Why does 330 feel less powerful at lower revs?

GTS_330 · 05-04-2005, 02:55 AM

So I test drove the 330i today. Guess what? I tried both with and without the DSC..... i didn't feel the difference. although, the new 330i power is very very smooth.... the speedometer climb like crazy but it just didn't feel that fast...and i did the feel the low end lag like mentioned above....it felt like a low-torque car in a way... i think the 30hp gain from the E46 contribute to this lag in the lower end.

voltron1011 · 05-04-2005, 06:28 AM

I think you guys are comparing your broken-in motors from E46s to a new motor in the E90. Most cars don't come out of their shell till at least 15,000 miles.

morrisond · 05-04-2005, 07:44 AM

Could it be the computer retarding the timing on a cold engine to prevent damage? This sounds like a likely cause. Most test drives are so short the engine may not get up to actual operating temp.

YYdoodle · 05-04-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morrisond

Could it be the computer retarding the timing on a cold engine to prevent damage? This sounds like a likely cause. Most test drives are so short the engine may not get up to actual operating temp.

Now there's a new theory. Anyone else think this is the likely cause?

MarkA · 05-04-2005, 07:50 AM

I did notice that they don't have engine temp gauges on the main cluster. (well they do.. but it's via the computer display..)

CaptJack · 05-04-2005, 08:11 AM

Yeah, the hesitation is REAL, definately not imagined. It was there throughout the autocross events using two different cars. It was there ONLY when the revs were down and I put my foot to the floor. The reason I mentioned the DSC as a possible culprit is that it kicks in immediately if it thinks you're going to break the wheels loose. It litereally cuts off the gas momentarily. If that's the case, and I hope it is, it should be a simple software update.

CaptJack · 05-04-2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

I did notice that they don't have engine temp gauges on the main cluster. (well they do.. but it's via the computer display..)

Word from BMW is that you don't need to worry about warming the engine up on this car. From what I read there are a couple German police forces that run BMWs and wanted to go from "cold & off" to "on & in pursuit" instantly. It sounds too good to be true but I guess we'll find out when we finally get our hands on the owners manual.

MarkA · 05-04-2005, 12:35 PM

Hmm.. I know BMW engines are a black art (i.e. Mystical and Powerful) and I know Oil technology has moved forward (long life oil etc) BUT friction being what it is, and the different temp ranges a modern car works at... I can't see us having to give up worrying about warming the car up before us getting our game face on any time soon.

Perhaps as you say there is a performance limiter until it's all cooked through. (Didn't the M5 have a series of lights on the rev counter (variable red-line) showing it warming though?)

slashmatt · 05-04-2005, 12:55 PM

Well, I don't care if your motor is made of Kryptonite. It is just stupid to push it until it has warmed up. I never push my car (NSX) until the engine has reached normal operating temperature. In fact, the ECU cuts off the revs above 7k on the NSX until the temperature has reached the proper level. This doesn't take long, just a few minutes the first time the car is run after several hours of sitting still. You'll find a similar system on the M3 with it's tach lights showing you what the current state of "warming up" is. I wouldn't be suprised at all if the 330i had a similar system, but not a similar set of warnings. The 330i was designed to be more "plug and play". That doesn't mean that the laws of physics don't apply.

slashmatt · 05-04-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptJack

Word from BMW is that you don't need to worry about warming the engine up on this car. From what I read there are a couple German police forces that run BMWs and wanted to go from "cold & off" to "on & in pursuit" instantly. It sounds too good to be true but I guess we'll find out when we finally get our hands on the owners manual.

Therefore, BMW probably includes ECU control during warm up to allow you to push the engine as hard as it can go without causing damage upon startup.

GTS_330 · 05-04-2005, 09:53 PM

I don't think it was the cold temperature of the engine that cause the lag..... the car i drove was just back from another test drive. it was already warmed up.... breaking-in period make more sense to me.

