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[TheRuss]

Hi folks, I recently picked up some Apex Arc-8 wheels for my 135i and fitted them with 235/40/18 Pirelli PZeros up front and 265/35/18 Pirelli PZeros on the rear. I wasn't expecting them to rub from what I'd read, but have just had the rear wheels off and found that the driver's side rear (my car is RHD) has a rub mark on the inner wheel arch liner. Pics below:





There is no rub mark on the passenger side. Now what would be my best course of action here? A small spacer, like 2 or 3mm? And what sort of spacer do I need? Do I need to extend the hub lip at all to ensure the wheel seats properly? And when people get extended bolts, what do they do about the locking wheel bolt?

Sorry about all the questions, but I just want to get this sorted ASAP before damage is done. Also, when I jack the rear end up, both wheels end up resting on the wheel arch liner. As such, I can't rotate the wheels when they're in the air, which seems dangerous to me, as I don't want the wheels suddenly stopping when I'm driving, or even just dragging.

Also, you may notice the different dampers on my car - the car has an aftermarket suspension kit, but the rear end is the same height as stock, it isn't slammed or anything.

Thanks in advance.

Russ

[TheRuss]

For reference, here's the other side:

[TheRuss]

Here's the ride height.



And the rear wheel from the outside to show the room to the arch.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

That's very odd to see. While a 3mm or 5mm spacer should alleviate the issue, the problem should not exist in the first place. That's the first time we've heard that the Pirelli PZeros have issues, have you checked alignment settings to make sure that they are within OEM specifications? We've heard of some 1-series having rubbing issues and alleviating it after realigning their cars, so that might be a possible solution. Also, is the liner on the side that is rubbing deformed in any way compared to the other side? Or missing some mounting clips? That could also be a reason.

[TheRuss]

Hi David. No clips missing and it's not out of shape (won't even push back any further). I had the alignment done recently when I had my suspension kit fitted. In fact it was done twice because the wheel was slightly off the first time, so I went back a week later. That was on a Hunter geometry machine.

Also, I've noticed today that both front tyres are rubbing the front struts as well, leaving two rubber marks on each strut. It looks like I may have to space the front as well, but I'm not sure that I have enough clearance to the fender lips. The front end has M3 tension rods and lower arms, plus I knocked the camber pins out for a bit more camber. Do you think I could get a 3mm spacer up front?

Lastly, the tyre is hitting the oil cooler grille, just as another member on here had. Only does it on full lock though, so I'm less worried about that.

Needless to say, this isn't the "fit and forget" experience that I was expecting. I thought I'd have no trouble with this, as I'm running conservative sizes compared to some people. So why am I rubbing on 3 of 4 corners?

I should add that my suspension kit is a "driving" kit, specifically for the UK's roads, so isn't particularly low (rear is basically stock height) or anything. Also, I weigh next to nothing, so it's not like I'm weighing the suspension down so it touches. I have also been avoiding potholes like the plague since fitting the new wheels, and only casually drove the car to work (mostly highway) for 4 days, so not like I've been offroading or racing or anything.

What should I do? 3mm spacers all round?

[135iam]

Originally Posted by David@ApexRaceParts

That's very odd to see. While a 3mm or 5mm spacer should alleviate the issue, the problem should not exist in the first place. That's the first time we've heard that the Pirelli PZeros have issues, have you checked alignment settings to make sure that they are within OEM specifications? We've heard of some 1-series having rubbing issues and alleviating it after realigning their cars, so that might be a possible solution. Also, is the liner on the side that is rubbing deformed in any way compared to the other side? Or missing some mounting clips? That could also be a reason.

I have been PM'ing with the OP trying to help find a solution. He is also rubbing in the front in 2 locations (oil cooler cover and inside strut) like in this thread.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965156

Those Pirelli tires do look meaty in those pics

[TheRuss]

Yeah, they stick out further than expected, but they're an old design now, so I don't think they've been changed recently. They were actually recommended to me as being a good tyre for fitment (I.e. Not oversize), but something is causing this rubbing.

Luckily, my fenders haven't got any signs of rubbing, despite the fronts being quite far stuck out already. So perhaps I could use a small spacer (3mm?) and roll the fender lips slightly (if that's even possible on these - the front lip already goes under and upwards, so I'm not sure if it can be rolled?)

Also, just because I've not hit the fenders yet, doesn't mean I won't with some enthusiastic driving, which is what worries me. I've driven quite sedately so far since the wheels have been on.

