To LSD or not?

[cdde323]

Originally Posted by John Dempsey

I got mine for the track but i do notice a difference when pushing it aggressively through the mountains around here, and it should help a little with the bump issue, but just turn off traction control so your car doesnt cut power

Is that hitting the button once or holding it down? I've always been reluctant to mess with that due to this being my first RWD car and not wanting a turn around... never had to mess with traction control in my previous FWD cars, it was all tire and powering through it.

I always feel like the flashing yellow light is my car saying, "I just saved your life from that stupid shit you just did".

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by cdde323

Is that hitting the button once or holding it down? I've always been reluctant to mess with that due to this being my first RWD car and not wanting a turn around... never had to mess with traction control in my previous FWD cars, it was all tire and powering through it.

I always feel like the flashing yellow light is my car saying, "I just saved your life from that stupid shit you just did".

That's holding it down. You'll be fine. I've driven touring cars and Offroad cars professionally since i was 13 and shifter karts before that an I'm 18 now so I know how to drive. But honestly traction control screws me up. But you will be totally fine turning it off. The traction control is overly active in our cars anyway.

[int2str]

cdde,

First of all, you don't need an LSD.

Use that money to do some autocrosses & track days. There is a pretty good BMW CCA chapter in your area that puts on autocrosses. Join them and you'll learn a lot more about your car, that will help you a lot on the street.

Originally Posted by cdde323

Is that hitting the button once or holding it down? I've always been reluctant to mess with that due to this being my first RWD car and not wanting a turn around... never had to mess with traction control in my previous FWD cars, it was all tire and powering through it.

Don't turn the traction control off [yet]. Press the button once to go into DTC mode. That will help with most of the power cuts. Otherwise, see my next point:

I always feel like the flashing yellow light is my car saying, "I just saved your life from that stupid shit you just did".

For right now, I think that's true in a sense. The light flashes when you're loosing traction. Unfortunately this also happens on our car over bumps & holes where the car just gets bumped a bit too hard. The traction control doesn't differentiate very well between brief bumps and actual loss of traction.

Either way, it's a good reminder that you've just overcome traction of your tires. There are multiple ways to fix this. The easiest, most bang-for-the-buck and overall best way to fix this, is by adjusting your driving style. Being smooth, managing your throttle and picking your lines well are all techniques that can help you. They are best learned on a track/autocross.

There, you'll learn what it feels like to throw your car around with DSC completely off in a safe environment. Once you know what your car feels like with DSC off and have gotten your first spin[s] behind you, you will be in a much better position to decide when DSC is helping you and when it's holding you back.

To this date, when I go to the track, I still do a few warm up laps with traction control on. The light is a good reminder for me to be smoother.

[cdde323]

Originally Posted by int2str

cdde,

First of all, you don't need an LSD.

Appreciate the perspective... I may be reading into your comment wrong, but I'm not new to driving per-se, I've done a number of track days/autox and have been driving up on the mountains for 10+ years. Lines and smoothness aren't my biggest problems (not saying there isn't room for growth though), it's the roads I'm on, they are pure shit... simultaneously, they are super fun. You're in SD, think front-side Palomar... the cow grating or whatever those are... I have the 'drunk CalTrans guy laying asphalt' version of that, EVERYWHERE!

To your point though, this car is not what I'm experienced in... I come from the under-powered Honda (FWD) and Mazda (4WD) world where you can get away with murder as long as you have the tire for it. Understeer is fairly predictable and easy to correct for but I have an unhealthy fear of oversteer... hence me not touching any of the traction control options.

That's why I was leaning towards LSD, it does things that don't require me disabling other things that help prevent the car from turning around on me. Obviously, only to a certain extent, it doesn't cure stupid... but I don't know when it's being a nanny vs. actually preventing me from doing something stupid.

And again... to your point, all I really need to do is put the car on a track where I don't need to fear spinning. Spinning in the mountains can end really badly and I kind of rely on my GTX for track/autox events... I guess I'm just being lazy with the BMW.

Hopefully you've convinced me this is the correct course of action... but I kind of have problems with impulse purchasing.

[Lambobimmer]

So, I found a used pre Feb 2007 diff (bolted) for a very low price. I plan on purchasing a Quaife lsd and having someone install it in my local market. I should have less than $2,000 in the entire build including labor to install the Quaife and the shipping for the used diff that I purchased.