Maybe BMW design their car to perform less aggressive for the first 5,000 so it's impossible to mess up the engine during the breaking-in period.... just MAYBE!!!! hahaha

morrisond · 05-05-2005, 10:03 AM

It is possible that they use less agressive timing for break in. Although not a direct comparable, on high performance 2 stroke snowmobile engines(almost 200hp/liter) manufacturers will have a break in timing curve that has less advance so the engine isn't harmed. As 4 stroke car engines go higher and higher in output per liter you'll probably see more of this.

vivid · 05-05-2005, 11:00 AM

I drove a 330i 6mt and I did not feel any lag; as soon as I let the clutch go the car went. But I never let the revs get to what I call low, I kept the car at around 3500-4000 revs shifting around 5500 and I felt power that was not far off my E36 M3... I did not feel any lag maybe an increasing amount of power as the revs got higher but not enough to say that at 3500-4000 it was weak... I can imagine a lag with an automatic, it shifts slowly and is always in that damn overdrive gear (unless using steptronic taking away some of the mindless cpu)

I really enjoyed my test drive. You guys getting a 330 or 325 congrats its a great fun car and can’t wait for my M3

EDIT: I should add that I have not drive an E46 very much so can really compare the E90 to it, which I guess this thread was doing... my bad

garymazeffa · 05-05-2005, 12:10 PM

Same experience, albeit more pronounced in the manual. The dealership pointed to the gearing. I think it is both the gearing and software. What burns me up a bit is that BMW's have a history of year one launch problems. Just be careful before you take delivery that your car does not have the same problem.

northcountry · 05-05-2005, 12:35 PM

the torque curve shows you should have good, consistent torque from 2750 rpm on up. if you're feeling a lot more acceleration at 5000, either something is wrong with that car or the screaming sound coming from under the hood adds a few foot pounds more. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84700

garymazeffa · 05-06-2005, 04:20 PM

I know drove the 325i, same hesitation as the 330.

mike20022 · 05-06-2005, 04:55 PM

I test drove the 330i Manual and noticed the exact same thing. I was hoping it was something to protect the engine during the break in period. I hope that some one can confirm what this is, or why this is happening before I place my order. This does have me concerned a bit about the E90. I personally did not like the hesitation that it had at all.

ziv · 05-06-2005, 05:09 PM

Guys, one of the readers on the board mentioned the DBW (Drive By wire) as a possible culprit, and I would tend to agree with that argument the most. I had a 330Ci for 5 years. It was an amazing car, AFTER I chipped it with the Dinan chip. Without the Dinan chip, it felt sluggish and heavier. The Dinan chip didn't add any HP or torque. All it did were 3 things:

* Raise the rev limiter
* Raise the top speed
* Modify the DBW feel.

It felt like the car lost a lot of weight :-) Again, it didn't add any HP or torque, but rather just changed the sw (actually firmware) that links between the electronic throttle and the engine. It made a huge difference. If you guys want to compare easily, go and drive a Z4 w/ and w/o the Sport button engaged. It's the same thing (other more recent models might have it too, I'm not sure, but I know the Z4 has it for sure). With the Sports button engaged, the DBW behavior is a lot snappier. With the Sports button disengaged, the car feels more sluggish with more hesitation in first gear (oh ya, I had a stick).

So, if you combine this "opinion" with the knowledge that the engine is not broken in, and BMW CAN program the car to hesitate for the first 1200 miles, I would not worry about it too much. I drove the car for about 350 miles on Monday, and although I didn't push it hard, and certainly not past 3.5K, I didn't feel any weirdness.

I anticipate that Dinan will have a chip out in a few months. If people like it, like they did for the 330Ci, I'll go for it. It was well spent $300, and can be totally reversible if you don't like the effects.

Just my $0.02

Forgot to mention something -- Dinan is a BMW Certified vendor, so by chipping your car, you are not voiding any warrantees :rocks: It is considered a factory BMW addition.

RichReg · 05-06-2005, 07:57 PM

No offense ziv, but I don't think we should have to fulfill BMW's Aftermarket marketing dreams if we are shelling out the extra $4 or $5K for a 330i as opposed to a 325. Or even if we are buying a 325 for that matter.

