M2: would you mind a 4-cylinder layout ?

[trinity_2200]

4-cyl with cast iron block sound good to me

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Yeah i'm just talking about acceleration/top speed

They could absolutely take the 4cyl faster from the factory... But that wont help it overtake the 6cyl's in potential, which should be a lot of what m's are about... Their ability to STAY a faster car than their non m brothers.

*shrug* you planning on street racing or going to drag strip?

MOD games. Same old story as ever. Modify a non M car and what do you get... A car that only a few people can appreciate... and more than likely you trash the resale value. Buy an M car... and it has better performance stock to stock.... and of course has a much higher resale value.

E30 M3 vs E30 325 - these cars were nearly identical stock to stock
E90 M3 vs E90 335 - a tweaked 335 will kill a modded M3.. if all one cares about is straight line..
Most Bimmer owners are a little more sophisiticated than going out and playing stoplight to stoplight.

And actually... I will correct you... M cars are not about being able to be modified more than the underlying non M model. I really don't think M engineers care for a single moment about whether someone can mod an underlying model for more performance than the M car. Who cares about that at all anyway? Their goal is to redesign the car for better performance all around while still being DEAD ON RELIABLE. And without a doubt a tweaked out car is more fragile.. Perhaps not immediately... but over the long haul.

[timbo_3101]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

*shrug* you planning on street racing or going to drag strip?

MOD games. Same old story as ever. Modify a non M car and what do you get... A car that only a few people can appreciate... and more than likely you trash the resale value. Buy an M car... and it has better performance stock to stock.... and of course has a much higher resale value.

E30 M3 vs E30 325 - these cars were nearly identical stock to stock
E90 M3 vs E90 335 - a tweaked 335 will kill a modded M3.. if all one cares about is straight line..

Most Bimmer owners are a little more sophisiticated than going out and playing stoplight to stoplight.

True that it is difficult or impossible to compare stock against modified vehicles re performance.

However, I am not too sure that us Bimmer owners are more sophisticated than non-Bimmer owners. At least on 1addicts/Australia, 1er enthusiasts are more likely to dress up the E82 and add tunes or exhaust ... than actually enhancing performance (handling). The attitudes seem to be more biased towards hp output.

Having said this, is there any stock vehicle which you would autocross or race? For myself, probably not (ie we are as much a niche population as the non-M modders) ... so even if the M2 weighs 2900lb, it will still need competition tyres and suspension!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

True that it is difficult or impossible to compare stock against modified vehicles re performance.

However, I am not too sure that us Bimmer owners are more sophisticated than non-Bimmer owners. At least on 1addicts/Australia, 1er enthusiasts are more likely to dress up the E82 and add tunes or exhaust ... than actually enhancing performance (handling). The attitudes seem to be more biased towards hp output.

Having said this, is there any stock vehicle which you would autocross or race? For myself, probably not (ie we are as much a niche population as the non-M modders) ... so even if the M2 weighs 2900lb, it will still need competition tyres and suspension!

my 1M...

Autocross... many times. track.... its been on 11 different tracks... Competition tires.. check.

In the US... BMWs are typically quite a bit more expensive than cars like.. Ford Mustang.. Camaro... and common Japanese tuner cars like the STI and Evo. however with the new turbo models.. there is a growing BMW tuner crowd... but as you mentioned.. most are modified for looks and not really true track driving.. I call them " SHOW" mods... not GO mods. Even if they have power mods, the owners don't typically track them.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

*shrug* you planning on street racing or going to drag strip?

MOD games. Same old story as ever. Modify a non M car and what do you get... A car that only a few people can appreciate... and more than likely you trash the resale value. Buy an M car... and it has better performance stock to stock.... and of course has a much higher resale value.

E30 M3 vs E30 325 - these cars were nearly identical stock to stock
E90 M3 vs E90 335 - a tweaked 335 will kill a modded M3.. if all one cares about is straight line..
Most Bimmer owners are a little more sophisiticated than going out and playing stoplight to stoplight.

And actually... I will correct you... M cars are not about being able to be modified more than the underlying non M model. I really don't think M engineers care for a single moment about whether someone can mod an underlying model for more performance than the M car. Who cares about that at all anyway? Their goal is to redesign the car for better performance all around while still being DEAD ON RELIABLE. And without a doubt a tweaked out car is more fragile.. Perhaps not immediately... but over the long haul.

