Sponsored by The Tire Rack

[walkerkd]

I think we need to start a new post. what you guys think?
oh yea GUYS and must be flush with fenders or more

[woodman650]

?

Don't most people try to avoid this?

[Dave Mac]

Flush or MORE? I think you have your forums confuzzled. Most of us on here drive our cars so we like the suspension to work properly.

[BrokenVert]

I think thats an 80something Mustang. He has way too much camber on those tires.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by walkerkd

I think we need to start a new post. what you guys think?
oh yea GUYS and must be flush with fenders or more

You can be the first to have the most aggressive 1-series fitment. We all know that the rear fitment is particularly difficult for wider wheels. So the solution that will allow you to fit any offset 5x120 wheel you can lay your hands on is 20 25mm spacers on each side, together with a set of 530mm long lugbolts. This will allow you to fit at least a 345/35-18 tyre on a 12" wide rim at the back with an authentic BMW dragster look, no clearance issues at all!

[ichiban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I think thats an 80something Mustang. He has way too much camber on those tires.

looks like an e30 to me.

[ptack]

NIce way to keep a tire dealer happy.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by walkerkd

I think we need to start a new post. what you guys think?
oh yea GUYS and must be flush with fenders or more

Why not just buy wheels that actually fit the car?

[larryn]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Why not just buy wheels that actually fit the car?

Thanks for saying that!

Any wheels that require you to "stretch" tires on (put narrower tires than intended for the wheel) so that they do not rub are NOT "aggressive" They are the wrong fitment. Doing so greatly reduces performance and can be dangerous.

[mshahidz]

Originally Posted by larryn

Thanks for saying that!

Any wheels that require you to "stretch" tires on (put narrower tires than intended for the wheel) so that they do not rub are NOT "aggressive" They are the wrong fitment. Doing so greatly reduces performance and can be dangerous.

stretched tires reducing performance is a very debatable topic, so I wont go there.

Whatever floats peoples boats! I am a fan of aggressive fitment, but most people on this forum are feint hearted to say the least. A great bunch of people nonetheless


Next summer, I will be trying to fit some super aggressive wheels...stay tuned.

[MastaMind]

We're not faint-hearted, we just like wheels that fit. This hella flush/poke shit is ridiculous.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by mohammadz

stretched tires reducing performance is a very debatable topic, so I wont go there.

Whatever floats peoples boats! I am a fan of aggressive fitment, but most people on this forum are feint hearted to say the least. A great bunch of people nonetheless


Next summer, I will be trying to fit some super aggressive wheels...stay tuned.

I'll agree with "whatever floats your boat", but reducing performance is not debatable. You are crowning tires, which does not give the traction of proper usage of the tire, and is dangerous to have the sidewall non-vertical, unless the tire was specifically designed for it (like the Hoosier cantilever tires).

[mshahidz]

Not because I like to debate but...





It is easily understood that a small amount of stretch (nothing over-done) does NOT harm performance. In fact, a slight stretch helps the car change direction easily witht he stiffened sidewall, and angle of entry. Most track cars have a slight stretch because it aids in turn-in, and weight transfer.

Thing of it like this, a perfet amount of rubber, is good. Too much rubber and the car will show lots of body roll due to a softer sidewall. A slight stretch, say 245's on a 9-9.5" rim is not deterrent in terms of performance. Key word is "slight:

[fmxomar]

Originally Posted by mohammadz

Not because I like to debate but...





It is easily understood that a small amount of stretch (nothing over-done) does NOT harm performance. In fact, a slight stretch helps the car change direction easily witht he stiffened sidewall, and angle of entry. Most track cars have a slight stretch because it aids in turn-in, and weight transfer.

Thing of it like this, a perfet amount of rubber, is good. Too much rubber and the car will show lots of body roll due to a softer sidewall. A slight stretch, say 245's on a 9-9.5" rim is not deterrent in terms of performance. Key word is "slight:

thank you some one actually knows that slight stretch is actually good
p.s love aggressive fitment i test fitted 10.5 widened csl rears on my car and 9.5 fronts. will make it work when i get the funds

[larryn]

Originally Posted by mohammadz

Not because I like to debate but...

