For those doing mods: worried about voiding factory warranty?

[1swift1]

Here's the deal:
1. I want to keep this car forever, and it's my daily driver.
2. I'm in the US, so I've got a maintenance warranty good for 4 years, 50K miles. I'm actually part of Papathova's group buy for engine warranty for a 6yr/100k mile, just waiting for final pricing.
3. I want to perform safe (i.e. not going to stress the engine greatly) modifications: FMIC on order, perhaps AFE stage II intake, really like the sound of the Borla exhaust. Can't figure out if DPs, midpipe, or other exhaust mods are best for my goal exhaust note (more bass, not farty, not more burble/backfire, a bit louder/aggressive) or if they will generate that much more horsepower.
4. I'm going to do the Evolve tune mostly to prevent any mods from triggering check engine lights. It would be cool to get an extra 50 HP with the mods, though.
5. My plan was to use the flash based Evolve-R tune because I could switch back to stock tune without the dealership seeing that I messed with the ECU when I went in for warranty work or maintenance.

SO, my questions are these:
1. If the engine blows up (not because of something I did), but I have some or all of the modifications in place, will BMW honor the warranty?
2. If other things (drivetrain related) break on the car usually covered by the warranty, will BMW try to say I caused it with the mods?
3. Would BMW not want to do the maintenance work for the next 4yr/50K if I have mods?
4. Is my plan to flash back to stock tune not going to work if I use DPs (O2 sensors are altered)? Is this the only mod I can't do and still swap back to stock tune for maintenance work or warranty claims? Does anyone know what mods will or won't cause the CEL? Example, FMIC and intake are safe? Axle-back exhaust safe? Can someone make a list of mods that require a tune to prevent the CEL?

I know it sounds like I'm trying to achieve the best of both worlds (stock reliability and comfort that BMW will cover manufacturer's defects) and increased HP/TQ via mods. I just want to find a happy middle ground between the two. Thoughts?

[nachob]

Originally Posted by 1swift1

Here's the deal:
1. I want to keep this car forever, and it's my daily driver.
2. I'm in the US, so I've got a maintenance warranty good for 4 years, 50K miles. I'm actually part of Papathova's group buy for engine warranty for a 6yr/100k mile, just waiting for final pricing.
3. I want to perform safe (i.e. not going to stress the engine greatly) modifications: FMIC on order, perhaps AFE stage II intake, really like the sound of the Borla exhaust. Can't figure out if DPs, midpipe, or other exhaust mods are best for my goal exhaust note (more bass, not farty, not more burble/backfire, a bit louder/aggressive) or if they will generate that much more horsepower.
4. I'm going to do the Evolve tune mostly to prevent any mods from triggering check engine lights. It would be cool to get an extra 50 HP with the mods, though.
5. My plan was to use the flash based Evolve-R tune because I could switch back to stock tune without the dealership seeing that I messed with the ECU when I went in for warranty work or maintenance.

SO, my questions are these:
1. If the engine blows up (not because of something I did), but I have some or all of the modifications in place, will BMW honor the warranty?
2. If other things (drivetrain related) break on the car usually covered by the warranty, will BMW try to say I caused it with the mods?
3. Would BMW not want to do the maintenance work for the next 4yr/50K if I have mods?
4. Is my plan to flash back to stock tune not going to work if I use DPs (O2 sensors are altered)? Is this the only mod I can't do and still swap back to stock tune for maintenance work or warranty claims? Does anyone know what mods will or won't cause the CEL? Example, FMIC and intake are safe? Axle-back exhaust safe? Can someone make a list of mods that require a tune to prevent the CEL?

I know it sounds like I'm trying to achieve the best of both worlds (stock reliability and comfort that BMW will cover manufacturer's defects) and increased HP/TQ via mods. I just want to find a happy middle ground between the two. Thoughts?

Ok, a lot of opinions here so here is mine.

On Warranty, I have had the same concerns, including worried about autocrossing and what they would say on a warranty concern. My personal experience has been that dealers generally blame the owner first, tuners second and BMW last. Your warrantly concerns depend a lot on your dealer. If you blow it up, they will exhaust all options trying to find what "you did" before suspecting the car. By its nature you can't really say that you modded the engine/software and if the engine blows up, "it's not something I did." Have you noticed that BMW spends a lot of time on the programming and testing of their software. Dinan was one of the last tuners to come out with power upgrade. Coincidence? I'm sure many will just say the BMW ///M and Dinan are just slowpokes. I differ on that view.

