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      06-07-2020, 03:12 PM   #1
kaputt
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Camber plates or not?

How much camber should I be able to get out of the front of the car with just M3 front control arms and the BMW Performance suspension installed?

Can a good alignment shop get you much past the stock settings, or do you need to start doing things like pulling the pins or adding camber plates to get a noticeable difference?

Also what is a good front camber setting on these cars (128i or 135i) that’s great for a canyon carving street car and maybe occasional track day but won’t absolutely destroy your tire life?
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      06-07-2020, 05:49 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaputt View Post
How much camber should I be able to get out of the front of the car with just M3 front control arms and the BMW Performance suspension installed?

Can a good alignment shop get you much past the stock settings, or do you need to start doing things like pulling the pins or adding camber plates to get a noticeable difference?

Also what is a good front camber setting on these cars (128i or 135i) that’s great for a canyon carving street car and maybe occasional track day but won’t absolutely destroy your tire life?
I got 0.9 / 0.8 deg left / right. You get what you get without pulling the pins and/or plates is my understanding. My pins are still in.
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      06-07-2020, 06:27 PM   #3
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Yes around 0.8 to 0.9 degree is what I got as well. It is ideal for street driving IMO.

For track driving, more -ve front camber will help. It needs to be at around -2.5 degrees or more to make a significant difference. You need to have the rear subframe bushings upgraded before adding camber plates, otherwise the car may be unstable or otherwise fairly ordinary to drive.
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      06-08-2020, 11:59 AM   #4
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Appreciate the responses. Yeah I’m at 0.8 on both sides. I just bought the E93 front sway bar and was just thinking if the front camber plates may compliment that mod.

I’m holding off on replacing the Performance Suspension for now since its so new and I just can’t bring myself to pay for a complete suspension install twice in such a short span.

I do already have the M3 rear bushings in. That was the second best mod I’ve done to the car. First being the Performance Exhaust.
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      06-08-2020, 01:00 PM   #5
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Look into how the sway bar and the camber can counter each other, if you're trying to dial out understeer. I've seen folks write that bigger bar up front reduces it, others that it increases it. I don't have an answer but recommend looking into it.

You can also check out your tire wear. If it's fairly even consider sticking with where you are. If the outsides are worn, it's pretty safe to say you could add some camber and not hurt anything.

Tire width is a big factor, if you can fit more rubber up front it might do what you need with that alone. Your toe settings play in a bit as well, depending again on exactly what you want to do (if it's understeer is it at the beginning or end of an autocross turn, a long high speed track corner?). And, for most of us, a little understeer is a safe thing to keep the handling more predictable, so your goals and experience here are a thing as well.

I'll suggest, in case you haven't already, decide what problem you want to solve and why. Then work at it. Something I find myself doing is getting bored, reading a lot, and then modding the car to solve problems I don't honestly actually have. Not always, but it's happened.
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      06-08-2020, 01:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Look into how the sway bar and the camber can counter each other, if you're trying to dial out understeer. I've seen folks write that bigger bar up front reduces it, others that it increases it. I don't have an answer but recommend looking into it.
This is a good write up of the theory of how a sway bar can help reduce understeer with a strut suspension.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/why-y...bar-1733925447
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      06-08-2020, 01:57 PM   #7
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With alignment pins removed, you should be able to get around -1.2 to -1.5. The lower the ride height, the more you'll be able to get.

For a fun daily, I'd highly, HIGHLY recommend Dinan camber plates. No additional NVH like race plates, and they give you enough that you'll won't be wanting for more grip on the street, but won't be cursing them for eating away at your tires. I ran them for years and enjoyed them, especially since they're so affordable.

I have a used pair for sale if you'd like, even have almost-new OEM top mounts with them as well. https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1711518
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      06-08-2020, 02:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
This is a good write up of the theory of how a sway bar can help reduce understeer with a strut suspension.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/why-y...bar-1733925447
I removed my front sway bar, and I'm not going back.

BUT, I have enough front spring rate to let me do that without causing an issue instead, and enough ride height to take advantage of the small camber curve in the front suspension.
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      06-08-2020, 02:13 PM   #9
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With appropriate negative camber for MacPh and spring rates for weight (6-7k) you want a flexible front bar. For us that means stock 135i or 128i bar which depends on the tire and front spring ratio.

