Installed rear M3 upper arms, need more toe adjustability

[MightyMouseTech]

So I installed the common rear M3 upper control arms on my car using the TRW parts.

Very common mod, so I hope others have run into this.

I used to run 1.9 deg neg camber on my car before the swap. After the swap, I was only able to get to -1.6 before I ran out of toe adjustment in the rear.

I basically had to set the rear toe to maximum, then keep dialing back the camber till the toe came within spec.

It would appear the M3 rear upper arms are slightly longer than the stock 135i arms.

To fix this, it would appear I need to install slightly longer toe arms. Does anyone know if the M3 versions are slightly longer than the 135i toe arms?

Hoping for a simple solution to get my rear camber back. Would like to stick to OE or OEM parts.

Thanks in advance.

[MightyMouseTech]

After searching, found the M3 toe arms are actually shorter than the 135i version. Will require more searching.

[ShocknAwe]

Yeah the M3 toe arms will definitely not work.

HP Autowerks has an adjustable toe arm. I'm sure there are other adjustable toe arms out there as well.

http://www.hpashop.com/HP-Autosport-...2-e9x-nonM.htm

EDIT: looks like it may be made by RE.

[fe1rx]

The Guide Rods are definitely the same length:



The pin-to-pin length of the upper arm is 273 mm. I thought I had confirmed that this was the same as for the OE arm, but I don't have any photo evidence of having done so:



I can manage -2.1° rear camber and zero toe before I run out of adjustment. That is ok because it is very close to what my planned alignment was, but it would be nice to have a bit more flexibility.

When ORB made his rear toe arms he made them 3 mm longer than OE. I made mine the same as OE. If I were doing it again I would follow ORB's lead on this to get that extra adjustment.

[MightyMouseTech]

Hmm, going to have to check if something else is going on. Although, an extra 3mm would be great. (TWSS?) And this is before the car is even lowered. Quite the difference between 1.6 and the 2.1 you are able to run.

[Pig Farmer]

I started running into rear toe issues recently after installing a LSD and turning up the boost. The rear end pulls hard to the right then wiggles back and forth all the way to the next gear change. I'm not sure if the additional torque knocked my alignment out of spec, or if the OE bushings are deforming under the additional stress. I did noticed that after the first WOT pull where I experienced this new behavior, my steering wheel is off center (about 5 degrees to the right). Getting under the car, there's no visible damage to the bushings or toe arms, but I figure a new set of adjustable toe arms may be in order. I'm not a huge fan of spherical bearings (if they are not sealed like the M3 bearings)... too many horror stories of people needing to replace the bearings every six months. I came across a reasonably priced alternative to the HPA and RE adjustable toe links that use "hard rubber" bushings. They are made by a company called Manzo and cost a buck twenty five. I figure they're cheap enough to give them a try (until Fe1rx starts to manufacture a proper toe link :-) )

http://www.manzousa.com/index.php/pr...-m-models.html

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

I started running into rear toe issues recently after installing a LSD and turning up the boost. The rear end pulls hard to the right then wiggles back and forth all the way to the next gear change. I'm not sure if the additional torque knocked my alignment out of spec, or if the OE bushings are deforming under the additional stress. I did noticed that after the first WOT pull where I experienced this new behavior, my steering wheel is off center (about 5 degrees to the right). Getting under the car, there's no visible damage to the bushings or toe arms, but I figure a new set of adjustable toe arms may be in order. I'm not a huge fan of spherical bearings (if they are not sealed like the M3 bearings)... too many horror stories of people needing to replace the bearings every six months. I came across a reasonably priced alternative to the HPA and RE adjustable toe links that use "hard rubber" bushings. They are made by a company called Manzo and cost a buck twenty five. I figure they're cheap enough to give them a try (until Fe1rx starts to manufacture a proper toe link :-) )

http://www.manzousa.com/index.php/pr...-m-models.html

We really need to put together a sticky with all the upgrade parts on it.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

We really need to put together a sticky with all the upgrade parts on it.

Put it together and I will make it a STICKY.

MightyMouseTech I would contact Harold HP Autosport I'm pretty sue he sells the Rouge Engineering arms that can correct for this problem. Its even worse when you lower the car.


Dackel

[MightyMouseTech]

Sounds like something else may be going as well.

Would prefer to stay OE, or sealed as well as OE, as my car is driven year round, and I live in the city with the highest salt use in the entire world. Echt!

[houtan]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Sounds like something else may be going as well.

Would prefer to stay OE, or sealed as well as OE, as my car is driven year round, and I live in the city with the highest salt use in the entire world. Echt!

are you on stock suspension or aftermarket?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by houtan

are you on stock suspension or aftermarket?

Shocks/springs are stock.

Just have M3; front arms, rear upper arms, RSFB, then Dinan front camber plates.