If its just something weird about the way the car feels and doesn't affect performance, then fine. But if this "hesitation factor" is indeed impeding the car's performance, then it should be corrected.

ziv · 05-06-2005, 08:05 PM

I completely agree with you. I don't want to spend one cent over what I already paid for the car :-) We're actually in sync. I was disappointed when I bought the 330Ci with the perf., I surfed the boards, did research, and the enthusiasts were saying that this chip will do the trick. It did. I loved the car with it. I REALLY wish I didn't have to spend the extra money. Also, I don't even know if Dinan will have a chip for the E90. I'm speculating, since they always had, and they're purely a BMW shop...

That said, MAYBE BMW has learned that the US market doesn't want a sluggish feeling car, and they'll program the ECU with a fun program. I had a good time while driving in Europe, and I can't wait to actually start pushing the car. But truth be told -- with the reprogrammed ECU in my 330Ci, my car was very very responsive to gas input. Some people might not like it. I loved it. But that's probably the reason that BMW chose to, by default, add a delay, so that for most consumers, it would appear as a luxury car, and not as a sports car...

There are arguments for it from either side.

vivid · 05-06-2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichReg

No offense ziv, but I don't think we should have to fulfill BMW's Aftermarket marketing dreams if we are shelling out the extra $4 or $5K for a 330i as opposed to a 325. Or even if we are buying a 325 for that matter.

If its just something weird about the way the car feels and doesn't affect performance, then fine. But if this "hesitation factor" is indeed impeding the car's performance, then it should be corrected.

good point, you should upgrade becuase you want to, not need to becuase of a flaw.

sawcat · 05-06-2005, 08:06 PM

It may be too early for anyone to confirm this, but other the than the undesirable hesitation “feel” has there been a documented reduction in performance? I thought I read that Car and Driver was finding 0 to 60 times in the mid to high 5s. Has anyone been able to time the 330i (manual) yet to quantity a deficiency from BMW’s published time of 6.1 seconds? I guess I am just confused whether this is a performance or “feel” issue.

05-04-2005, 02:55 AM	#23
GTS_330 Private 0 Rep 68 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 330 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA iTrader: (0)	So I test drove the 330i today. Guess what? I tried both with and without the DSC..... i didn't feel the difference. although, the new 330i power is very very smooth.... the speedometer climb like crazy but it just didn't feel that fast...and i did the feel the low end lag like mentioned above....it felt like a low-torque car in a way... i think the 30hp gain from the E46 contribute to this lag in the lower end.
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05-04-2005, 06:28 AM	#24
voltron1011 Colonel 119 Rep 2,909 Posts Drives: 2011 135i, FJR-1300 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wiesbaden iTrader: (2)	I think you guys are comparing your broken-in motors from E46s to a new motor in the E90. Most cars don't come out of their shell till at least 15,000 miles.
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05-04-2005, 07:44 AM	#25
morrisond New Member 10 Rep 26 Posts Drives: 06 330i SP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	Could it be the computer retarding the timing on a cold engine to prevent damage? This sounds like a likely cause. Most test drives are so short the engine may not get up to actual operating temp.
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05-04-2005, 07:50 AM	#27
MarkA Resident Nürburgring Junkie 17 Rep 195 Posts Drives: 320Si Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Netherlands iTrader: (0)	I did notice that they don't have engine temp gauges on the main cluster. (well they do.. but it's via the computer display..)
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05-04-2005, 08:11 AM	#28
CaptJack Mach 1 in a BMW 9 Rep 94 Posts Drives: 2019 BMW X3 M40i Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0) Garage List 2019 BMW X3 M40i [0.00]	Hesitation Yeah, the hesitation is REAL, definately not imagined. It was there throughout the autocross events using two different cars. It was there ONLY when the revs were down and I put my foot to the floor. The reason I mentioned the DSC as a possible culprit is that it kicks in immediately if it thinks you're going to break the wheels loose. It litereally cuts off the gas momentarily. If that's the case, and I hope it is, it should be a simple software update.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