Yeah but an e90 m3 with a blower them vs the modded 335

A better comparison would be 1m vs 135i... Yeah you can swap all the 1m parts over but it takes a lot of money and effort... Thats where the 1m has the advantage.

The moment when you pay more for the ///M badge when the non-m can easily out perform it, it when you tell everyone around you that you're an idiot.

[Rowdy]

Sign me up for a 300hp sub 3000lb 4cyl M2.. So long as it's got a 6spd and LSD… I could care less about idrive power this and that and a multitude of electrogadgets that will be old tech by the time it goes in for its first service.

[rad doc]

Dont think I could do it. I know the e30 had an I4 but it was so raw. I am driving a 328i loaner and it feels so boring and sterile. Reminds me of an altima. But worst of all, the sound is terrible. The 1m certainly doesnt make the noise of the e90 but the 4 banger is awful! If the m2 sounded like that I would very disappointed starting it.

[Tony135]

If I was buying this car, I'd want the I6 butttttt I think if it's a 4 cylinder it'll keep some value on the 1M.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

*shrug* you planning on street racing or going to drag strip? [...]
Most Bimmer owners are a little more sophisiticated than going out and playing stoplight to stoplight. [...]

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Dont think I could do it. I know the e30 had an I4 but it was so raw. I am driving a 328i loaner and it feels so boring and sterile. Reminds me of an altima. But worst of all, the sound is terrible. The 1m certainly doesnt make the noise of the e90 but the 4 banger is awful! If the m2 sounded like that I would very disappointed starting it.

Do you seriously think the sonic characterisitics of a plebian daily driver are going to be anything near the same as an M motor?

Have you ever heard a BMW S14 at full song? Do you think it sounds the same as an E30 318 M42 , which is also a four cylinder motor from the same era? Ever heard the difference in intake sound between a stock E30 M3 and one with a Carbon Fiber intake ? The intake alone transforms the sound of the motor..

In building an S20 vs the N20....

Do you think the intake and exhaust valves might be larger?
Do you think the air intake might be designed differently?
Do you think an M car might have the exhaust routed differently?
Do you think the diameter of the exhaust might be larger?
Do you think they might use a Freer flowing catalytic converter..?
Do you think they might design a different HEADER?
I am sure you know the QUAD pipes that are a feature in the rear valance of M cars

Do you think that the entire sonic characteristics might be different because the motor is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?

Do you think there might be less sound deadening in an M car versus a 328 ?

I know you are frustrated with the fact that you have loaner... but holy apples and oranges doc... put your thinking cap on ....


You are right... the 328 compared to a 1M is boring and sterile... because it was designed and engineered that way! It's not supposed to be a load roaring exhaust. The average 328 buyer is undoubtedly far more concerned about a quiet interior than hearing the exhaust note and that car is designed and tuned for MASS production as well as fuel economy. The startup characteristics arent tuned for a sporty startup like the 1M. not to mention that a motor designed for an application of say... 3000-5000 cars annually is going to be completely different from the motor that is being used in 3 HUNDRED THOUSAND annual 128/228/328/528/X1/X3.


S14 with stock intake and aftermarket muffler

S14 with CF Airbox

BMW S14 full race motor with CF airbox

I think BMW figured out how to make a 4 cylinder sound pretty DAMN good back in 1986 or so... I'm thinking they can figure it out again...

[rad doc]

Fair enough, but I still think the actual mechanical engine noise on a 4 cylinder is not as nice. I am not talking about exhaust note. Sure BMW/M can make it sound great but will they? Or will the bean counters push a tuned N26 out to keep the M3 on top?

But you are probably right. I am frustrated with my 328i loaner car. It just really is not a very good car, even for a daily driver.