[dcaron9999]

Im in the same shoes as PigFarmer. I ordered a set of Manzo toe arms last week. Want to maintain solid toe, and a bit more camber adjustments with the power Im now making. In addition, car is now lowered on Swift Spec-R springs and Bilstein B8 dampers. With lowered car, my max rear camber is limited to -1.8* in the rear, with a slight toe in.

Not related but Im also getting my GC street camber plates modified to get a thicker stack height (modifications to pointer plate, and spacer) to raise the front by 22mm, due to 25mm rake I ended with after installing Swift Spec-R springs and GC camber plates.

[Pig Farmer]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Im in the same shoes as PigFarmer. I ordered a set of Manzo toe arms last week.

Just an FYI... I installed the Manzo toe arms yesterday and the problem is solved. The bushings have less deflection and are hard rubber so there's zero noise. You can feel the firmness, which is similar to the feeling you get when switching to M3 RSFBs, but it's not harsh at all. I was only able to do a quick string alignment (to get the toe reasonable close) and the car tracks straight during WOT pulls with zero waggle. Can't wait to get a proper alignment.

Oh, one last thing to note... There's plenty of thread on the end to make crazy + or - toe adjustments if necessary.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

Just an FYI... I installed the Manzo toe arms yesterday and the problem is solved. The bushings have less deflection and are hard rubber so there's zero noise. You can feel the firmness, which is similar to the feeling you get when switching to M3 RSFBs, but it's not harsh at all. I was only able to do a quick string alignment (to get the toe reasonable close) and the car tracks straight during WOT pulls with zero waggle. Can't wait to get a proper alignment.

Oh, one last thing to note... There's plenty of thread on the end to make crazy + or - toe adjustments if necessary.

Looking good! Thanks for the mini review! Should get mine within 24-48 hours.

Doesn't look too hard to install. I suppose you only tighten both ends, once suspension is loaded?

Mind sharing how you did your "string alignment"? I want to follow in your footsteps, and not pay for two alignments. I want to wait for my camber plate spacers, and do another four wheel alignment then, in about 1-2 weeks.

[Pig Farmer]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Looking good! Thanks for the mini review! Should get mine within 24-48 hours.

Doesn't look too hard to install. I suppose you only tighten both ends, once suspension is loaded?

Mind sharing how you did your "string alignment"? I want to follow in your footsteps, and not pay for two alignments. I want to wait for my camber plate spacers, and do another four wheel alignment then, in about 1-2 weeks.

The install is pretty simple but the suspension does need to be weighted before torquing the bolts which makes it a tight job without an alignment rack. With the car on a flat surface, begin by marking the eccentric washer where the toe arm is bolted to the subframe. Jack up the rear of the car, set it on jack stands and remove the wheels. Unbolt the OE toe arm. You will need two 18mm sockets. The inboard bolt head is reached from the front side of the subframe, and there is a plastic cover/door that hinges from the top that needs to be opened to reach the bolt. Once removed, use the OE toe arm to set the initial length of the Manzo toe arm. Snug up the nuts on the Manzo end links by hand and install on the car. With the rear of the car on jack stands (and the front end blocked) I used a floor jack to load the rear suspension (one side at a time) until the car lifted slightly off the jack stand then I torqued the bolts to 74 ft/lbs making sure to line up the eccentric washer to its original location. Reinstall the wheels and take it for a short test drive. You may find that the steering wheel is not centered. If the steering wheel is tilted to the left, the left wheel has positive toe, or less negative toe than the right wheel (and visa versa).

The idea behind string alighning the car is to run two parallel strings down the side of the car so you can measure toe in/toe out in relationship to the strings. The key is to get the strings parallel to the car. You will need enough string to run down each side of the car and extend a few feet past the bumpers. You will also need something like jack stands (4) to hold the string tight at a height that crosses through the center of the hubs/center caps. Once you have the strings set up on the jack stands, move the jack stands so that the strings are running down the side of the car about an inch from the tires. Now measure the distance from the string to the center cap. Adjust the jack stands until the distance to the rear center cap is equal on each side, but not touching the tires. Now measure and record the distance between the strings behind the rear bumper. Move the front jack stands so that the distance between the strings in the front is equal to the measurement taken at the rear. Now measure the distance from the string to the front center cap on each side. Adjust the jack stands so the distance between the stings and center cap is equal on both front wheels, but maintaining the measured distance between the strings. This takes a few adjustments and it helps to have two people. When the strings are parallel, the distance between the center caps and strings in the front may not equal the distance between the string and center caps in the rear. Once the strings are parallel, you can take measurements from the string to the wheels to get a sense of where you are toed in or toed out. Now adjust the Manzo toe arms until you're happy with the toe and tighten the nuts on the end links.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

So I installed the common rear M3 upper control arms on my car using the TRW parts.

Very common mod, so I hope others have run into this.

I used to run 1.9 deg neg camber on my car before the swap. After the swap, I was only able to get to -1.6 before I ran out of toe adjustment in the rear.