It is easily understood that a small amount of stretch (nothing over-done) does NOT harm performance. In fact, a slight stretch helps the car change direction easily witht he stiffened sidewall, and angle of entry. Most track cars have a slight stretch because it aids in turn-in, and weight transfer.

Thing of it like this, a perfet amount of rubber, is good. Too much rubber and the car will show lots of body roll due to a softer sidewall. A slight stretch, say 245's on a 9-9.5" rim is not deterrent in terms of performance. Key word is "slight:

Are you shitting me??? You choose pics of race cars going around corners with their wheels rolling over due to G Forces to try to prove your point??? I know and have been in that very Turner car, and it does NOT have stretched tires, and the Warsteiner car shows the exact same thing...

Please don't mislead people into thinking stretch is good, because it is not. It is nothing more than a "look" that you might like that has negative effects towards handling and safety.

[Victory Road]

Stretched tires is not unsafe in any way shape or form. I run a 235/40 on a 10" wheel on the street and track (drifting) and have yet to pop a bead. Once the tire is beaded the air pressure inside combined with the tight fitment of the bead around the wheel keeps it there.

Flush fitment and stretched tires IS FOR LOOKS. Anyone that says its better because of a stiffer sidewall or some other BS is wrong. Anyone that is street driving will not be able to tell the grip performance of stretched vs "properly sized" (assuming same tire size and just a wider wheel). Track cars I recommend "properly sized".

I am sure that many have different concept of Flush Fitment. Which is totally okay. Exactly the reason why we have customers with varied tastes and even trends in the market. I certainly don't think that it is "wrong fitment" Why is something wrong just because its new?

Also, since the concept of being Flush is varied, you don't have to run stretched tires to be flush in my opinion. All it takes is a fender roll and pushing the tires as close as possible to the fenders without rubbing.
Also, with a little bit of work you can have Flush wheel and tire combo that looks much more aggressive and fits a meatier tire than without a fender roll.

by the way, it looks so rad. Anyone that wants to be the first really aggressive 1er (stretched tires and rolled fenders), PLEASE give me a call or PM. I will hook it up cause I want to see this done.

Lastly, I respect anyones opinion that stretching tires does not look as good. But I for one believe in expanding the horizon of modding cars and not being close minded.....

[Victory Road]

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by rcracer_tx

Why not just buy wheels that actually fit the car?

There's a concept.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by frank@WSTO

Stretched tires is not unsafe in any way shape or form. I run a 235/40 on a 10" wheel on the street and track (drifting) and have yet to pop a bead. Once the tire is beaded the air pressure inside combined with the tight fitment of the bead around the wheel keeps it there.

Flush fitment and stretched tires IS FOR LOOKS. Anyone that says its better because of a stiffer sidewall or some other BS is wrong. Anyone that is street driving will not be able to tell the grip performance of stretched vs "properly sized" (assuming same tire size and just a wider wheel). Track cars I recommend "properly sized".

I am sure that many have different concept of Flush Fitment. Which is totally okay. Exactly the reason why we have customers with varied tastes and even trends in the market. I certainly don't think that it is "wrong fitment" Why is something wrong just because its new?

Also, since the concept of being Flush is varied, you don't have to run stretched tires to be flush in my opinion. All it takes is a fender roll and pushing the tires as close as possible to the fenders without rubbing.
Also, with a little bit of work you can have Flush wheel and tire combo that looks much more aggressive and fits a meatier tire than without a fender roll.

by the way, it looks so rad. Anyone that wants to be the first really aggressive 1er (stretched tires and rolled fenders), PLEASE give me a call or PM. I will hook it up cause I want to see this done.

Lastly, I respect anyones opinion that stretching tires does not look as good. But I for one believe in expanding the horizon of modding cars and not being close minded.....

I agree that doing stretched is aesthetics, and is subject to personal opinion as to it's looks. I'm not closedminded in that respect, if you reread my two posts in this thread.

I am saying that you are wrong to go against the tire manufacturer's test specifications. The tires are designed to work within certain tolerances. They plainly tell you what those tolerance are, and what is not safe to do.

