Is the motor identical to the 35is motor?

[MDORPHN]

FWIW (which may be little), I imagine that the motor is identical to the Z4 35is with the single exception of software changes for the M drive button.

And that's fine with me!

Neil

[HondaGoneRogue]

You can expect as much change in the motor as the dashboard. Our saving grace (again, im perfectly fine with our motor as is) was the bmw power package. Which I bet was founded upon seeing what Terry Burger and Steve Vishnu were doin first.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Robert

From some of us it seems like you been drinking too much BMW koolaid. And Dr Kay is a marketing guy, I naturally take what he says and discount by 60%.

The majority of my comments are NOT based on Dr. Kay. so you can talk about his marketing prowess all you want, but when an M *engineer* tells you that they have spent a significant amount of time tuning the motor, that's an entirely different situation. As far as the differences between the actual hard parts of the motor, no.. I don't think there are any differences other than they changed the piston rings and blueprinting (selecting and matching components).

Oh.... and Let's be clear, I didn't drink the Koolaid... i drove it.

[swamp2]

Been away from this thread for too long...

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

It sounds like the motor has been "blueprinted" from the factory. It's common for most components to come from the factory in a range of tolerance "bins"- pistons might come in 4 bore sizes and different weights, etc. By putting the best parts together (choosing the largest piston diameters, lightest weight rods, etc) you can build "stronger" motors from the factory. Porsche used to do this sometimes for "special wishes" cars, where a good customer or Porsche exec would get a factory special that would dyno 10-20 hp stronger than an average car without any on-paper changes.

It makes some sense that they would upgrade the critical components such as rings and choose the best parts for the M cars; it's virtually free as they have the whole range of parts to choose from. It might buy you a little power and it probably gets you more reliability, but nothing dramatic. Not exactly make or break either way- as long as the price is right I'm fine with this motor being "the same". This car is about the package, not the motor...

Come on, you don't seriously believe that they can or would do this for the 1M do you? Talk about adding inordinate costs...

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

There are a few more functional differences I'd note that become apparent when you're driving on the limit. The following list is true of all current DCTs, though the amounts vary:

1. Inconsistency. The delay from the time the paddle is pressed until the box shifts varies. This is because the DCT is only able to pre-select one gear. If you're in 4th, the DCT guesses if you're shifting to 5th or 3rd. If it guesses right the shift is as fast as letting out the clutch, but if it guesses wrong it needs to change gears, taking a few hundred ms. So unlike a manual (or racing sequential, etc) you don't have total control over when a gear is selected- can be pretty bad is certain situations.
2. Fewer control options. A number of "tricks" available to the manual trans driver are not available with DCT. For example I'll often purposely not fully rev-match a downshift on a slow autocross hairpin in order to provoke the rear end to rotate- not possible with DCT. I'll also left foot brake to balance the car; many DCTs don't allow power and brakes at the same time. There are a few other examples- the clutch simply gives you another input that you don't have on a DCT.
3. Weight: 45 lbs for the BMW unit. Usually lost in the noise...

Now the DCT also has a number of positives, of course. As I said above it will generally post better numbers than a manual. The above list, obviously plus driver involvement which is the big one, is why I'd prefer a manual (I drive both a DCT and manual at the moment). I also realize many people probably wouldn't notice much of the above and prefer a DCT.

Pete are your experiences here from a DSG? I have very limited time with VAG DSGs but the unit in the GTI is considerably different than the M-DCT. Item 1 is a complete non issue with M-DCT. There are also ways to trick/work with/enhance a DCT beyond just pulling the paddle. It is just that the tricks are a bit different.

Originally Posted by 1M Fan

One of my favorites.

Also, Don't for get skip shifting, both up and down.

You can get the M-DCT to skip shift but only 2 or so gears and only downshifting not upshifting. When very rapid paddle down shift operations are detected you get a skipped downshift.

Originally Posted by Redadair

Higher RPM's doesn't let you stay in a gear longer. That is determined by gear ratios

It's both really. If you can boost your redline you will stay in a gear longer and maintain the higher acceleration from the lower gear longer. However, if you tweak your FD ratio (or other gear ratios) that too affects how long (to what peak speed) you will stay in each gear.

