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      12-18-2008, 12:25 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
Are you sh**ing me?

OMG!!!!!!
Nope, he's not. I saw the thread.
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      12-18-2008, 12:27 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
I think your attitude on this is exemplary in general and I know you are a reasonable individual, but if you were suddenly extracted from this and were looking in from the outside, what should the process and policy be? It is intuitively obvious that a down pipe doesn't impact a rear view mirror. Other things are less obvious (though we all know in this forum that there is a very high probability that BMW fuel pumps have issues). Who decides? If it's the BMW service manager, is this individual going to be impartial?

Thank you, and actually in this case it was a BMW regional rep that made the call, without even bothering to look into the real cause of the problem. All he needed to know was that there was a wiring modification at the ECU, and that was it, case closed. They're not impartial by any means, and that's exactly why it's not fair.

That said, I have options that could swing this back my way, I'm not exercising them just because of the time and money involved, and what I'd get for my trouble.

If I were someone who wasn't capable of fixing this problem on my own (meaning labor hours were going to be involved), I would probably take a different attitude about it.
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      12-18-2008, 12:28 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
+1

We have threads on:
  • Deceiving the police regarding front license plates (use double sided tape for ticket sign-off, then promptly remove)
  • Deceiving the DMV, police, etc. on emission laws (see ads for O2 Simulators)
  • Avoiding speeding tickets (see radar detectors, illegal is some states)
  • And others.
I can't see how a discussion on warrenty work is worse than the above....there's nothing illegal about removing codes from YOUR car. :iono:
:eyebulge:

After you damaged the vehicle? Of course there is.
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      12-18-2008, 12:30 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
Are you sh**ing me?

OMG!!!!!!
Don't you think that is offensive to members on this board that work for dealerships? We have plenty (Sales/Techs)
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      12-18-2008, 12:38 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
:eyebulge:

After you damaged the vehicle? Of course there is.
No, there isn't. I think you are trying to imply that fraud is present, but that's not true...but then again it depends on who's side your on :wink:.
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      12-18-2008, 12:41 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
:eyebulge:

After you damaged the vehicle? Of course their is.
Ok, so is it also illegal if a car is involved in an accident, dealer fixes it, and its resold to an unsuspecting consumer? We'd be arresting quite a few CAs.
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      12-18-2008, 12:56 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
No, there isn't. I think you are trying to imply that fraud is present, but that's not true...but then again it depends on who's side your on :wink:.
On nobody's side. (In fact the dealership I have to use, for the most part, are a bunch of lying incompetent thieves. I did finally find an SA who seems competent and honest, but I'm sure they will fire him before my next visit.)

That said, you are right, there is no fraud in removing codes or mods from your car. However, as soon as you use this act to try to pass off the car as not having had mods or not having thrown codes, it becomes fraud. The fraud is in the deception. As soon as you state to the dealer that you have not modded the car it is fraud. (Or do you plan to come clean if they ask?)

All of you armchair attorneys (particularly those quoting MFA to defend altering performance parameters) really need to run this by a qualified professional. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
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      12-18-2008, 01:01 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davemohan View Post
On nobody's side. (In fact the dealership I have to use, for the most part, are a bunch of lying incompetent thieves. I did finally find an SA who seems competent and honest, but I'm sure they will fire him before my next visit.)

That said, you are right, there is no fraud in removing codes or mods from your car. However, as soon as you use this act to try to pass off the car as not having had mods or not having thrown codes, it becomes fraud. The fraud is in the deception. As soon as you state to the dealer that you have not modded the car it is fraud. (Or do you plan to come clean if they ask?)

All of you armchair attorneys (particularly those quoting MFA to defend altering performance parameters) really need to run this by a qualified professional. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
I'm attorney, but by no means qualified in this area.

Would you mind going through the elements of fraud, and how removing the codes for service would safisfy those elements?
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      12-18-2008, 01:18 PM   #163
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Here's the elements I picked up. Didn't go through them all, but it appears that proving damages is going to be the biggest issue. Ya'll are assuming a hell of a lot when you talk about there being fraud...

1. The first element is a false representation of material fact.

2. false representation be made with knowledge of its falsity, recklessly, or without reasonable grounds for believing its truth.

3. Intent to induce reliance.

4. Justifiable reliance. THe dealer's reliance may not be justifiable in light of the plaintiff's (dealers) intelligence and experience.