[Ginger_Extract]

I'd be down for a N/A I-4 that screamed, and had character like the E30M. However, the days of minimalist, light-weight racers for the road are gone, my friend.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

No. Having owned a modded 135i, this is an ignorant statement. In a straight line yes, but on a track, no

That's what i mean though... without heavy modification the 135i mod for mod will be slightly slower than the 1M even in a straight line... best case, the 135i will be neck and neck in a straight line, but first corner, the 1M is off and away. in no way is the 1M inferior to the 135i.

so far, there's never really been an 'M' that's not faster than the non-M in the same series, as long as we're talking sensible mods lol... sure, the 335i can be made faster than the M3 CHEAPER than the M3.. but as soon as you put a blower on the M, it's gone.. (single turbo built blah blah notwithstanding).. And even on the Extremes, the M's usually have a tougher motor (1M notwithstanding). Given a bigger turbo on an M135i, it'd be hard to keep a 4cyl M2 ahead even around a track, as long as there's a good straight.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by rad doc

Fair enough, but I still think the actual mechanical engine noise on a 4 cylinder is not as nice. I am not talking about exhaust note. Sure BMW/M can make it sound great but will they? Or will the bean counters push a tuned N26 out to keep the M3 on top?

But you are probably right. I am frustrated with my 328i loaner car. It just really is not a very good car, even for a daily driver.

the F30 328 is one of THE most boring cars I've driven.....sterile. soft, and very pedestrian. It's rare to drive a BMW so uninspiring....i guess that suits the masses just fine though. ugh.

and you're right. 4 bangers don't naturally have a good sound. they can be modded and tweaked to make a good sound....but rarely out of the box

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

4 bangers don't naturally have a good sound. they can be modded and tweaked to make a good sound....but rarely out of the box

A CF airbox à la E46 M3 CSL (a 6 banger, I know) would be a good start.

[pkimM3r]

i think i am in the wrong car/demographic....i should be trading my m3 for a 1m (i wish there was availability!)...i gotta agree with M stands for manual

gotta see the DCT vs. MT threads going on over there.

I wouldn't mind a lighter 2M / M2 with decent power and it will be really quick around a circuit for sure!

[1M Fan]

The car is ultimately a packaged deal. Overall execution is far more important than the individual parts. It needs to be fun to drive, work great on the track, be liveable in the daily commute, run like a scalded dog, stick like super glue, have a manual option and cost less than $55K. Engine size doesn't matter as long as it is better than the current 1M.

[mrow]

I'm not sure how they'd be able to sell the M2 with a turbo 4 when the M235i is a turbo 6. I know you can do some awesome things with 4 cylinders these days (a la the 355hp 2.0 liter in the CLA45) but people are still too conscious about cylinder count. Maybe taking the new M3/M4 block and chopping off a cylinder for a turbo I5? That would certainly make it something very unique that could make people over look the smaller cylinder counter vs. the M235i. The question would be whether BMW thinks they could sell enough to recoup the cost of engineering something like that. Chopping off 2 cylinders is a lot simpler than chopping off 1.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by mrow

I'm not sure how they'd be able to sell the M2 with a turbo 4 when the M235i is a turbo 6. I know you can do some awesome things with 4 cylinders these days (a la the 355hp 2.0 liter in the CLA45) but people are still too conscious about cylinder count. Maybe taking the new M3/M4 block and chopping off a cylinder for a turbo I5? That would certainly make it something very unique that could make people over look the smaller cylinder counter vs. the M235i. The question would be whether BMW thinks they could sell enough to recoup the cost of engineering something like that. Chopping off 2 cylinders is a lot simpler than chopping off 1.

turbo 5?? I think that's Audi's game, man! can't imagine BMW making that.

[mb135is]

I have no idea what has unfolded in this thread to this point (though I imagine it's contentious), but I will respond to the original question:

No, I would not mind. I actually hope it's some hopped up, state of the art, quirky 4 banger.

[MightyMouseTech]

You mean like the MB CLA? Some boosted to hell 4 banger that leaves no room for increasing it? When is starts at 26# of boost, you are not going to be doing much with it.

[mcx_]

Originally Posted by Redadair

Nothing wrong with a highly tuned 4 cylinder. I have owned 2 WRX STi's and tuned the crap out of both. BMW 4 cylinder engines started BMW in North America in the 1600, 2002 and 2002tii. Should BMW decide to go with a 4 in the M2 it will be great.

As long as they fix the FU*King sound issues they are doing with the M5 and now M3/M4. Leave a good thing alone. I can see some moron sales people telling the M group the 4 cylinder should sound like and F18 fighter Jet or worse a V8 and then pipe it into the stereo. Please

Completely agree Rededair... have a 991 c2s and the engine induction noise is piped through holes in the bulkhead... awful... am in the process of bunging the holes up as soon as i get the chance. Also think for a road performance car, gotta be a 6.. sooo smooth. Nasty things 4 cylinder engines.