What I will say, is that it appears that the rear tyre wouldn't rub if the rear was lower, as the wheel would be up further in the arch and therefore might miss the bit it's hitting. I'm not even sure it's permanently rubbing - as I've done 120 miles-ish since fitting and the rub is minimal. Maybe it only rubs when the suspension is unloaded? As for the fronts, I cleaned the rubber marks off the struts and the paint was still underneath, so I guess they aren't rubbing too bad either. As such, I'm hoping small spacers could cure it...

Thoughts? I don't want to spend a load of money on spacers and extended hardware to just run into more issues with the fenders.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

That's very odd, we have definitely not heard of anything like this especially with alignment specifications set as OEM and even when 1-series owners use the meatier tires such as Michelin PSS, Dunlop DZII, and Hankook RS3s. Going back to your photos in the first post, the tires surely do look much meatier than most other street tires. A spacer would alleviate the issue in the rear, but the front rubbing can be due to the caster being off, and having a spacer might not change anything as the tire is coming in contact at the fender liner. It will, however, alleviate any issue that you are having with it hitting the struts in the front, which leads us to believe that the Pirellis run wider than others since this isn't an issue with any other street tires from our experience. We have heard of this being an issue for those with aftermarket oil coolers, but from what I've gathered, your car is mostly OEM.

If you do use a small spacer in the front, you would need to try to maximize the negative camber so that you can allow for better fender clearance in the front, which can be done by pulling the alignment pins on the top of your front struts. There is a chance that because the Pirellis are so tall, you may need a lower aspect ratio for the front tires to have adequate clearance, but we are really curious to see if anyone else has run the Pirelli tires on the same car before to see if they also had the same issues.

[TheRuss]

Originally Posted by David@ApexRaceParts

That's very odd, we have definitely not heard of anything like this especially with alignment specifications set as OEM and even when 1-series owners use the meatier tires such as Michelin PSS, Dunlop DZII, and Hankook RS3s. Going back to your photos in the first post, the tires surely do look much meatier than most other street tires. A spacer would alleviate the issue in the rear, but the front rubbing can be due to the caster being off, and having a spacer might not change anything as the tire is coming in contact at the fender liner. It will, however, alleviate any issue that you are having with it hitting the struts in the front, which leads us to believe that the Pirellis run wider than others since this isn't an issue with any other street tires from our experience. We have heard of this being an issue for those with aftermarket oil coolers, but from what I've gathered, your car is mostly OEM.

If you do use a small spacer in the front, you would need to try to maximize the negative camber so that you can allow for better fender clearance in the front, which can be done by pulling the alignment pins on the top of your front struts. There is a chance that because the Pirellis are so tall, you may need a lower aspect ratio for the front tires to have adequate clearance, but we are really curious to see if anyone else has run the Pirelli tires on the same car before to see if they also had the same issues.

Hi David, camber pins are already out... Is it worth me doing a quick video to show how the car stands, so you can advise if I'm likely to be able to use spacers?

[TheRuss]

Also, the oil cooler grille issue has been brought up on here before by somebody else with an OEM oil cooler and different brand of tyre.

[TheRuss]

Ok, so I fitted new brake discs and pads at the same time as the wheels and then noticed a noise on moderate braking. I initially attributed it to the new grooved discs, however, listening to it this morning I'm betting that's when the tyres are hitting the front struts. Anything more than a whisper on the brake pedal and I get the hum from the front wheels.

[TheRuss]

Here's a video of the wheels all round. The rears can probably take a spacer, but I'm not sure about the front. And would a 3mm spacer even solve the problem?

[TheRuss]

Hi David, anything? This is my daily, so I need assistance ASAP please.

[TheRuss]

Bump. Not exactly what I was expecting when I bought these wheels - rubbing all round and no customer support...

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Russ, I've brought this to the attention of my manager and we are diligently working on finding more details that may have caused your tire rubbing. We are working with our fitment experts to consult with the data that we have to understand how your setup can be modified to alleviate the tire rub. I'd like to note that tire rubbing like that, which is commonly experienced by racers and other models with aggressive fitments, has no negative effects on drivability, so there is no immediate issue. We're working on a thorough response as the expert on this fitment is unavailable until next week.