05-04-2005, 12:35 PM	#30
MarkA Resident Nürburgring Junkie 17 Rep 195 Posts Drives: 320Si Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Netherlands iTrader: (0)	Hmm.. I know BMW engines are a black art (i.e. Mystical and Powerful) and I know Oil technology has moved forward (long life oil etc) BUT friction being what it is, and the different temp ranges a modern car works at... I can't see us having to give up worrying about warming the car up before us getting our game face on any time soon. Perhaps as you say there is a performance limiter until it's all cooked through. (Didn't the M5 have a series of lights on the rev counter (variable red-line) showing it warming though?)
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05-04-2005, 12:55 PM	#31
slashmatt Enlisted Member 5 Rep 38 Posts Drives: NSX (330 soon) Join Date: May 2005 Location: Houston, TX iTrader: (0)	Well, I don't care if your motor is made of Kryptonite. It is just stupid to push it until it has warmed up. I never push my car (NSX) until the engine has reached normal operating temperature. In fact, the ECU cuts off the revs above 7k on the NSX until the temperature has reached the proper level. This doesn't take long, just a few minutes the first time the car is run after several hours of sitting still. You'll find a similar system on the M3 with it's tach lights showing you what the current state of "warming up" is. I wouldn't be suprised at all if the 330i had a similar system, but not a similar set of warnings. The 330i was designed to be more "plug and play". That doesn't mean that the laws of physics don't apply.
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05-04-2005, 09:53 PM	#33
GTS_330 Private 0 Rep 68 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 330 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA iTrader: (0)	I don't think it was the cold temperature of the engine that cause the lag..... the car i drove was just back from another test drive. it was already warmed up.... breaking-in period make more sense to me. Maybe BMW design their car to perform less aggressive for the first 5,000 so it's impossible to mess up the engine during the breaking-in period.... just MAYBE!!!! hahaha
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05-05-2005, 10:03 AM	#34
morrisond New Member 10 Rep 26 Posts Drives: 06 330i SP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	It is possible that they use less agressive timing for break in. Although not a direct comparable, on high performance 2 stroke snowmobile engines(almost 200hp/liter) manufacturers will have a break in timing curve that has less advance so the engine isn't harmed. As 4 stroke car engines go higher and higher in output per liter you'll probably see more of this.
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05-05-2005, 11:00 AM	#35
vivid Captain 40 Rep 822 Posts Drives: 135i, 323i Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA. iTrader: (0)	I drove a 330i 6mt and I did not feel any lag; as soon as I let the clutch go the car went. But I never let the revs get to what I call low, I kept the car at around 3500-4000 revs shifting around 5500 and I felt power that was not far off my E36 M3... I did not feel any lag maybe an increasing amount of power as the revs got higher but not enough to say that at 3500-4000 it was weak... I can imagine a lag with an automatic, it shifts slowly and is always in that damn overdrive gear (unless using steptronic taking away some of the mindless cpu) I really enjoyed my test drive. You guys getting a 330 or 325 congrats its a great fun car and can’t wait for my M3 EDIT: I should add that I have not drive an E46 very much so can really compare the E90 to it, which I guess this thread was doing... my bad __________________ Current: 135i, 323i wagon. Sold:GTI Sold: FX45 Sold: E36 M3 Last edited by vivid; 05-05-2005 at 11:07 AM..
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05-05-2005, 12:10 PM	#36
garymazeffa New Member 7 Rep 19 Posts Drives: 1997 BMW 540i Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Columbus, Ohio iTrader: (0)	Same experience, albeit more pronounced in the manual. The dealership pointed to the gearing. I think it is both the gearing and software. What burns me up a bit is that BMW's have a history of year one launch problems. Just be careful before you take delivery that your car does not have the same problem.
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05-05-2005, 12:35 PM	#37
northcountry Enlisted Member 6 Rep 42 Posts Drives: 06 330i Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: minnesota iTrader: (0)	the torque curve shows you should have good, consistent torque from 2750 rpm on up. if you're feeling a lot more acceleration at 5000, either something is wrong with that car or the screaming sound coming from under the hood adds a few foot pounds more. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84700
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05-06-2005, 04:20 PM	#38
garymazeffa New Member 7 Rep 19 Posts Drives: 1997 BMW 540i Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Columbus, Ohio iTrader: (0)	I know drove the 325i, same hesitation as the 330.
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05-06-2005, 04:55 PM	#39
mike20022 Private 17 Rep 86 Posts Drives: Honda Accord Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: MD iTrader: (0)	Same here... I test drove the 330i Manual and noticed the exact same thing. I was hoping it was something to protect the engine during the break in period. I hope that some one can confirm what this is, or why this is happening before I place my order. This does have me concerned a bit about the E90. I personally did not like the hesitation that it had at all.
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05-06-2005, 05:09 PM	#40
ziv Private 5 Rep 84 Posts Drives: 330i, SG, Sport Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	Guys, one of the readers on the board mentioned the DBW (Drive By wire) as a possible culprit, and I would tend to agree with that argument the most. I had a 330Ci for 5 years. It was an amazing car, AFTER I chipped it with the Dinan chip. Without the Dinan chip, it felt sluggish and heavier. The Dinan chip didn't add any HP or torque. All it did were 3 things: * Raise the rev limiter * Raise the top speed * Modify the DBW feel. It felt like the car lost a lot of weight :-) Again, it didn't add any HP or torque, but rather just changed the sw (actually firmware) that links between the electronic throttle and the engine. It made a huge difference. If you guys want to compare easily, go and drive a Z4 w/ and w/o the Sport button engaged. It's the same thing (other more recent models might have it too, I'm not sure, but I know the Z4 has it for sure). With the Sports button engaged, the DBW behavior is a lot snappier. With the Sports button disengaged, the car feels more sluggish with more hesitation in first gear (oh ya, I had a stick). So, if you combine this "opinion" with the knowledge that the engine is not broken in, and BMW CAN program the car to hesitate for the first 1200 miles, I would not worry about it too much. I drove the car for about 350 miles on Monday, and although I didn't push it hard, and certainly not past 3.5K, I didn't feel any weirdness. I anticipate that Dinan will have a chip out in a few months. If people like it, like they did for the 330Ci, I'll go for it. It was well spent $300, and can be totally reversible if you don't like the effects. Just my $0.02 Forgot to mention something -- Dinan is a BMW Certified vendor, so by chipping your car, you are not voiding any warrantees :rocks: It is considered a factory BMW addition.
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05-06-2005, 07:57 PM	#41
RichReg Colonel 121 Rep 2,099 Posts Drives: 2015 435Xi GC & 2000 323Ci. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Jersey iTrader: (0)	No offense ziv, but I don't think we should have to fulfill BMW's Aftermarket marketing dreams if we are shelling out the extra $4 or $5K for a 330i as opposed to a 325. Or even if we are buying a 325 for that matter. If its just something weird about the way the car feels and doesn't affect performance, then fine. But if this "hesitation factor" is indeed impeding the car's performance, then it should be corrected.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