Otherwise you'll push.



FWIW having run almost every setup I can think of im a BIG fan of Dinan fixed plates.
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      06-08-2020, 04:31 PM   #10
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Also have the Dinan fixed plates + M3 LCW + B12 suspension. I could get -2.5, had it dialed back to -1.8 as it's a mostly street driven car (the pins are removed so you get some range of motion).

They are maintenance free (the plates) and a great upgrade. Just keep in mind they will raise the front by 5mm or so (their thickness) compared to an otherwise identical car without them. This worked out perfectly for me as all things being equal, the B12 has a tiny bit of rake built into it which I don't like, the plates evened it all up....
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      06-08-2020, 05:10 PM   #11
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This is good discussion here. Putting together some of what I'm reading, for a canyon carver vehicle, the e93 M3 front sway, M3 front control arms, and Dinan camber plates could work together to produce a pretty good compromise of grip, feedback, and turn in without destroying your front tires and keeping some safe understeer built in?

My main complaint with the vehicle is light/loose steering feel at speed. The Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+'s I put on the car improved the feel A LOT over the Conti DWS06's I bought the car with, but its still not 100% there.

In the two SmokingTire videos where they review 135i's, both Matt and Zack discuss the same light steering feeling and describe it very similarly to how I would. Both also recommend more camber and an alignment as the fixes. Subsequently the SmokingTire guys also review a couple of e9X's that have more camber dialed in (one even has the Dinan plates I think) plus high quality alignments and the steering feedback gets great reviews.
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      06-08-2020, 05:22 PM   #12
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Small changes to toe can change the steering feel. Alignment settings are a bit of black magic - you can research stock settings for a large variety of legit sports cars and see an interesting range of settings. Compounded by opinions of experienced racers who know what they are doing. I tried to figure out "best settings" a while back, and realized there is no such thing. Driving style, car weight, power, springs, bars, target audience, etc. all factor in.

Anyhow - toe alone can affect steering feel.
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      06-08-2020, 06:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaputt View Post
How much camber should I be able to get out of the front of the car with just M3 front control arms and the BMW Performance suspension installed?

Can a good alignment shop get you much past the stock settings, or do you need to start doing things like pulling the pins or adding camber plates to get a noticeable difference?

Also what is a good front camber setting on these cars (128i or 135i) that’s great for a canyon carving street car and maybe occasional track day but won’t absolutely destroy your tire life?
Around a degree more. More negative if you lower the vehicle further.

Yes, as long as their equipment is capable of line of sight at your desired settings. Some machines, for some reason, lose line of sight over 2 degrees negative.

For a street car that is driven aggressively, you can tolerate around 2 degrees negative at zero toe. Rear can be anywhere between -1.5 to -2 with 3/16" toe if you have OEM toe arms and 1/8" if you have heim joint style adjustable arms.
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      06-10-2020, 12:29 AM   #14
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Thank you everyone for the info. Super helpful. I am planning to take my car to West End Alignment here in LA, which is well known for quality suspension work. Right now I think I’m just going to have them do an alignment and see what I can get from where the car is at now, and also have them put the M3 front bar on.

Although snagging the Dinan Camber plates is still floating in the back of my mind.
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      06-10-2020, 03:15 PM   #15
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I'm in sort of the same boat as the OP except I live in flat south Florida. I have a square wheel setup that I purchased with the intent to run a square set up once I needed new tires.

Alex's support guide says you can fit 255 up front with -2.5 and a spacer, but is that too much for daily driving especially given that I'm driving on flat highways?

I guess now I need to look into the Dinan fixed plates vs the ground control street plates to see how each work.
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      06-10-2020, 05:27 PM   #16
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Just ordered and received a set of the Dinan fixed chamber plates direct from Dinan. I've been disillusioned with the steering for 3 years now when compared with my son's e90 and my daughters F56 MINI. I've already done all of the suspension upgrades, so hopefully this is the ticket to faster then in.
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      06-10-2020, 05:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a4nut View Post
Just ordered and received a set of the Dinan fixed chamber plates direct from Dinan. I've been disillusioned with the steering for 3 years now when compared with my son's e90 and my daughters F56 MINI. I've already done all of the suspension upgrades, so hopefully this is the ticket to faster then in.
How soon do you plan to do the install? Sounds like we have very similar complaints.
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      06-10-2020, 05:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by asbrr View Post
Also have the Dinan fixed plates + M3 LCW + B12 suspension. I could get -2.5, had it dialed back to -1.8 as it's a mostly street driven car (the pins are removed so you get some range of motion).

