2011 BMW M1 vs 2011 Mustang GT

[Spartikus]

Okay, lets inject some more reality into this thread. The 2011 Mustang is not 19lbs heavier than the 2011. It will be at least 100lbs heavier. Scott said the M1 comes in at 1500kg. Isnt that 3300lb? Thats near 150lb less than what most rags weight the 1er at. No?

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Russo

even if the m1 could keep up with the new GT, the price alone would make it unreasonable to compare...

Nah, who cares about price?
I don't know why there are so many people who are so fixated on only comparing cars that are within a few grand of each other.....that's rubbish.
There are plenty of people who can afford $60k cars, but will look at everything from $25-60k cars as long as it fits the objectives they are looking for in a car.

I'm one of them, I could afford the M1 price, but if looking for a fun pure performance car, I'd be nuts to discount the 2011 Mustang GT just because it costs $10-15k less.

I know very well off people driving Prius's.
They could of afford the most expensive Hybrid on the market, but choose one of the least expensive.
I know very well off people who could afford Porsche 911 Turbo, but bought the Cayman S instead. You don't think they compared and test drove both?

I also know people who could comfortably only afford a $25k car, but bought $35k car because its what they wanted, no matter how much of a burden it's putting on their finances.

The M1 and 2011 MGT will have similar performance, it's perfectly natural and acceptable to compare them.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Okay, lets inject some more reality into this thread. The 2011 Mustang is not 19lbs heavier than the 2011. It will be at least 100lbs heavier. Scott said the M1 comes in at 1500kg. Isnt that 3300lb? Thats near 150lb less than what most rags weight the 1er at. No?

It really doesn't matter. The Mustang will be under 3600lbs, and the M1 will be well over 3200, so it's certainly not going to be anywhere close to 400lbs lighter than the Mustang, which was what he stated.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Okay, lets inject some more reality into this thread. The 2011 Mustang is not 19lbs heavier than the 2011. It will be at least 100lbs heavier. Scott said the M1 comes in at 1500kg. Isnt that 3300lb? Thats near 150lb less than what most rags weight the 1er at. No?

Well in reality, I don't think anybody here knows for a fact the final weights of either.
I think both the 2011 MGT and the 2011 M1 will be within 50-100 lbs of their 2010 counterparts (MGT and 135i), but I'm like everyone else is purely guessing.

I'm not sure where that dude got the 19 lbs heavier figure for the 2011 MGT, but I'd love to know.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

It really doesn't matter. The Mustang will be under 3600lbs, and the M1 will be well over 3200, so it's certainly not going to be anywhere close to 400lbs lighter than the Mustang, which was what he stated.

I agree.
I would find it hard to believe that they would be able to pull 200 lbs off the weight of the 135i for the M1. It may be hard to pull 100 lbs off.
And I think it would be hard to believe that the 2011 MGT will add 200 lbs to the weight, it may be hard to add 100 lbs.
As it's essentially the same car as the 2010 model but with a new engine (and probably some other upgraded parts), so I'd think it would be within 100 lbs of the 2010 weight and possibly within 50 lbs.

[bmwzone]

I'll be picking up my black GT 5.0 stick in March hopefully should compliment my 135i nicely. The Stang should be faster out if the box my goal is to get the 135i quicker using a planned Dinan modding program. It's gonna be a fun summer!

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

I'll be picking up my black GT 5.0 stick in March hopefully should compliment my 135i nicely. The Stang should be faster out if the box my goal is to get the 135i quicker using a planned Dinan modding program. It's gonna be a fun summer!

Sweet.
But go for the JB3 instead of the Dinan.
It's so easy and quick to put on and remove, it's not even funny.
If that's all you are going to do to the 135i, you don't need to worry about warranty issues. You can take the JB3 off in 20 minutes or so even if you are stranded on the side of the road somewhere, with just 2-3 tools you can keep in your trunk.

You'll have a great combo of cars in your garage.
The MGT is going to be fast for sure, with the JB3 on your 135i it will be very similiar in performance I'm sure.
JB3 only 135/335's seem to do high 12's @ 113ish (a bit better if you are in a 93 Octane state).

The Mustang GT will be something else entirely when a supercharger is developed for it.
I'm guessing by summer 2012 at latest. That should give it 550 hp, and hopefully be in the $6-8k range. Look out!

[LeoHammer]

I REALLY hope that the new one has better steering feel than my '08 GT... being fast is not as fun when it doesn't feel like shit.

[trahsub]

Don't sleep on Ford! They are the leaving GM and Chrysler (Fiat) in the dust. I really hope Ford continues to improve their product like as they have been doing. Imagine American's buying American in large numbers again!

[bluejaypanther]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Don't sleep on Ford! They are the leaving GM and Chrysler (Fiat) in the dust. I really hope Ford continues to improve their product like as they have been doing. Imagine American's buying American in large numbers again!

It won't be soon that I buy a new car (just got one, and I don't go through cars very quickly), but I too am impressed by Ford. I feel I owe it to myself to see what they're offering next time around.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I'm one of them, I could afford the M1 price, but if looking for a fun pure performance car, I'd be nuts to discount the 2011 Mustang GT just because it costs $10-15k less.

