Weight/Handling, 135i vs. 335i

[sectos]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Oh and if you think an M is track worthy i tell you some stories which i have seen on track.

M6 on track all oil under the car.
M6 on track Catalist on fire
M3 E46 Brakes on fire
M3 E46 CSL Vanos oil pipe broke oil under the car
Lots of M3 engines bearing problems blown engines on track oil temp above 120 degrees.
M5 E60 rear diff broke down on track


I race a lot with race cars and i drive also a lot street cars on track so i have seen enough.

Buying an expensive M doesn t mean it s more track worthy then non M cars.

I have driven the 130i cup it s almost a standard car with a roll cage. If you see how we use those cars you think this car will brake in 2 piece we are flying with 4 wheels of the ground over curbs drive in rev limiters etc. The car is just fantastic. An M model was much better in early days but nowadays a normal bmw is just as good.

I agrre with you, even with an M model you have to do some "adjustements" if you do a lot of track

the main difference is, that the M model is usually the most powerfull from a given serie

[Advevo]

yes but with turbo s it s easy to have more power.

I have had 2 liter mitsubishi evo s 2 liter and 380hp easy.

So 3.0 6cil turbo must do 400 hp with so much ease.

Atmo engines are on it s limit between 110 en 120hp per liter.

[R32]

Originally Posted by Advevo

But if youre going for pure driving fun and performance give me a 135i on track anyday i know for certain it give just as much pleasure maybe even more. And if you spend a little extra money on the 135i like a LSD 380 hp nice shocks you have the blast of youre life.

that is my dearest hope-- that doing track tires/pads, chip, suspension, and lsd would make the 135i the ultimate daily driver/weekend track car out there.

do you know if the 130i cup car that you have driven has any other reinforcements (subframe, suspension, etc.) other than the roll cage?

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Oh and if you think an M is track worthy i tell you some stories which i have seen on track.

M6 on track all oil under the car.
M6 on track Catalist on fire
M3 E46 Brakes on fire
M3 E46 CSL Vanos oil pipe broke oil under the car
Lots of M3 engines bearing problems blown engines on track oil temp above 120 degrees.
M5 E60 rear diff broke down on track


I race a lot with race cars and i drive also a lot street cars on track so i have seen enough.

Buying an expensive M doesn t mean it s more track worthy then non M cars.

I have driven the 130i cup it s almost a standard car with a roll cage. If you see how we use those cars you think this car will brake in 2 piece we are flying with 4 wheels of the ground over curbs drive in rev limiters etc. The car is just fantastic. An M model was much better in early days but nowadays a normal bmw is just as good.

I have an E46 m3 with 36000 miles about 30000 track miles. Stock it was still great as long as you put race pads on it. Now all I have done to it was put a bilstine PSS9 springs and shocks swapped the front strut bearings left to right for more neg camber and it flies. I also have a Race prepared E36 M3 and have driven many different cars on the track race and street and there is always a chance of something breaking so that little list doesn’t mean much to me.

I know M5s and M6s are not track cars by any means. But Ms come with limited slips, stiffer suspensions, more powerful motors, bigger breaks and especially here in USA where we don’t get all the M sport packages or anything really special. Most of the sport packages have no difference in suspension its just a trim level. Usually the Ms are a much better track car. There are very few cars that totally stocks are great track cars but the Ms are closer than others.

[adc]

Originally Posted by 335ito135i

IT seems with the 6 piston's up front, slight weight advantage, and shorter wheelbase will make the oner beat the 3er on tighter, slower, tracks. But on longer, higher speed tracks, I doubt we will see much of a difference, as in the nurburgring.

If the suspension is tighter, it *will* make a difference, IMO. Suspension was the biggest failing on the 335 when I took it on the Ring. Power was good, brakes were good (big speeds on a flowing track means good cooling), oil temps still reasonable, but the damping just could not keep up with the body movements at those high speeds.

And of course, the runflats - but the 135 will be saddled with those too...

Originally Posted by BMWeber

Those brakes are more important on high speed tracks than low speed ones. I'll bet the 135I would best the 335i on the nurburgring and mostly because of the better breaking performance.

I'm not so sure - like I said, brakes on the 335 felt awesome. I found braking more critical on some of the US tracks I've been to - where you would have to slow down from 140mph to 40mph on each and every short lap...

I calculated that average speed for me was around 86 mph on the Ring, but in my old 330 only about 60 mph on US tracks. So I expect those nice brakes to make more of a difference on US tracks.

Then again, the rotor diameter is smaller on the 135 vs. 335 (13.4" vs. 13.7") - so maybe fade resistance will be similar, but perhaps modulation will be better? :iono:

Let's just all wait and see... :smile:

[BMWeber]

I under stand what your saying about slowing down from 140 to 40 but 140-80 is where you really put the most heat in the breaks so if your doing most of your breaking at high speeds your going put more heat into the breaks. lots of US track you never get above 130 and even that its only one spot on the track. But like you said we really have to wait and see

[CDR_UK]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Which begs the question... what have they done about oil cooling?

JMO, but if it's truly intended to be a performance machine,
the oil temps as per the 335i are way too high for much use on the track.

The S54 in my Z4M doesn't run much over 100 degC on the track.
The N54 on the street runs WAY hotter than that.

The 135i has no fog lights, and an intake to direct air straight to the oil cooler - exactly the same as on the e92 M3.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by CDR_UK

The 135i has no fog lights, and an intake to direct air straight to the oil cooler - exactly the same as on the e92 M3.

1st time I've heard of ducted air to the oil cooler.... that's good news.

...do you recall where you saw this?

I've also heard that Dinan is working on a cooler retrofit for the 335i..
something about changing tubing size to change fluid velocity etc....
It'd be nice if it worked for the 1er as well.

[mikeo]

The shorter wheelbase of the 135i will also improve handling dynamics I would think.

[BMWeber]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The shorter wheelbase of the 135i will also improve handling dynamics I would think.

I think one of the big thing to is a slightly shorter wheel base and a lot less overhang past the wheel base

[R32]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

1st time I've heard of ducted air to the oil cooler.... that's good news.

...do you recall where you saw this?

here's a pic of the right side air duct-- the oil cooler is behind this, and opens into the front rear well.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8180626...7601966707637/

credit: drillslinger, who posted his excellent pics in the frankfurt show coverage thread.:w00t:

[AR230WAKEBOARDER]

I just hope the suspension in 2x a stiff as the 335i. I have a procede 335i and it feels like a boat going around the corners. My 350z was so much better with road feel and cornering ability.

[321]

Originally Posted by ar230wakeboarder

I just hope the suspension in 2x a stiff as the 335i. I have a procede 335i and it feels like a boat going around the corners. My 350z was so much better with road feel and cornering ability.

do you have the sports package?