[blutattoo]

Originally Posted by cdde323

Appreciate the perspective... I may be reading into your comment wrong, but I'm not new to driving per-se, I've done a number of track days/autox and have been driving up on the mountains for 10+ years. Lines and smoothness aren't my biggest problems (not saying there isn't room for growth though), it's the roads I'm on, they are pure shit... simultaneously, they are super fun. You're in SD, think front-side Palomar... the cow grating or whatever those are... I have the 'drunk CalTrans guy laying asphalt' version of that, EVERYWHERE!

To your point though, this car is not what I'm experienced in... I come from the under-powered Honda (FWD) and Mazda (4WD) world where you can get away with murder as long as you have the tire for it. Understeer is fairly predictable and easy to correct for but I have an unhealthy fear of oversteer... hence me not touching any of the traction control options.

That's why I was leaning towards LSD, it does things that don't require me disabling other things that help prevent the car from turning around on me. Obviously, only to a certain extent, it doesn't cure stupid... but I don't know when it's being a nanny vs. actually preventing me from doing something stupid.

And again... to your point, all I really need to do is put the car on a track where I don't need to fear spinning. Spinning in the mountains can end really badly and I kind of rely on my GTX for track/autox events... I guess I'm just being lazy with the BMW.

Hopefully you've convinced me this is the correct course of action... but I kind of have problems with impulse purchasing.

I have an lsd and notice a difference on how my car handles with the traction control fully on while driving on the street when going through turns but in a straight line it still cuts power exactly the same. In DTC mode however it works great and on the track I almost exclusively use it(for me quicker lap times with it on then off). When I first got the lsd I thought it was a magic wand and first turn with traction control off I was looking out the side window in a heart beat so it won't keep you on the road by any stretch.

IMO it is great for shaving a couple of seconds off at the track and quicker launches at the drag strip, but for everyday aggressive driving the difference is minimal. Better tires is probably a much more well spent upgrade than anything else. I drive the coastal roads like you all the time and think an lsd is overkill if you don't track the car frequently.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by cdde323

Appreciate the perspective... I may be reading into your comment wrong, but I'm not new to driving per-se,

Didn't think you were
Did mention new to RWD though and traction control on...

I have an unhealthy fear of oversteer... hence me not touching any of the traction control options.

Press the button once (DTC on the dash). It'll cut power less over bumps, but still prevent spins. But more importantly, read on....

That's why I was leaning towards LSD, it does things that don't require me disabling other things that help prevent the car from turning around on me.

This is the part where you're wrong. It won't help you with any of that. At least not to the extend that you might be thinking.

And again... to your point, all I really need to do is put the car on a track where I don't need to fear spinning. Spinning in the mountains can end really badly and I kind of rely on my GTX for track/autox events... I guess I'm just being lazy with the BMW.

Exactly! I'd prefer autocross over track since the speeds are lower and tighter turns are much more likely to have you hang the back out. Understanding your car and understanding how well the eLSD works will do much much more for you than a mechanical LSD ever will.

Hopefully you've convinced me this is the correct course of action... but I kind of have problems with impulse purchasing.

Well, what are you waiting for?! Impulse buy your Oct. 21st autocross entry right now!!!
http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/calendar/ic...37/8/autocross

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by int2str

cdde,

First of all, you don't need an LSD.

Use that money to do some autocrosses & track days. There is a pretty good BMW CCA chapter in your area that puts on autocrosses. Join them and you'll learn a lot more about your car, that will help you a lot on the street.



Don't turn the traction control off [yet]. Press the button once to go into DTC mode. That will help with most of the power cuts. Otherwise, see my next point:



For right now, I think that's true in a sense. The light flashes when you're loosing traction. Unfortunately this also happens on our car over bumps & holes where the car just gets bumped a bit too hard. The traction control doesn't differentiate very well between brief bumps and actual loss of traction.

Either way, it's a good reminder that you've just overcome traction of your tires. There are multiple ways to fix this. The easiest, most bang-for-the-buck and overall best way to fix this, is by adjusting your driving style. Being smooth, managing your throttle and picking your lines well are all techniques that can help you. They are best learned on a track/autocross.

There, you'll learn what it feels like to throw your car around with DSC completely off in a safe environment. Once you know what your car feels like with DSC off and have gotten your first spin[s] behind you, you will be in a much better position to decide when DSC is helping you and when it's holding you back.