From that perspective neither car will be on my list. I'd go straight for a CaymanS, Z06Vette, or Elise/Exige. Why settle for run of mill when there are best of breed established? Either of these two cars are a "pure" performance car. I just can't entertain on this topic because the two cars are so far out, too many unknowns.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Your rambling has become downright comical. The ONLY time you use low end torque is when you're launching in first gear, and even then it's not a huge factor because you're not doing it from idle. If you're running the car hard you'll never be below 3k RPM (unless you don't know what you're doing and select the wrong gear), and it's not like a 5.0L V8 has EVER been lacking on low end torque anyway. Power in the upper RPM band has MUCH more influence than having peak torque at 1500RPMs and then having it fall off where you spend most of your time while you're racing.


The 135i is over 3400lbs. It's already been stated that the M1 will be 3300-3400lbs, and the Mustang weighs a little over 3500lbs. It's funny that someone with the username "Numbers" doesn't seem to be able to operate them. That would be a difference of 250lbs AT MOST. You're pulling that 1400kg number straight out of your ass, and you don't even know how much a 135i weighs to start with !

Just give it a rest. It's painfully obvious that you're not capable of offering an informed, unbiased opinion on the matter, and your posts border on outright lies.

Bro, listen...

Low end torque means exactly that.. a typical driver will use "low-end" torque, 100x more than, if they were to ever touch peak torque. Which ironically, with a NA engine, is a single point within the powerband..

Think on that for a while and let that sink in.


Peak torque means nothing, it's an arbitrary number. Whats most available to the driver, is all that matters. So, don't be so concerned about PEAK torque figures, but WHERE... within the powerband does this torque take place and how it plots. Uno? mentally imagine those deltas.. see the "usable torque"? So, even without exact dynos, we know enough to apply basic engineering principles to understand a car's characteristics.

There is simply no rebuttal to the point I was making jeremy. No argument to be had.. the BMW will have more usable torque, it's a fact! & that was my only point.



Additionally, you can blind yourself with only PEAK numbers, if you dismiss the principles behind them. Oddly, I've notice this pattern in a good many of your posts. You keep bickering about exactly HOW MUCH! (a difference in weight), the Mustang weighs over then 135/M1...? But not the fact that you've already conceded that the M1 is going to be lighter..! Yet, dismiss it, because someone suggest it might be lighter than you beleive..? troll..?

The relevant fact here, in this discussion, is that the new M1 will be lighter than the Mustang 5.0... I say closer to 400lbs lighter, you say 250lbs... right?

BMW = win (on the track) ..Oh, first gear? (how embarrassing for you)




Lastly , ever hear of the word "funner" ..?

Why some journalist talk about supercars or exotics, but always reminisce about the "classics" like the E30 M3 & older Porsche's, etc. They knew (felt?) even though the Supercar had better spec sheet, it didn't matter to them.

The Supercar didn't = the sum of all it's parts.

//M machines never have that^ effect. They are so beautifully crafted as a whole, that keeping them stock is often the best choice. That the over-all experience and BALANCE is key... please don't ever forget that.

All specs matter when buying or comparing cars... even MPG. Don't forget that either.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

I'll be picking up my black GT 5.0 stick in March hopefully should compliment my 135i nicely. The Stang should be faster out if the box my goal is to get the 135i quicker using a planned Dinan modding program. It's gonna be a fun summer!

I think that a secondary goal should be making the stang even faster with a Roush Stage 3 kit.

[ChrisK]

I don't care what anyone says or drives. Ford has come a long way.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I don't care what anyone says or drives. Ford has come a long way.

+1.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by BForbes

+1.

Beautiful^

I wish they'd bring back the upscale Lincoln Merkur XR4ti ...

[bmwzone]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Beautiful^

I wish they'd bring back the upscale Lincoln Merkur XR4ti ...

The Merkur? LOL. Now that was a "fun" car. My buddy couldn't do a 1-2 power shift without grinding the gears got sooooo frustrated since I had no issues at all doing the 1-2 power shift at full throttle. Another example of driver over car. This GT 5.0 should be friggen awesome around town burning rubber. 412hp trumps the 390hp in the last Cobra which was bad arse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlR8hbpkHkw&feature=youtube_gdata

[BForbes]

A very strong source said Ford left another "easily attainable" 40hp on the table. All it would take is a cheap tune and 93 octane. We all didn't believe the person that made the claim until he posted a picture of the 5.0 engine bay from his cell phone. There were no candid shots of that cars motor at that point. Press pics indeed confirmed it to be just that. The pics were yanked shortly after he posted them. Goes to show that somebody is always watching.

Boy do I feel like a noob. I had to look up what a Merkur was.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by BForbes

A very strong source said Ford left another "easily attainable" 40hp on the table. All it would take is a cheap tune and 93 octane. We all didn't believe the person that made the claim until he posted a picture of the 5.0 engine bay from his cell phone. There were no candid shots of that cars motor at that point. Press pics indeed confirmed it to be just that. The pics were yanked shortly after he posted them. Goes to show that somebody is always watching.