Your quote of " Flush fitment and stretched tires IS FOR LOOKS." is dangerous to say. Your 235/40 tire can be mounted (according to specs) on up to a 9.5" wide wheel. You are barely pushing that on a 10" wide wheel, but you are using the tire beyond it's intended operational range. They design and test tires for falling within those allowances, and let you know what you can safely do.. NOT WHAT THEY THINK LOOKS BEST. You are a fool to think otherwise.

I believe it is negligent of you, if you sell wheels and are recommending for people to exceed the allowances for the intended purpose to safely operate those tires in.


I think the "aggressive" is being used as a misnomer. Aggressive to me is getting the wheel as close to the fender and still fit, but it seems to be also improperly used (IMO) to do anything to make wheels work that if they had proper tires fitted on them, they wouldn't fit.

[Victory Road]

Originally Posted by larryn

I am saying that you are wrong to go against the tire manufacturer's test specifications. The tires are designed to work within certain tolerances. They plainly tell you what those tolerance are, and what is not safe to do.

Your quote of " Flush fitment and stretched tires IS FOR LOOKS." is dangerous to say. Your 235/40 tire can be mounted (according to specs) on up to a 9.5" wide wheel. You are barely pushing that on a 10" wide wheel, but you are using the tire beyond it's intended operational range. They design and test tires for falling within those allowances, and let you know what you can safely do.. NOT WHAT THEY THINK LOOKS BEST. You are a fool to think otherwise.

I believe it is negligent of you, if you sell wheels and are recommending for people to exceed the allowances for the intended purpose to safely operate those tires in.

This another problem I have with the "safety" issue many people talk about. Your engine and your suspension was designed by BMW engineers with a margin of safety, and they sell these cars with that safety margin built in. Yet thousands of people up the power, change the suspension, put on bigger wheels and tires, etc. Why is it less safe to fit tires that push this margin of safety? Because Margin of safety that can be recommended by a certain tire company has to take into account their liability, warranty issues, and customer feedback. A tire engineer does not say, ok this is good for a 9.5" wheel AT MAX and than tells everyone that. He has a LARGE margin of safety built into that 9.5" recommendation to cover his a$$ under all circumstances. We as tuners repeatedly exploit that margin of safety to make our car faster, ride better, and look cooler.

Moreover, a lot of people hate engineers for this reasons. Engineers often live in a dream world full of theories...when reality can often come to conclusions an engineer would say is dangerous but works in real life (I am a degree'd mechanical engineer, I know this, haha).

For the record I have personally run 225 tires on 10" wheel with no problems, burnt those up till they completely delaminated and they still held air and were fully beaded. I have many friends that have gone as far as 225 on a 10.5" wheel with the same results (and seen even more aggressive stretches that I personally think looks dumb). I have never ever ever, seen a stretched wheel and tire combo pop, debead, or otherwise malfunction under normal circumstances. And this is seeing both street and track time, track time (drifting) with tire temperatures and stress that can exceed normal grip track time. (if you couldn't tell I'm an avid drifter, haha)

For the record, we will not mount tires outside of the recommended wheel width for liability reasons. Not because I personally believe there will be a problem, but we could also get in trouble if a normal blow out happens and someone claims it was due to the tire/wheel combo. Again, we have to cover ourselves for liability reasons, even if we know there will not be a problem...just like that BMW and tire engineer.

I say all of this running the risk of inadvertently giving WSTO a bad name. This is just my personal opinion, and in no means am I "attacking" anyone. Just trying to have a pleasant conversation and hopefully educate some people on the matter.

The great thing about cars is we can all do things differently. I just don't like that many people are under the impression that it is wrong because it is dangerous, or wrong because it is a new way of doing things.

[larryn]

Do what you need to do, but I think it is severely hypocritical to make a business decision to never mount stretched tires for others, because of "liability issues", and condone it so far as to tell people that it is perfectly safe to do so.

I vehemently disagree with you, but then again, I don't play with fire or run with scissors either.

I'm out of this thread.

[ichiban]

Personal experience is personal experience. I'm sure WSTO advices customers in the matter, but ultimately it's the customer who decides to go for which ever look they want. They take in the manufacture's recommended figures along with precedent cases. There's nothing wrong with a little variety in how you mount the tires. Just my 2 cents.