To this date, when I go to the track, I still do a few warm up laps with traction control on. The light is a good reminder for me to be smoother.

Im not sure you are so anti lsd. I mean i get your point but every single thread about someone getting an lsd you go off about how unnecessary it is and how they would be better off autocrossing their car. I get it....driver skill is important, but coming from someone who gets paid to drive a track prepped car, our car needs an lsd for any kind of competitive driving. With the power our car is capable of making the stock e-diff just doesnt cut it. Im sorry and i mean no disrespect with this post, i just dont see why you are so against it.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by int2str

Don't turn the traction control off [yet]. Press the button once to go into DTC mode. That will help with most of the power cuts. Otherwise, see my next point:

Not sure using DTC is a great way to learn how to drive a RWD car properly.
It's nearly messed me up a few times. It will let the back slip a little bit, you instinctively counter steer, the computer tries to correct at the same time and you have to counter steer your counter steer, which wouldn't have happened without the nannies

[1&done]

If I were to do it over again it would have been my first mod. I notice I difference on the st.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by John Dempsey

Im not sure you are so anti lsd.

I'm not anti LSD - I own one...

I get it....driver skill is important, but coming from someone who gets paid to drive a track prepped car, our car needs an lsd for any kind of competitive driving. With the power our car is capable of making the stock e-diff just doesnt cut it. Im sorry and i mean no disrespect with this post, i just dont see why you are so against it.

Honestly, I completely don't understand you. A driver with as much experience and skill as you have, I'm disappointed in the advice you give.

Look at this thread for example (not picking on you cdde, just providing example). We have a driver new to RWD that proclaims to drive at the limit of "unsafe" on public roads. Not comfortable enough to turn DTC off yet and annoyed at the bumpy roads around him.

How can you in good conscience suggest that he needs an LSD?
You say it's a must for "competitive driving" and you're probably right (wouldn't use the word must myself, but I digress). But most people here are not driving competitively - that's my point.

If you are not comfortable enough with a car to turn DSC off, you are NOT driving in a way that an LSD would help. And if you're driving at speed with DSC off on public roads, you better know what you're doing. Or better yet, take it to the track.

I don't think that if you're new to driving RWD or new to driving with DSC off, you are not in a position to judge the difference between eLSD and LSD.

Heck, most people on here who ask about LSDs don't even have sticky rubber on their car, which would help infinitely more.

An experienced driver of your level already knows all this.
So why do you keep on suggesting that people need an LSD right away?

The reason I harp so much on Autocrossing is because it's been an eye-opener to me. Nowhere else (in the US) can you experience your car in this manner, safely. I hadn't previously heard of it, but looking back it's one of the best things I've ever done.

As I've also instructed some people now, it's amazing how much of a difference you can make and how excited people get once they see what their cars can really do. I'm sure your experience is the same.

A driver like cdde here, I think is the perfect candidate for an autocross. He already knows how be quick and just needs to get comfortable with the new drivetrain. Hit the autocross, turn DSC off, pair up with a good instructor and I think he'll have an absolute blast and will learn to throw his car around in ways he'd never imagined.

When people ask for advice, I feel very strongly about giving them the best advice I can give. Suggesting an LSD to a driver who's not yet found the limits of the eLSD is just not what I'd call the best advice.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by Nugget

Not sure using DTC is a great way to learn how to drive a RWD car properly.
It's nearly messed me up a few times. It will let the back slip a little bit, you instinctively counter steer, the computer tries to correct at the same time and you have to counter steer your counter steer, which wouldn't have happened without the nannies

Good point. I actually kind of agree.

I'm very hesitant to suggest DSC off on public roads though. Especially for people not yet experience in having their car slide around. But yes, a closed track with the car's DSC off is the best way to learn!