Some dealers are more performance friendly, sponsor autocrosses, BMW CCA events and do a lot of BMW Performance and Dinan work. They tend to be more reasonable about it and can help you steer through the BMW bureaucracy. Again, a lot this also depends on you having a good relationship with their service department. If you are worried, I would feel them out first. Let's say they are Dinan shop, then you might consider going with Dinan since they would help help out.

You can also go the other way and hide everything by flashing back etc but that's a slippery slope. The 1M community is small and word gets out, especially on the web. In San Diego the president of the BMW CCA is a tech at my dealer. It would be hard to hide me going to a BMW CCA event where he is the president. On the other hand, he autocrosses himself and seems very reasonable. I am not sure how much flashing back erases. I am sure it restores the programming but not sure if it retains telltale data like max boost, max revs etc that could give you away. Not to mention clutch blueing, etc. This one is more a matter of personal choice. I am involving my dealer.

On Exhaust:
I love the sound of the 1M especially in the morning and I'm OK with it quieting down little bit because it's a daily driver with little kids and we talk sometimes BUT they also love the sound and a little more power and sound couldn't hurt. I think that would be a good mod without risking driveline/transmission.

On blowing motor up:
Too many variables. All it takes is someone finding out on here that you put some tune and things could go south in a hurry. There was a guy in an M3 in Germany that threw a rod and was talking about it. Even the fellow M3 guys told him to get rid of the youtube videos of him racing and hauling butt on the autobahn. He ended up having to pay. It sounds like you want middle ground, some reliability. I think the exhaust sounds great. If they make an intake for more sound/airflow, probably good. A little increase in power is probably better than a huge one. This car already has issues putting power down on boost. If anything, I would prefer less lag and more linear response over more power.

On maintenance:
It has also been my experience that they will do maintenance work on modified cars. For example, I had an intake and it was due for an air filter under service. They just skipped the filter and told me they can't do it because I have something else in there.

On transmission:
One thing to consider speaking of transmission (OK, let me put my flame suit since it seems sometimes that nobody cars what engineers think on here) is that huge increases in power would be more worrisome for me on the 1M over the E90/92/93 chassis.

The 1 series chassis is an older design and actually shared some design elements with the E46 chassis. Many aspects of our 1M are already near to top of its design scope and in the case of the gearbox already near it's rated limit. For example:

1M gearbox is ZF GS6-45BZ

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...21&hg=23&fg=05

It is rated by ZF at 470 NM input torque ( 346.61 lb ft)

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/produ...smission.shtml

(Go to technical information Tab, listed as S6-45)


The 1M already makes 320 lb ft of torque ( I hope I don't need to prove that to the doubters also ) So the 1M is already at 92% of its rated torque rating. Forgot 369 lb ft in overboost.

For comparison the E90/92/93 M3 Manual Gearbox is the S6-53 model rated at 600 NM (442 lb feet). It makes 295 lb ft so it is only at 67% of its rated capacity.

So let's say you go with Dinan's upgrade on the 1M that makes 378 horsepower at 5700 rpm and 415 lb-ft torque at 4300 rpm .

(NOTE: I am not picking on Dinan, think highly of them, only using them because I trust their ratings, but same concern applies to any other tuner that hugely increases torque.)

So you are now exceeding the rated input torque of the gearbox by 20%.

We can only guess what BMW's position would be on running 120% of the max rated input torque for the gearbox, and probably clutch too. I don't even know what Dinan or ESS or any tuner would do if you crush the gearbox. Just some food for thought on huge power increases.

For you flamers out there, I am only offering data for fellow 1Mers to weigh their choices.

Again, if the dealer put the Dinan upgrade, they might help you with problems, but that is really the first place to start. A good post for you might be to identify good, mod-friendly dealers in your area that back up their work.

Good luck and share your experiences in case others Mod.

[ozinaldo]

Sorry but a few facts:

1M makes 369 lb. ft of torque and in fact it makes a minimum 400 according to all dynos that was posted in internet. So are we supposed to get worried because it is quite "over" the capacity stated? I would not believe that easily, I am sure that gearbox has been adapted nicely by the M division as well.

1 series chassis/suspension shares almost every component with the E90 not with E46, if there is anything common with E46 that must be minimum; actually 1 series in its hatch form was the first to use that platform and right after it was applied to E90 sedan and following body variants.