5. Damages. Are there any? If the problem is unrelated to the mods (i.e. factory defect, pre-existing problem), then the dealer should have fixed it anyways.
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      12-18-2008, 01:39 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
Here's the elements I picked up. Didn't go through them all, but it appears that proving damages is going to be the biggest issue. Ya'll are assuming a hell of a lot when you talk about there being fraud...

1. The first element is a false representation of material fact.

Removing codes certainly seems to qualify here.

2. false representation be made with knowledge of its falsity, recklessly, or without reasonable grounds for believing its truth.

This applies as well.

3. Intent to induce reliance.

The intent is to get warranty work done. Assume that means 'reliance'

4. Justifiable reliance. THe dealer's reliance may not be justifiable in light of the plaintiff's (dealers) intelligence and experience.

This would be corporate BMW, one of the most historically successful in this business. I think they would be found competent.

5. Damages. Are there any? If the problem is unrelated to the mods (i.e. factory defect, pre-existing problem), then the dealer should have fixed it anyways.
Who is to say there are damages or not? Does the perpetrator decide that a mod is related to a failure or not? Does BMW? Should someone have to pay for arbitration? Seems like BMW is the only plausible solution and by denying them that course, and by the elements stated, it is fraud. That would not only be highly unethical making the perpetrator a liar and a cheat, but would, in fact, be illegal.

Oh.. and I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but thanks for the tidy list.
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      12-18-2008, 02:00 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Seems like BMW is the only plausible solution and by denying them that course, and by the elements stated, it is fraud. That would not only be highly unethical making the perpetrator a liar and a cheat, but would, in fact, be illegal.
I don't understand the last bit, but it doesn't matter. The point is that there are many obsticles to proving fraud, and it just not something anyone should assume is present. Removing the codes by itself isn't going to do it, and neither is lying to the dealer about mods. Running 30psi and blowing the turbo's, removing all traces of the mods, and getting the work done under warranty...maybe.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't "pay to play". I'm just saying that I think the dealer is more likely to break the rules than me. This is what needs to be done sometimes to keep things fair. After all, they are the ***elerships, right? :biggrin:
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      12-18-2008, 02:00 PM   #166
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I was going to google "warranty fraud" here at work......but.......decided against it haha
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      12-18-2008, 02:01 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ktdw View Post

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't "pay to play". I'm just saying that I think the dealer is more likely to break the rules than me. This is what needs to be done sometimes to keep things fair. After all, they are the ***elerships, right? :biggrin:

+1000000000000
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      12-18-2008, 02:26 PM   #168
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Quote:
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Don't you think that is offensive to members on this board that work for dealerships? We have plenty (Sales/Techs)
Didn't mean to offend our local CA/SA's or Techs...Was meant to be 'tongue-in-cheek':iono:
If we are going to be that sensitive about that type of adjective then we probably should ban the use of a word like 'ricer'(rice, riced, ricing, etc, etc...) and its implied stereotypical connotations don't you think?
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      12-18-2008, 02:47 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrean8j View Post
Didn't mean to offend our local CA/SA's or Techs...Was meant to be 'tongue-in-cheek':iono:
If we are going to be that sensitive about that type of adjective then we probably should ban the use of a word like 'ricer'(rice, riced, ricing, etc, etc...) and its implied stereotypical connotations don't you think?
I'm all for that rule since you can't even discuss a JDM car on here without at least a few people calling it rice.

And for the record, "stealership" is such a hack term.
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      12-18-2008, 02:51 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Evolved View Post

And for the record, "stealership" is such a hack term.
Hack term, yet unfortunately, frequently true.
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      12-18-2008, 02:55 PM   #171
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Isn't "rice" just Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhansements? But I only got that recently...for the longest time I thought it referred to region the cars usually originated. And I was quite offended too
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      12-18-2008, 04:00 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackjackMulligan View Post
Hack term, yet unfortunately, frequently true.
Than don't buy their product, no one is forcing you to hand your money over to them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ktdw View Post
Isn't "rice" just Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhansements? But I only got that recently...for the longest time I thought it referred to region the cars usually originated. And I was quite offended too
um.......no.
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      12-18-2008, 04:03 PM   #173
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Than don't buy their product, no one is forcing you to hand your money over to them.
yeah, great point.
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      12-18-2008, 04:23 PM   #174
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Alrighty then! Definitely turned into a "Warranty Gone Wild" thread that's gone well beyond its useful life.

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