[Phlonx]

Im a little surprised at what some of u guys r saying about this topic. If u own ur 1 because u love driving it, surely u would notice that u cant use the great balance, the immediate torque and the brilliant suspension geometry without disengaging stability AND traction control. If u think I'm wrong, no dont buy an LSD. The only way to really throw the car around a corner or get quick acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear is with an lsd! Did u ever do a U turn and try to hold the car sideways for a second? Its next to impossible with the stock lsd. Why do ///M cars come w LSDs? Because they are true driver's cars. I just feel like i cant really have fun or feel in control with traction and stability control off. Once its off the stock dif never seizes to surprise me (negatively) as i'm just trying to take a street corner quickly, its all jerky and unpredictable. My car is uncomfortble with the word 'countersteering' with the asock dif. Frankly, I'm disappointed BMW didnt put a lsd in the 135i, but they didnt for safety. If u drive ur 1 series and value 'safety' over performance, again, dont waste ur $ on an lsd.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by Phlonx

Did u ever do a U turn and try to hold the car sideways for a second? Its next to impossible with the stock lsd.

*sigh*

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by int2str

I'm not anti LSD - I own one...



Honestly, I completely don't understand you. A driver with as much experience and skill as you have, I'm disappointed in the advice you give.

Look at this thread for example (not picking on you cdde, just providing example). We have a driver new to RWD that proclaims to drive at the limit of "unsafe" on public roads. Not comfortable enough to turn DTC off yet and annoyed at the bumpy roads around him.

How can you in good conscience suggest that he needs an LSD?
You say it's a must for "competitive driving" and you're probably right (wouldn't use the word must myself, but I digress). But most people here are not driving competitively - that's my point.

If you are not comfortable enough with a car to turn DSC off, you are NOT driving in a way that an LSD would help. And if you're driving at speed with DSC off on public roads, you better know what you're doing. Or better yet, take it to the track.

I don't think that if you're new to driving RWD or new to driving with DSC off, you are not in a position to judge the difference between eLSD and LSD.

Heck, most people on here who ask about LSDs don't even have sticky rubber on their car, which would help infinitely more.

An experienced driver of your level already knows all this.
So why do you keep on suggesting that people need an LSD right away?

The reason I harp so much on Autocrossing is because it's been an eye-opener to me. Nowhere else (in the US) can you experience your car in this manner, safely. I hadn't previously heard of it, but looking back it's one of the best things I've ever done.

As I've also instructed some people now, it's amazing how much of a difference you can make and how excited people get once they see what their cars can really do. I'm sure your experience is the same.

A driver like cdde here, I think is the perfect candidate for an autocross. He already knows how be quick and just needs to get comfortable with the new drivetrain. Hit the autocross, turn DSC off, pair up with a good instructor and I think he'll have an absolute blast and will learn to throw his car around in ways he'd never imagined.

When people ask for advice, I feel very strongly about giving them the best advice I can give. Suggesting an LSD to a driver who's not yet found the limits of the eLSD is just not what I'd call the best advice.

in very rare form, i agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by John Dempsey

That's holding it down. You'll be fine. I've driven touring cars and Offroad cars professionally since i was 13 and shifter karts before that an I'm 18 now so I know how to drive. But honestly traction control screws me up. But you will be totally fine turning it off. The traction control is overly active in our cars anyway.

i find it... interesting... that someone would be a paid professional at the ripe young age of 13... not even doogie logano was being paid at that age.

[Colt]

Originally Posted by int2str

Good point. I actually kind of agree.

I'm very hesitant to suggest DSC off on public roads though. Especially for people not yet experience in having their car slide around. But yes, a closed track with the car's DSC off is the best way to learn!

Yea seriously.....I don't touch the traction control; don't plan on it. I learned my lesson years ago in a less expensive vehicle. You mature and learn....I guess it's better to learn earlier into driving instead of later. DSC off is not a good idea on a road that isn't a track, or abandoned strip; cars are unpredictable

[cdde323]

I really appreciate all the input and info on this thread... from both sides of the fence.

From what I've gathered, LSD is not going to solve the problem I'm having at this particular time, power cutting mid corner. Whether I choose to go the autox route or just start playing around with DTC on the roads around my place; I do see the need to explore what the eLSD is capable of before I look at aftermarket parts.

I believe I was incorrectly making the connection that the eLSD feature was the same feature that was cutting my power, making me think a mechanical LSD would fix the problem. Now I believe I'm seeing two features, power cutting (traction control) and rear braking (the fake LSD)...

Now, just to confirm what I've read in this thread and others...

Normal/"DSC on" (no buttons pressed) = strong traction control and eLSD
DTC (press once) = mild traction control and eLSD
"DSC off" (press and hold) = eLSD only

If yes, I feel like I would be very comfortable stretching into "DTC" land.

