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      07-21-2018, 04:50 PM   #67
Soterios
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There's not one credible study that says that. As of 2017, your "grid" remains >30% coal fueled and >30% natural gas fueled. More importantly, secondary power in the US is almost entirely fossil fuel so the marginal cost of added EVs to the grid are almost pure GHG generating.

The whole idea that EVs are environmentally friendly is a hoax stirred in a nice big jug of kool-aid. Make no mistake, ICE engines are not environmentally friendly either, but the investment in EVs is not the cure ... not even close.

We're in desperate need of a proper, peer reviewed, academic study on the environmental costs of EV versus ICE. From lithium mining to battery disposal to the environmental impact of charging loads. There are none and it's shocking to see governments buy into this without any idea whether they are making things better or worse.
I'm not near my PC to pull this up, but you can pretty easily do the math on greenhouse gas emission. The fact that a coal fire plant and a car both burn fossil fuels does not make them equal. Power plants are considerably more efficient than a car in terms of emissions per power output. Somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2 for coal/gasoline for CO2 emissions.

In terms of lithium mining and recycling, this is something else that, as you said, needs a bit more study. That said, I really doubt that material collection and recycling comes close to what our coal plants are expelling. They're also something we're improving upon. So as I said before, they're getting 'greener' while the ICE isn't (significantly)

Investment greener energy and electric vehicles is absolutely a value added enterprise.

When I get back to work on Monday, I'll try to pull up some good studies to post. For the record. I'm an electrical engineer in the power industry. I work with generation and distribution. This is a constant discussion in my industry.
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      07-21-2018, 04:52 PM   #68
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No one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt. A Bolt is an overpriced Fit EV, a Model 3 is at least kind of appealing to people cross shopping the Germans.
I don't believe you can make such a definitive statement like "no one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt." You can see this comparison contained in YouTube videos alone.
Oh, if we're just counting on YouTube, then yes. And we should also probably throw in Airstream trailers and maybe a nice skid steer.
Huh?
YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
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      07-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
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No one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt. A Bolt is an overpriced Fit EV, a Model 3 is at least kind of appealing to people cross shopping the Germans.
I don't believe you can make such a definitive statement like "no one is comparing a Model 3 to a Bolt." You can see this comparison contained in YouTube videos alone.
Oh, if we're just counting on YouTube, then yes. And we should also probably throw in Airstream trailers and maybe a nice skid steer.
Huh?
YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
You're missing my point. That is, the number of people cross shipping the Model 3 and Bolt is something greater than the zero you seem to believe.
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      07-21-2018, 08:51 PM   #70
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You're missing my point. That is, the number of people cross shipping the Model 3 and Bolt is something greater than the zero you seem to believe.
I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
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      07-22-2018, 05:46 AM   #71
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Quote:
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YouTube is full of inane content. Someone connecting the dots there isn't quite the same thing as a consumer cross shopping an econobox, fwd micro SUV with a near-lux four door sedan. Just because they're both electric shouldn't open the door to whackadoodle comparisons.

No one gets any attention on here if they compare a Toyota CHR to a 330i, simply because they both have similar ranges and this is a similarly obtuse comparison. Just pull up a picture of both of you don't follow.
LOL. There are hundreds of business articles on the topic of will the Bolt affect sales of the Model 3 and vice versa. It was a huge debate on the internet, on this forum, and in business/financial magazines for a good 12 month period.

In the end both vehicles are selling well.
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      07-22-2018, 05:47 AM   #72
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I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
Which proves....?
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      07-22-2018, 12:46 PM   #73
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I know 6 people amongst my closest friends and colleagues who either have or will soon have a Model 3, 4 of which are car enthusiasts. I don't think any of them would know or care about what a "Chevy Bolt" is. Even I would have to Google it to recall what it looks like.
Which proves....?
...his definition of a car enthusiast is different than mine. That's about it.
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      07-22-2018, 12:53 PM   #74
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I was really impressed with the Model 3 having driven it a few times. It is not comparable to an M3. It is a semi-sporty sedan with a futuristic minimalist interior, if thats your thing (I liked the interior a lot). I won't buy a Model 3 for multiple reasons: 1) Emerging tech always gets hit hard with problems and depreciation. 2) Too expensive as it is priced in the 50k range. 3) Still not sold on the limitations of an electric vehicle and the driving range compromises that come with it.
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      07-22-2018, 05:08 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
I'm not near my PC to pull this up, but you can pretty easily do the math on greenhouse gas emission. The fact that a coal fire plant and a car both burn fossil fuels does not make them equal. Power plants are considerably more efficient than a car in terms of emissions per power output. Somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2 for coal/gasoline for CO2 emissions.

In terms of lithium mining and recycling, this is something else that, as you said, needs a bit more study. That said, I really doubt that material collection and recycling comes close to what our coal plants are expelling. They're also something we're improving upon. So as I said before, they're getting 'greener' while the ICE isn't (significantly)

Investment greener energy and electric vehicles is absolutely a value added enterprise.