Boy do I feel like a noob. I had to look up what a Merkur was.

I remember that post. Im so happy that I saw that pic before it was pulled.

And dont fell so bad. I had to look it up aswell.

[JimD]

I don't think you can ever justify BMWs, or Mercedes, or Jaquars, or Infinities or Lexuxes or any other premium brand (and I don't want some of these, I just tried to be inclusive) based upon a hard bang-for-the-buck. There is always a VW, Ford, Chevy, Kia, or Hyundai that will perform similar that is significantly cheaper.

The issue for me is they feel cheaper too. It took me a couple months to notice the subtle things BMW does that feel "nice". Like last night when I approached my 1 in the parking lot after choir practice, I hit the button and the exterior lights and interior lights come on. On my Suzuki SUV, only the interior would come on. When I got inside, the exterior went mainly or totally off (not sure) and the interior light increased. And then it faded back out when I started the car. The hole in the gas cap hinge for you to park the gas cap is another subtle little "nice" touch for me. The sum of all these "nice" things is what you don't get when you go the "bang-for-the-buck" route. You might get a faster car at a lower price but you will not have the same experience. I don't think the "nice" features are really worth the price difference but I want them and can afford them so I bought them.

I am fortunate enough to be able to pay cash for nearly any car I want. I didn't put any huge dent in my available funds when I paid cash for my 128 vert. The question for me is just how much do I want to spend on transportation. I could have purchased a M3 vert, for instance, in one direction or a mustang vert in the other (I really wanted the vert part). I decided the 128 was "just right" and am quite happy with that decision. I also don't mind at all that others add up similar factors and go a different way.

Jim

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by BForbes

A very strong source said Ford left another "easily attainable" 40hp on the table. All it would take is a cheap tune and 93 octane. We all didn't believe the person that made the claim until he posted a picture of the 5.0 engine bay from his cell phone. There were no candid shots of that cars motor at that point. Press pics indeed confirmed it to be just that. The pics were yanked shortly after he posted them. Goes to show that somebody is always watching.

Boy do I feel like a noob. I had to look up what a Merkur was.

Oh, I read an article from a head Ford engineer who said there is some power to be had by aftermarket intake (not a lot though) and aftermarket exhaust (again not a lot though).
He said they could of put those on the car stock and made (what seemed like he was hinting of 4-5 hp from the intake and a bit more than that from the exhaust) but the increased noise levels of the higher flowing intake and exhaust were deemed too loud for a stock car.

I don't remember of hand if the 5.0 is tuned for 91 Octane or 87 like the current GT, but I'm sure higher octane and a tune to go with it will yield a bit more as well.

Unfortunately, the gains of the intake and exhaust probably aren't enough to justify cost, but the exhaust might be worth it if people are into louder/meaner sounds.

It's the supercharger that will undoubtedly come for the engine that will be the big seller.
Hell Ford's already put on on the car themselves for the GT350.
Of course they gave it only enough boost to make 500 hp (can't have more power than the GT500 you know )
And clearly they left more on the table, but did the 500 hp to keep it below the GT500 and for warranty reasons.

I'm pretty sure 550+ hp with a couple more psi boost would be easily attainable, and shouldn't cost an arm and a leg to do either.

You're not a noob for having to look up Merkur, just means you weren't driving cars (or a car nut) in the late 80's to early 90's yet that's all.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Oh, I read an article from a head Ford engineer who said there is some power to be had by aftermarket intake (not a lot though) and aftermarket exhaust (again not a lot though).
He said they could of put those on the car stock and made (what seemed like he was hinting of 4-5 hp from the intake and a bit more than that from the exhaust) but the increased noise levels of the higher flowing intake and exhaust were deemed too loud for a stock car.

I don't remember of hand if the 5.0 is tuned for 91 Octane or 87 like the current GT, but I'm sure higher octane and a tune to go with it will yield a bit more as well.

Unfortunately, the gains of the intake and exhaust probably aren't enough to justify cost, but the exhaust might be worth it if people are into louder/meaner sounds.

It's the supercharger that will undoubtedly come for the engine that will be the big seller.
Hell Ford's already put on on the car themselves for the GT350.
Of course they gave it only enough boost to make 500 hp (can't have more power than the GT500 you know )
And clearly they left more on the table, but did the 500 hp to keep it below the GT500 and for warranty reasons.

I'm pretty sure 550+ hp with a couple more psi boost would be easily attainable, and shouldn't cost an arm and a leg to do either.

You're not a noob for having to look up Merkur, just means you weren't driving cars (or a car nut) in the late 80's to early 90's yet that's all.

You called it. I was born in the 80's. I remember reading the car will only produce around 8hp less on 87 octane. I'm guessing it was tuned for 91. I think its great too that the oil change intervals have been bumped to 10,000miles. That's approaching the suggested intervals of the Europeans. Now, I wouldnt wait that long with my Mustang GT if I owned one. These cars already sound great stock. I'm not sure if it would be necessary to tinker with the exhaust.

---------

Brokenvert,

That was a pretty sweet moment seeing the pic! That fella sure is knowledgeable.