[1swift1]

Great info and I appreciate any and all opinions!!

Keep your stories and experience coming about this topic, please, everyone.

Anyone know which mods will definitely cause a check engine light and which ones will absolutely not?

[nachob]

Yes, didn't count the overboost torque which already puts it past ZF's input torque rating.

Good catch. Too busy trying to get supporting docs together. And yes, I have seen report that it might make more than that.

Thank you for that. As far as 1 series chassis some of the components come from E90...diff, shock mounts, some suspension pieces, mirrors but actual chassis pre-dates E90 and the gearbox gearbox is rated lower than M3s. The point of all this is that according to specs, the 1M is closer to the limit than E90 M3 which should be considered with large power increases.

So is your point that it is not closer to the limit than M3? On the chassis based on E46. I like to back things up with sources. I cannot find a source on that at the moment, but read it several times in the past, but my point is that the transmission appears to be near (or past if you count 369 lb ft overboost) If I find my source, I will post it too.

[hybris4u]

Yes you do void factory warranty! No question about that! Simple BMW Performance tuning no problem. Engine tuning and exhaust = void. I would say you need to prove the issues is not related to any tuning. Can be an ugly discussion where it all depense on your relationship with the dealer. I see no reason to go beyond BMW OEM performance mods. But that is me... Have to say there are many terrible mods done on this wonderful car. But its up to you! Please avoid the pornotuning! This car is worth a better fate!

[ozinaldo]

No, I had no intention like that. Actually I agree that 1M is somehow closer to its design limit compared to E90 M3 and most part of it is because of the extra torque plus other things you have stated in detail.

About the pre-E90 design, don't forget that BMW like most other manufacturers designs platforms for more than one body variants and in this case the "mostly common" platform was implemented in the 1 series hatch, a year or two before the E90 hitted the showrooms. I was very much interested with both the 1 series hatch and the coming E90 so I think I remember this clearly.

[nachob]

Ozinaldo, missed your reply before posting this.

Anyway, I am trying to find a source for the sake of accuracy on much components based on E46, there appears to be conflicting statements.

The 1 series E81 was introduced in 2004 and shared components many elements of it's predecessor. In 2007 our E82 came out. Not sure how much of the original structural elements came over from E81 into E82.

If anyone has a source, I would love to know.

Thank you.

Gotta get back to some real work now.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by ozinaldo

No, I had no intention like that. Actually I agree that 1M is somehow closer to its design limit compared to E90 M3 and most part of it is because of the extra torque plus other things you have stated in detail.

About the pre-E90 design, don't forget that BMW like most other manufacturers designs platforms for more than one body variants and in this case the "mostly common" platform was implemented in the 1 series hatch, a year or two before the E90 hitted the showrooms. I was very much interested with both the 1 series hatch and the coming E90 so I think I remember this clearly.

I missed your reply, so I wasn't ignoring yours. I had the edit window open while looking for sources.

Anyway, not sure how much came over from E81-E82. There are several sources that say E81 shared much of it's structure from E46 but they are not solid sources like the ZF website so I don't want to propagate those. I value accuracy so thanks for catching my oversight and if you come with some sources I prefer to be wrong and accurate.

Thanks again

[nachob]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

pornotuning! This car is worth a better fate!

Pornotuning... I love it, never heard that before! I learn new things here all the time. Great point.

[rad doc]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

Yes you do void factory warranty! No question about that! Simple BMW Performance tuning no problem. Engine tuning and exhaust = void. I would say you need to prove the issues is not related to any tuning. Can be an ugly discussion where it all depense on your relationship with the dealer. I see no reason to go beyond BMW OEM performance mods. But that is me... Have to say there are many terrible mods done on this wonderful car. But its up to you! Please avoid the pornotuning! This car is worth a better fate!

Exhaust is NOT gonna void warranty. Tune may. But unlike what this
post states, the burden is on the dealer to prove the mod caused the problem not for owner to prove it didnt. In general, dealers want to cover big repairs under warranty as long as they arent concerned about bmw questioning it. They get paid. If it isnt covered there is a reasonable chance the customer may go elsewhere.

[Funindubai]

I'm new to BMW, but know from my GTR that Nissan had installed a system that would record in its memory the events that led to an incident, kinda black box. Wonder whether BMW has anything of that sort?