[TheRuss]

Thanks David, please do keep me up to date - I've also opened a query ticket directly on your website. Although the rear rub shown won't effect driveability, I don't want to damage the fender liners by driving the car around like this for too long. I'm nursing it everywhere and trying to stay off the brakes as best possible to stop the front tyres from rubbing on the struts. Again, I don't particularly want all the paint rubbed off of them or to do any damage.

At this point I'm considering fitting smaller tyres, which will cost me money that I can ill afford and also defy the point of having these wheels. I have 225/40/18 and 255/35/18 as my winter setup on stock wheels without rubbing, yet I'm not 100% sure that summer tyres of this size wouldn't rub on the Arc-8's so I could potentially spend another £500+ and still have rubbing issues.

[135iam]

Here Are a few thoughts on what I would do based on what you im'ed me and what you've posted.

You posted something about your rear springs being softer than stock. If true this is doing you no go. Softer rear springs cause increased rear lift under braking resulting in increased brake dive, increased understeer while cornering at the limit due to additional suspension compression (on a car that already understeers too much). If you rear springs are actually softer than stock I would get rid of them ASAP. Stock rear springs are rated at 350lbs, the ones I have are 550. (With this brake dive is significantly less than stock) add 3mm spacer if needed.

According to tirerack.com specs your tires are some of the biggest in their size compared to competitors 235/40's. Others with 235/40/18 fronts have posted about rubbing (re-11 and zz2's I believe) when lowering the front.
With m3 front arms and the camber pins removed you should be able to get around -1.7 camber. Where are you at?
For this I would ensure your alignment has the neg camber maxed out and install a 3" spacer. You "may" have to do a minor front fender roll, but I would cross that bridge when you get there.

[TheRuss]

Thanks for the suggestions. With regards to your first point, I don't want to stiffen the rear springs at all - the suspension is that way on purpose. The kit I have is designed by Birds BMW in the UK and they had Bilstein and Eibach set the springs and dampers as such to optimise grip and driveability on the UK's poor roads. The whole kit is the result of lots of R&D and testing and is very well received in the UK. One of the main issues with the 1 series is the overly stiff rear and the poor damping on that end. Since the kit was installed the rear end is much less crashy and more compliant. It is too stiff from the factory because the springs are doing the duties of body roll prevention in the absence of a proper sway bar (the standard one is pathetically small.)

My car has a Quaife diff and uprated sway bars front and rear. The rear one is much larger than stock, the front one is only a tiny bit bigger, to the extent that it fits into the OEM bushes even.

Hopefully a 5mm spacer on the rear will fix my rubbing - what do you think?

As for the fronts, I think the camber is already maxed out. I knocked the camber pins out and pushed the struts over as far as possible, and now have the M3 parts as well. When I had the alignment done the front camber was the only thing out of OEM tolerances because the OEM settings for front camber are really low and I obviously had more neg camber than BMW want. I'll try to find the print out to see how much I had.

Would I be able to get a 5mm spacer up front if I get the Dinan camber plates? I doubt they will bring the top of the wheel in by 5mm, but they will at least increase the front ride height a bit, won't they?
Thanks again for your help with this, I really appreciate it.

[135iam]

Interesting, we are drinking different Kool-aid as far as suspension tuning is concerned. I would love to exercise a one series set up the way you are discribing and see what my "seat of the pants" impression is.

Anyway, as far as spacers are concerned I think 3mm spacers would be ideal and 5mm should work. I would stick with 3mm in the front, either size should fit in the back.
On my car with the same sized wheel/tire combo in the back and a 3mm spacer I have lots of room to the outside fender with a lowered ride height and -1.5 camber in the rear. I could easily go up a tire size or two.

[TheRuss]

Thanks - how much room do you have to the inner fender? From my pic in my first post it looks like I'm only rubbing very lightly, but still, would a 3 mm spacer be sufficient?

Also,only the front I'm not sure if a 3mm spacer would do the trick - I left two rubber lines on the strut that wiped off, but when I brake I can hear the fronts rubbing. Last thing I want to do is buy a 3mm spacer, then find that I'm still rubbing the struts under braking.

Honestly, if I'd known it'd be so much hassle with this setup I'd have stuck to stock rim dimensions and 225/40 and 255/35 tyres. That's my winter setup and I don't have any issues. I thought he high offset wheels would easily allow me to run the extra 10mm all round without rubbing, but it appears that's not the case.

[TheRuss]

Here's a few more photos of the front strut rubbing, how the wheels sit in the arches and the gap between arch and strut:

[TheRuss]

Hi David, any news? Still running round on my winters...