I basically had to set the rear toe to maximum, then keep dialing back the camber till the toe came within spec.

It would appear the M3 rear upper arms are slightly longer than the stock 135i arms.

To fix this, it would appear I need to install slightly longer toe arms. Does anyone know if the M3 versions are slightly longer than the 135i toe arms?

Hoping for a simple solution to get my rear camber back. Would like to stick to OE or OEM parts.

Thanks in advance.

Sounds like you should order the rest of the M3 suspension for the rear. A complete conversion!

[fe1rx]

Changes in toe setting affect camber setting and vice-versa. Presumably you are getting these adjustable links to change your toe, not to keep it what it was, so you really need a full rear alignment if you install these adjustable links.

Putting the car on ramp stands will make access under the car much better for torquing the toe adjustment bolt. Only problem is you need 4 of them to get the car level and with the correct load on the rear wheels. If you use front jack stands instead the load on the rears is reduced.

The OE adjuster really wants to move when you torque the nut. A second person under the car to hold it would help a lot (which is possible on ramp stands). Of course if you bite the bullet and realize that you really need to run strings anyway, it doesn't really matter where the adjuster ends up (but for the sake of consistency, I suggest putting it in the same place both sides).

Really the suspension needs to be settled before finalizing any adjustment. This is done by bouncing the car and rolling the car back and forward (dampers set at full soft, if adjustable). This is difficult on a ramp stand, but even a few inches back and forth a few times should help. Not settling it means your actual setting will not be what you expect.

Marking the OE adjuster before you move it works sort of, but you need to be careful to always approach the mark from the same direction of adjustment (e.g. in the direction of increasing toe in) because there is play in the eccentric. The unknown is was your current alignment done that way? If not, your adjustment will be out by that much. You can have a close look before loosening off the adjuster to see which side of the eccentric is in contact with the subframe and then make sure you turn it in the direction to achieve this same contact, but check both sides, because they could be different.

The real problem with not getting the rear toe correct is not that the steering wheel won't be centered, but that the thrust axis will be offset. This will cause the car to become unsettled under power.

I realize that you will probably be considering your string alignment to be temporary, so only need to get close, but these are a few of the issues you will run into.

If you anticipate needing just a front alignment soon because you are doing something up front, ask your alignment shop now for a full alignment, but also ask if they will give you a discount on just the front in a few weeks when you change the front bits. They may be agreeable to this if you have developed a relationship with them, or they may have a reduced rate for front only.

[MightyMouseTech]

When setting the rear toe. The rear adjusters are extremely sensitive to small movements of the adjusters. Moving the adjuster only 1mm in either direction can move the toe from full spec in to out. Even tightening the adjuster can move the toe from perfect to completely out of spec, often requiring several attempts to tighten, even when holding the torx head on the back side of the adjuster.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

When setting the rear toe. The rear adjusters are extremely sensitive to small movements of the adjusters. Moving the adjuster only 1mm in either direction can move the toe from full spec in to out. Even tightening the adjuster can move the toe from perfect to completely out of spec, often requiring several attempts to tighten, even when holding the torx head on the back side of the adjuster.

Having battled with this a couple of times now, I made myself a fixture to hold the adjusting bolt from turning while torquing the nut. The aluminum fixture bolts to the subframe. The jack is there just to prevent the chassis from moving vertically in reaction to the torque wrench. The turnbuckle needs to get loaded clockwise so that the bolt has no play in the wrench. Coincidentally, the turnbuckle makes it really easy to make very small adjustments. This works pretty well, but as MightyMouseTech points out, the slightest movement in the bolt while tightening will change the alignment. The variety of holes in the fixture are to provide some options depending on where the adjusting bolt ends up. To use this on the LH side, the front of the muffler needs to be dropped down. It works on both the camber and toe adjusters.

[Pig Farmer]

I agree with everything Fe1rx and MMT mention above. Toe adjustments are very sensitive and the eccentric washer design makes setting proper toe even more difficult. Even after marking the washer and returning it to what I thought was the pre-install position, the driver side wheel was toed out, hence the need for a temporary sting alignment. I found it much easier to fine tune with the adjustable toe links. So here's a question for the experts... Since there's more than enough adjustment on the Manzo toe arms, where would you set the eccentric washer to avoid possible movement during spirited driving? Full toe-in, full toe-out, or somewhere in the middle? I'm thinking full toe-in.

[houtan]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Shocks/springs are stock.

Just have M3; front arms, rear upper arms, RSFB, then Dinan front camber plates.

I see. What toe and camber specs are you trying to get in the rear? Just curious because my alignment shop was able to get me within factory spec ( my camber is at-1.8 and toe is at .15 degrees). The only difference between my setup and yours is I have swift springs.

[ShocknAwe]

Interesting, I can't get less than -2, -2.2ish without excessive toe. I absolutely destroyed a set of tires trying to run less at more toe. Grip was nice though. Might have to get a set of those arms.