When I get back to work on Monday, I'll try to pull up some good studies to post. For the record. I'm an electrical engineer in the power industry. I work with generation and distribution. This is a constant discussion in my industry.
My point is broader ... in that we really don't know the stem to stern environmental impacts of EVs vs. ICE. When I consider environmental impacts, I am not just considering GHGs, but the vast habitat and other environmental damage caused by constructing hydro-electric dams, harvesting oil from tar sands, fracking, off-shore drilling, mountaintop removal mining, etc.

Intuitively, EVs caused significant environmental damage; irrespective of whether they are marginally or even measurably better from a GHG perspective. I would much rather see investment in technologies that hold the potential to significantly alter the equation (eg. thermocatalytic decomposition and/or wind/solar electrolysis for manufacturing hydrogen as a fuel source) than the current rush to treat EVs as a panacea for all our environmental ills. It has not been studied enough and both industry and government are behaving irresponsibly).
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      07-22-2018, 08:39 PM   #76
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Quote:
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My point is broader ... in that we really don't know the stem to stern environmental impacts of EVs vs. ICE. When I consider environmental impacts, I am not just considering GHGs, but the vast habitat and other environmental damage caused by constructing hydro-electric dams, harvesting oil from tar sands, fracking, off-shore drilling, mountaintop removal mining, etc.

Intuitively, EVs caused significant environmental damage; irrespective of whether they are marginally or even measurably better from a GHG perspective. I would much rather see investment in technologies that hold the potential to significantly alter the equation (eg. thermocatalytic decomposition and/or wind/solar electrolysis for manufacturing hydrogen as a fuel source) than the current rush to treat EVs as a panacea for all our environmental ills. It has not been studied enough and both industry and government are behaving irresponsibly).
Well, if it eases your mind at all, the power industry is focused almost solely on wind and solar power here in America. So those other environmental worries are tiny tiny slices of the pie. You might read about those for consideration, but no one is mobilizing.

EV's don't have anything to do with the means of power production anyways. If we have a massive shift to EV tomorrow, we're just going to burn more coal, as that's where most of our power comes from. It's not like they're going to go out and damn up a bunch of rivers. The industry is slowly shifting the grid to solar and wind currently.
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      07-22-2018, 08:40 PM   #77
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Itís really ugly.
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      07-22-2018, 08:54 PM   #78
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You also can't lease them right now.
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TRAITOR.
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      07-23-2018, 07:27 AM   #79
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Just as much appeal as a Bolt does for a person with a young family looking for a CUV who are prepared to make the switch to electric.
I've test driven a Bolt and came away impressed with the vehicle for what it is. If I were in the market for a small FWD hatchback, would I pay $40k for this particular vehicle with no better performance than any other small FWD hatchback I could obtain for less money? Not necessarily. But it is definitely a quality product. As the cost of EVs comes down closer to ICE vehicles, products like the Bolt are going to become compelling for those looking for basic affordable transportation.
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      07-23-2018, 07:41 AM   #80
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So, whatīs the real price for this car? 40k? 70 k?

But in € or in USD?

Thank you
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      07-23-2018, 08:07 AM   #81
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Horrid quality, half baked looks, cost cuts galore. Objectively, it's a good 7/10ths car, but for $80k fully loaded I expected a lot better than an iPad strapped to a dash.

The lack of physical controls, and the cheap looking (read: plain) interior are especially appaling. How can this car cost this much and look so bad?
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      07-23-2018, 08:14 AM   #82
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So, whatīs the real price for this car? 40k? 70 k?

But in Ä or in USD?

Thank you
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      07-23-2018, 12:12 PM   #83
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Horrid quality, half baked looks, cost cuts galore. Objectively, it's a good 7/10ths car, but for $80k fully loaded I expected a lot better than an iPad strapped to a dash.

The lack of physical controls, and the cheap looking (read: plain) interior are especially appaling. How can this car cost this much and look so bad?
The lack of knobs and clean design really bugs some people.
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      07-23-2018, 01:00 PM   #84
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...his definition of a car enthusiast is different than mine. That's about it.
LOL.
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      07-24-2018, 12:35 AM   #85
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The lack of knobs and clean design really bugs some people.
Itís not clean - itís cheap. I hate to agree with someone who spoke about Audi - but they did it right.
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      07-24-2018, 09:29 AM   #86
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Itís not clean - itís cheap. I hate to agree with someone who spoke about Audi - but they did it right.
I'd describe it as utilitarian. I've seen the interior in person and cheap doesn't come to mind for me, it's just a very different take on what a car should be.
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      07-24-2018, 09:31 AM   #87
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Just had a good look at a silver Model 3 on my way in today. I'm sorry, but the front end is just fugly, no other way to put it... FUGLY.

And the flame surfacing (thanks Mr. Bangle) is just not well executed either.

If it was my dog I'd shave its butt and teach it to drive backwards...
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      07-24-2018, 09:45 AM   #88
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I'd describe it as utilitarian. I've seen the interior in person and cheap doesn't come to mind for me, it's just a very different take on what a car should be.
If any other car maker did it, we would be screaming how cheap it looked.



Utilitarian.



Looks cheap and incomplete.
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