05-06-2005, 08:05 PM	#42
ziv Private 5 Rep 84 Posts Drives: 330i, SG, Sport Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	I completely agree with you. I don't want to spend one cent over what I already paid for the car :-) We're actually in sync. I was disappointed when I bought the 330Ci with the perf., I surfed the boards, did research, and the enthusiasts were saying that this chip will do the trick. It did. I loved the car with it. I REALLY wish I didn't have to spend the extra money. Also, I don't even know if Dinan will have a chip for the E90. I'm speculating, since they always had, and they're purely a BMW shop... That said, MAYBE BMW has learned that the US market doesn't want a sluggish feeling car, and they'll program the ECU with a fun program. I had a good time while driving in Europe, and I can't wait to actually start pushing the car. But truth be told -- with the reprogrammed ECU in my 330Ci, my car was very very responsive to gas input. Some people might not like it. I loved it. But that's probably the reason that BMW chose to, by default, add a delay, so that for most consumers, it would appear as a luxury car, and not as a sports car... There are arguments for it from either side.
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05-06-2005, 08:06 PM	#44
sawcat Enlisted Member 4 Rep 36 Posts Drives: e90 - 330i Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vienna, VA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330i [0.00]	It may be too early for anyone to confirm this, but other the than the undesirable hesitation “feel” has there been a documented reduction in performance? I thought I read that Car and Driver was finding 0 to 60 times in the mid to high 5s. Has anyone been able to time the 330i (manual) yet to quantity a deficiency from BMW’s published time of 6.1 seconds? I guess I am just confused whether this is a performance or “feel” issue.
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