Thanks!

[Eyeman]

Hmm Cdde, I don't see why an LSD wouldn't practically fix your problem.

As for others, I think many 1addicts overestimate what most modded N54 owners are doing with their cars. To some degree I modded my car so I can seriously shock some jerk/bad driver that is aggravating me. I love the whole sleeper thing of our cars. In perfect conditions with great tires this is not much of a problem without an LSD. When the weather cools down and tires lose traction, when the road is wet or just has some lose debris, our cars spin the rear tires terribly. When this happens traction control kicks in aggressively and sometimes your car won't do what it should do. I've set barely moving from a redlight as I spun tires and traction control cut all my power and I got my doors blown off a MiniCooperS and a Boxster. My LSD fixed this.

As far as these 135 track drivers go, I have tons of respect for them. For me, my 135 has way too much power for it's traction and handling, even with an LSD. It would be fun to really get to let it loose on the track, but I'd kill myself.

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

in very rare form, i agree with all of this.

i find it... interesting... that someone would be a paid professional at the ripe young age of 13... not even doogie logano was being paid at that age.

I got I to desert racing when I was 6 racing a trophy cart. Then move to a mod cart and then got picked up by Kawasaki and custom Offroad design and put in the pro sr1 utv class. I'm sorry that's hard for you to grasp.

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by int2str

I'm not anti LSD - I own one...

Honestly, I completely don't understand you. A driver with as much experience and skill as you have, I'm disappointed in the advice you give.

Look at this thread for example (not picking on you cdde, just providing example). We have a driver new to RWD that proclaims to drive at the limit of "unsafe" on public roads. Not comfortable enough to turn DTC off yet and annoyed at the bumpy roads around him.

How can you in good conscience suggest that he needs an LSD?
You say it's a must for "competitive driving" and you're probably right (wouldn't use the word must myself, but I digress). But most people here are not driving competitively - that's my point.

If you are not comfortable enough with a car to turn DSC off, you are NOT driving in a way that an LSD would help. And if you're driving at speed with DSC off on public roads, you better know what you're doing. Or better yet, take it to the track.

I don't think that if you're new to driving RWD or new to driving with DSC off, you are not in a position to judge the difference between eLSD and LSD.

Heck, most people on here who ask about LSDs don't even have sticky rubber on their car, which would help infinitely more.

An experienced driver of your level already knows all this.
So why do you keep on suggesting that people need an LSD right away?

The reason I harp so much on Autocrossing is because it's been an eye-opener to me. Nowhere else (in the US) can you experience your car in this manner, safely. I hadn't previously heard of it, but looking back it's one of the best things I've ever done.

As I've also instructed some people now, it's amazing how much of a difference you can make and how excited people get once they see what their cars can really do. I'm sure your experience is the same.

A driver like cdde here, I think is the perfect candidate for an autocross. He already knows how be quick and just needs to get comfortable with the new drivetrain. Hit the autocross, turn DSC off, pair up with a good instructor and I think he'll have an absolute blast and will learn to throw his car around in ways he'd never imagined.

When people ask for advice, I feel very strongly about giving them the best advice I can give. Suggesting an LSD to a driver who's not yet found the limits of the eLSD is just not what I'd call the best advice.

I actually agree with what you are saying. And you make a lot of good points. However the lack of an LSD is Definately a weakness. And it is hard at times without one. I'm not sure how hard he is or isn't driving.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by cdde323

I believe I was incorrectly making the connection that the eLSD feature was the same feature that was cutting my power, making me think a mechanical LSD would fix the problem.

Exactly.

Normal/"DSC on" (no buttons pressed) = strong traction control and eLSD
DTC (press once) = mild traction control and eLSD
"DSC off" (press and hold) = eLSD only

Yes.

In BMW terms:
DSC mode (normal) = traction control and stability control (prevents spins etc.)
DTC mode (one press) = traction control off/reduced and stability control
DSC off = traction control off, stability control off (spin away )

eLSD can't be turned off.

[Indo Rider]

I turn traction control completely off every time i start the car before i ever start rolling. Zero fun with it on. DTC when its raining really hard. I like to get loose, but it seems so unpredictable the e-lsd. Seems in my old 2000 v8 mustang i could control my drift no problem... Is an lsd right for me, I mean, I'll notice a big difference on the street right if i typically drive like a maniac?