They are maintenance free (the plates) and a great upgrade. Just keep in mind they will raise the front by 5mm or so (their thickness) compared to an otherwise identical car without them. This worked out perfectly for me as all things being equal, the B12 has a tiny bit of rake built into it which I don't like, the plates evened it all up....
I was holding off on the B12 kit because of the rake. Hearing that the Dinan camber plates fixes it, I'm ordering both!

Also wondering where you ordered from since I'm also in Toronto.
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      06-10-2020, 05:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by AshwinLB View Post
I was holding off on the B12 kit because of the rake. Hearing that the Dinan camber plates fixes it, I'm ordering both!

Also wondering where you ordered from since I'm also in Toronto.
Cool.

Alpha Motorsports (ask for Mo, owner) had the best price by far, they are in Markham and made the whole hassle of importing / duties etc go away.

Make sure you get all new spring mounting/and shock mount hardware (spring pads, shock mounts etc etc) If your car has anywhere above 70K kms, worth it to do a full refresh. When you buy the upper strut mounts for the front, buy the HD model - they are tougher and built better to deal with a stiffer suspension. Also consider upgrading your rear upper shock mounts, Dinan makes a set, or the Meyle HD versions are a good OE+ replacement. Last but not least - think about doing RSFB - if you're refreshing the suspension, that's a big reason to fix the factory slop in the subframe. Oh and get rid of runflats.

It's a rabbit hole
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      06-10-2020, 05:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a4nut View Post
Just ordered and received a set of the Dinan fixed chamber plates direct from Dinan. I've been disillusioned with the steering for 3 years now when compared with my son's e90 and my daughters F56 MINI. I've already done all of the suspension upgrades, so hopefully this is the ticket to faster then in.
Are you not happy with the grip level or the feel? In my experience, you'll get much improved grip. The feel is going to probably go down a notch with the extra camber, which you can fight back on with adjustments to Toe and then tire combos.
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      06-10-2020, 06:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asbrr View Post
Cool.

Alpha Motorsports (ask for Mo, owner) had the best price by far, they are in Markham and made the whole hassle of importing / duties etc go away.

Make sure you get all new spring mounting/and shock mount hardware (spring pads, shock mounts etc etc) If your car has anywhere above 70K kms, worth it to do a full refresh. When you buy the upper strut mounts for the front, buy the HD model - they are tougher and built better to deal with a stiffer suspension. Also consider upgrading your rear upper shock mounts, Dinan makes a set, or the Meyle HD versions are a good OE+ replacement. Last but not least - think about doing RSFB - if you're refreshing the suspension, that's a big reason to fix the factory slop in the subframe. Oh and get rid of runflats.

It's a rabbit hole
Thanks so much for the quick reply! I'm at 183k so I am very, very due to refresh everything. Somehow went 40k without doing any suspension mods. I'm done with my power mods for now so I'm fully focused on suspension. Will definitely look into doing all of your recommendations.Really excited for how the car will feel after. I actually just got my solid RSFB last week, installing this weekend! Got rid of the runflats as soon as I could with Pilot Sport 4s on Apexs. Made a huge difference.

Yes I quickly realized that so many options

Last edited by AshwinLB; 06-10-2020 at 06:23 PM..
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      06-10-2020, 06:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaputt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4nut View Post
Just ordered and received a set of the Dinan fixed chamber plates direct from Dinan. I've been disillusioned with the steering for 3 years now when compared with my son's e90 and my daughters F56 MINI. I've already done all of the suspension upgrades, so hopefully this is the ticket to faster then in.
How soon do you plan to do the install? Sounds like we have very similar complaints.
I'm doing it next week.

As for what's my complaint? It's not feel, rather the slow turn in. It's just not crisp. Both the e90 and F56 are more responsive...hard to put into words
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