[1swift1]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Exhaust is NOT gonna void warranty. Tune may. But unlike what this
post states, the burden is on the dealer to prove the mod caused the problem not for owner to prove it didnt. In general, dealers want to cover big repairs under warranty as long as they arent concerned about bmw questioning it. They get paid. If it isnt covered there is a reasonable chance the customer may go elsewhere.

That's what I've heard from multiple sources also, (that you won't void warranty by changing your exhaust). Since I'm new to the whole concept of changing/modifying cars, does anyone know if it matters which part/parts of the exhaust you change? Does the definition of the exhaust system begin at the DPs? At the mids? At the axle?

[Powerbeast]

Don't worry about a thing just mod to your liking with quality and tasteful mods.

[flzrider]

When it comes to mods and warranties in the U.S., the dealer/manufacturer has to prove that the modification is the cause of the failure in order to deny warranty work.

Read the following:

Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

Keeping Your Mod's Warranty Intact: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...ty-intact.html

[hybris4u]

Aha that is different over here. Pretty sure exhaust would be an issue also over here. If something get broken that could in theory be connected to the exhaust... But seems you have better consumer laws for cars over there!

[Dackelone]

*IF* your gonna play (ie: Mod) then you better be ready to PAY.

[chachacha28]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

*IF* your gonna play (ie: Mod) then you better be ready to PAY.

quite possibly the smartest thing said on this forum to date.

[Dackelone]

Guys... remember a few weeks back when BrokenVert and BimmerEngineer said that BMW AG now has anti-tuner software in thier GT1(and hence in our car's DME when we get an update). When you go in for service BMW can now detect MODs done to the engine DME. I did not believe that at first... but I was talking to my German dealer and he confirmed this to me. I did not even bring teh subject up... he was telling me about it! He said as soon as the car is scan'd for faults... the GT1 also checks the car's SW(and boost levels) for mods. IF something is detected, the car's VIN is flagged to BMW AG. No more warranty. I don't know all the specifics but it looks like this is very real.


...here was that thread. I am now a believer.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...=211061&page=7

[Oaktree]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

*IF* your gonna play (ie: Mod) then you better be ready to PAY.

This is accurate. The way I've always looked at it is if the dealer can link a mod to the issue then you could be held liable.
Cat-back exhaust = slightly reducing back pressure and increasing sound. Very hard for BMW to claim caused an engine or turbo to blow.
Mid-pipe or downpipes = Major gray zone for me. Removing cats is a no-no legally so on that alone I think they could make a case. But damages from making it exhale easier would be hard to prove???
Tune = increasing the pressure and air being forced into the internals of the engine, more heat, more everything across the board in the motor...yes, if I were BMW I think I could make a case on this one.
Air Filter = if you get one that meet's the same micron filtering as BMW its going to be hard to say making it easier for the motor to breath caused motor damage. The only thing I could see is if it changes the air/fuel ratio but with a turbo motor it should compensate without issue.
Suspension wear = If your changing the alignment angles, springs, coilovers, I could see BMW making a link that the bushings are taking more abuse versus the stock components (if its stiffer which normally they are).

Moral of the story or at least how I think of it - if BMW could make a case that X item caused X damage then don't do it or be ready to pay. Hopefully you have a cool dealer and they want to help you out because your a enthusiast. If anyone has anything to add to the above please do - this is just how I look at the moding situation.

[hybris4u]

The question is do you really need to chip the 1M? I think its a pretty quick and good car as it is OEM. Personally I just go for simple appearance tuning that can be easily restored to original OEM style. Just me...

The only reason I can see going hard on the 1M is the real track enthusiast. Meaning building a true track car.

[robertm]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

The question is do you really need to chip the 1M? I think its a pretty quick and good car as it is OEM. Personally I just go for simple appearance tuning that can be easily restored to original OEM style. Just me...

The only reason I can see going hard on the 1M is the real track enthusiast. Meaning building a true track car.

That's not the question. The OP’s question is whether mods will void the warranty. This simple answer is yes. If the mod is the cause of a failure then it will not be covered. If the mod wasn't the cause of the failure then no.

As for FMIC, DPs, midpipes, intake, axle back and software, all of this has been done many, many times on the n54 for going on 4+ years now. I've never once read of someone blowing up a motor as a result. If you get quality pieces, get a well respected tune, always change your oil (5k mi) and you always let the car warm up (and cool) then you will be EXTREMELY unlikely to ever have issue. The possibility is there but the percentage of likelihood is infinitesimal.