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Throughout this entire thread, many have presumed that BMW just dropped the same motor into the 1M and slapped an M badge on the rear.

Hmmm, it seems abundantly clear to me that with regards to the engine alone (we all know what the car has for wheels, brakes, suspension, diff, etc.) that this is absolutely an identical engine from other cars with some software modifications.

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

Things I would like to know:

1. What exactly does the M button do? Is it a whole new ECU map with more area under the curve (i.e. more power), or is it just a revised throttle response to give the feeling of quicker response (like the e46 M3)?

2. What does the "Sport Plus" button do in the Z4is? Again, is it a completely different ECU map or just a nonlinear throttle response?

I expect most of this is similar to the M3 less any alternate maps. In the M3 the button is simply a macro that provides a way to adjust most of the adjustable features of the car with a single button press. Of course the 1M does not have EDC nor adjustable steering so the button obviosuly will be doing less. In the M5 though the power button can swap between 400 and 507 hp. In the M3 the Power button does nothing but alter the throttle opening vs. pedal depression curve. Of course WOT it WOT under any throttle curve so the non linear curves with higher low throttle sensitivity are just that - non linear. It would make sense in a FI car with a M button to alter maps however, the official press information does state that is only changes the "throttle response".

[Kurt_OH]

I expect that whatever "tuning" M-division did on the 1M motor, will be used to produce all the other iS motors also. In other words, there IS NO "M" motor for the 1M - it's a standard BMW motor from multiple non-M models, that was VERY lightly looked at by M-division.

There's really no other legit way to spin it; this M simply does NOT have an "M" motor. It has a stock BMW motor from their line of non-M cars.

[sho-one]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I expect that whatever "tuning" M-division did on the 1M motor, will be used to produce all the other iS motors also. In other words, there IS NO "M" motor for the 1M - it's a standard BMW motor from multiple non-M models, that was VERY lightly looked at by M-division.

There's really no other legit way to spin it; this M simply does NOT have an "M" motor. It has a stock BMW motor from their line of non-M cars.

agreed, Im almost sure its just a throttle adjustment button.

This car has the same engine as the z4335is and Im tired of all this blue printing/tolerances crap. It has the same engine and the engine is not specific to the 1 M. Unless proven otherwise, that facts presented are there. There would be no reason for them to hide the fact they did something physically to the engine, cause it would only help their sales pitch. But this talking around the subject seems to me that they programed the ECU in it diffrently and thats it. The old doc sounds like a car salesman...wait a minute..isn't he in marketing???

But I'm also okay with that, it is more than enough power for me. I'm sold on the looks, drivetrain, handling, and power. I'm just gonna accept it the way it is.

[heli_ben]

Originally Posted by sho-one

agreed, Im almost sure its just a throttle adjustment button.

This car has the same engine as the z4335is and Im tired of all this blue printing/tolerances crap. It has the same engine and the engine is not specific to the 1 M. Unless proven otherwise, that facts presented are there. There would be no reason for them to hide the fact they did something physically to the engine, cause it would only help their sales pitch. But this talking around the subject seems to me that they programed the ECU in it diffrently and thats it. The old doc sounds like a car salesman...wait a minute..isn't he in marketing???

But I'm also okay with that, it is more than enough power for me. I'm sold on the looks, drivetrain, handling, and power. I'm just gonna accept it the way it is.

Internally the 1M and Z4 35is engine are the same - FACT.

Externally the cooling is different - FACT.

The software is different - FACT.

[HERR FSTIR]

Originally Posted by heli_ben

The software is different - FACT.

While this seems likely, I am not sure this has been firmly established. Can you corroborate this statement?

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

While this seems likely, I am not sure this has been firmly established. Can you corroborate this statement?

It has to be different. They have been speaking of an MDM the entire time (and we know, that there is a button for it). That is an M-specific DSC mode that actually allows drifts. And in order for that to happen, the software has to be different. A Z4 does not offer that M specific DSC mode.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

It has to be different. They have been speaking of an MDM the entire time (and we know, that there is a button for it). That is an M-specific DSC mode that actually allows drifts. And in order for that to happen, the software has to be different. A Z4 does not offer that M specific DSC mode.

DSC isn't the ENGINE. Hell, they might also have faster or slower dimming internal lighting once the door closes, but that also has nothing to do with the engine.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

DSC isn't the ENGINE.

Ah ha. So the DSC doesn't cut the engine, when it is trying to prevent oversteer? And in order to allow oversteer, the interaction between DSC and engine will not have to be adapted? So if that is what they did (which is what they are saying), they are using a different software. If that's the type of change users would have liked to see... that's a different question.

[treehacker]

@Kurt,
EmmDrei is refering to "The software is different - FACT."
The engine might be the same... but the software must be different.

[EmmDrei]

Originally Posted by treehacker

@Kurt,
EmmDrei is refering to "The software is different - FACT."
The engine might be the same... but the software must be different.

Yup. Thanks for clarifying!

[HERR FSTIR]

I am not suggesting the software is bit for bit verbatim of what is present in the Z4is ECU. I don't doubt a few adjustments have been made to the software to allow more spirited driving (basically tweaking DSC to create the MDM mode).

The larger question, however, is whether the actual engine parameters have been substantially altered from the Z4is mapping (i.e. boost levels, timing, etc...). Both cars have a "sport" mode - "sport plus" in the Z4is and "M mode" in the 1MSC. I am simply curious whether the engine mapping is actually any different in the 1MSC.

My guess is they are the same. If there is a difference I suspect the M button in the 1MSC remaps the throttle response to create the impression of a more responsive motor (perhaps this is what the "sport plus" button does in the Z4is as well).

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

My guess is they are the same. .

Why? What do you have to go on to support your guess?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

I am not suggesting the software is bit for bit verbatim of what is present in the Z4is ECU. I don't doubt a few adjustments have been made to the software to allow more spirited driving (basically tweaking DSC to create the MDM mode).

The larger question, however, is whether the actual engine parameters have been substantially altered from the Z4is mapping (i.e. boost levels, timing, etc...). Both cars have a "sport" mode - "sport plus" in the Z4is and "M mode" in the 1MSC. I am simply curious whether the engine mapping is actually any different in the 1MSC.

My guess is they are the same. If there is a difference I suspect the M button in the 1MSC remaps the throttle response to create the impression of a more responsive motor (perhaps this is what the "sport plus" button does in the Z4is as well).

Since they cars have identical power and torque specs and the same overboost feature my guess is that the true engine control parts of the software are absolutely identical. From a development and manufacturing point of view anything else doesn't make much sense at all.

[crzy4135i]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Since they cars have identical power and torque specs and the same overboost feature my guess is that the true engine control parts of the software are absolutely identical. From a development and manufacturing point of view anything else doesn't make much sense at all.

True, and it might also be to avoid having to certify another setup with the epa.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

Ah ha. So the DSC doesn't cut the engine, when it is trying to prevent oversteer? And in order to allow oversteer, the interaction between DSC and engine will not have to be adapted? So if that is what they did (which is what they are saying), they are using a different software. If that's the type of change users would have liked to see... that's a different question.

Might be (likely is) true, but it's not on point. The discussion is about the actual output of the engine itself, and how, if at all, the maximum output at each RPM differs from an "iS" engine. At least, that's what I was discussing.

[HERR FSTIR]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Why? What do you have to go on to support your guess?

No insider info or anything. Just seems logical. The motor is stated to be the same as that available in the Z4is. The peak output is unchanged from the Z4is. And as Swamp indicates, it saves money to keep changes to a minimum.

Furthermore, if the engine software truly differed between the Z4is and 1MSC then why not tout this fact during the official debut in Detroit? I think they would readily divulge a totally revised engine mapping if it in fact exists.

[heli_ben]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

While this seems likely, I am not sure this has been firmly established. Can you corroborate this statement?

This is fact from inside BMW.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by crzy4135i

True, and it might also be to avoid having to certify another setup with the epa.

Indeed, along with dozens of other reasons, testing, QA, programming and development time and cost, etc., etc.

[jmunro]

We already know this is a FrankenBimmer. I thought everyone moved on from those discussions already?