BMW M1 spotted during cold weather testing (and official teaser images)

[larryn]

Originally Posted by adc

I'm not one of them - if this thing really fulfills its many promises, I'll trade my M3 in for one in a heartbeat. Don't really care about the power numbers, looks etc. However, there cannot be any excuses made for handling.

I've been waiting a long time for an M car like this, I'm so excited by the possibilities of this car - and the possibility of another Euro Delivery - I just hope it will not be disappointing.


Another point when discussing torque is to know what type of transmission it will have. If it's based on the current 135i 6sp, then it cannot handle more than 322 ft-lbs I believe. The DCT can go up to 369 if not mistaken (same as the overboost feature in the 335is).

Or they could base it off some other manual tranny - for example on the E39/E60 6sp, which is rated higher.


(Mine would have to be a 6sp manual).

TOTALLY agree about the handling requirement. FWIW, the 135i with the M3 tension and control arms, drives like a different car... much more positive steering feel. I very much assume that those pieces will be in the M1, along with M specific damping, valved specifically for the e82 platform. I would not be surprised to see the existing M3 sways in it as well, as we know they are direct fit. I would expect tower bracing though.

The N55 is getting a different Getrag 6sp unit, I thought. I'm also hoping they do something other than the DCT too. That would be a shame, if not.

[adc]

Originally Posted by larryn

I very much assume that those pieces will be in the M1, along with M specific damping, valved specifically for the e82 platform.

I'd be surprised if it were otherwise. Plus, the handling/bushings will be optimized for non-runflats, which can only be a good thing.

And the icing on the cake would be the optional availability of EDC - it's the best option on the M3, bar none.

The N55 is getting a different Getrag 6sp unit, I thought.

That would make sense. Besides which, lots of future turbo models will produce more than 322 ft-lbs torque, so it makes sense to develop/upgrade the manual transmissions...

We'll see shortly.

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by adc

That would make sense. Besides which, lots of future turbo models will produce more than 322 ft-lbs torque, so it makes sense to develop/upgrade the manual transmissions...

We'll see shortly.

Yup. One of the releases I read on the ///M1 (maybe on Bimmerfile??) stated that a new 6MT was being developed, in addition to the DCT (DKG) offering.

Bueno! My left foot gets bored easily and has asked me to promise it I would not buy another double clutch gearbox equipped car.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by larryn

True. Unless you think that the M3 is going to be poised or be looked at as more of a super GT car, the M1 and M3 have enormous overlap and are direct competitors to each other. BMW has to introduce some compromise to the M1, unless they want to cannibalize the M3 sales.

Maybe this is harder for me to rationalize, as I do many driving events, and think of the M3 and M1 in those terms....

I agree, there will be some overlap, but also a LOT of separate qualities that will affect sales.
***edit: to be more clear the list below are individual qualities but taken in collectively that will affect which car a potential buyer will get.***
Anyone who can easily afford a $60-70k M3 will clearly go for it instead of the M1
Anyone who prefers high revving NA engine will go for the M3
Anyone who prefers a V8 will go for the M3
Anyone who likes the looks of the e92 better than the 1 series, will be more swayed to get an M3.
There will be plenty who will think the 1 series is a "girls" car, even in M guise.
Those who want just a bit more room than the 1 series offers will prefer the M3.

Now, on the otherhand, those with $50-55k budget limits will clearly get an M1
Those who like FI better than high revving NA will go for M1
Those who like the idea of a smaller, lighter car for the nimble FEEL (even though it may not actually handle better, and maybe worse) will get an M1
Those who want to ECU tune to get bigger power gains for cheap will prefer the M1
Those who don't care that for many, the e92 is better looking than the e82, may get the M1
Those who want to be "one of the first" to have a new car, will jump in and get the M1.

So clearly there will be some overlap, but also plenty of separation.
The interesting part is going to be for 2013(?) when the M3 goes to a turbocharged 6 cylinder that will make things interesting. But with it will come an all new F30 chassis, so no matter how close the M1 will get to the current M3 in performance, in 2-3 years, the M3 will take it to the next level again anyway.
I have said for a year now, well before BMW even released the official info that the M3 was going to be a FI 6 next, the upcoming M3 will probably be a 3.3 liter TT V6 (essentially the current 4.4 liter V8 with 2 cylinders chopped off).
It will probably have 410-420 hp if they keep it at 3.3 liters, but if bored or stroked out a bit to say 3.4 liters, power could raise to 430 hp.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I agree, there will be some overlap, but also a LOT of separate qualities that will affect sales.
Anyone who can easily afford a $60-70k M3 will clearly go for it instead of the M1
.

If that were true I'd be driving one right now, and I'm willing to bet it's true of a lot of other 135i owners on this forum. The M3 has just gotten too large and heavy for a lot of people. 3700lbs + is just too much for a car with serious sporting intentions IMO. No matter how good it is (and it is good) it's just not the same as a small, fast, light vehicle.

On top of that, the M3's styling has really gone too far IMO. They used to be subtle, and classy looking, and now they scream "look at me! I'm an M3!" with the large vents, and hood buldge and garish looking bumpers.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I agree, there will be some overlap, but also a LOT of separate qualities that will affect sales.
Anyone who can easily afford a $60-70k M3 will clearly go for it instead of the M1
Anyone who prefers high revving NA engine will go for the M3
Anyone who prefers a V8 will go for the M3
Anyone who likes the looks of the e92 better than the 1 series, will be more swayed to get an M3.
There will be plenty who will think the 1 series is a "girls" car, even in M guise.
Those who want just a bit more room than the 1 series offers will prefer the M3.

Now, on the otherhand, those with $50-55k budget limits will clearly get an M1
Those who like FI better than high revving NA will go for M1
Those who like the idea of a smaller, lighter car for the nimble FEEL (even though it may not actually handle better, and maybe worse) will get an M1
Those who want to ECU tune to get bigger power gains for cheap will prefer the M1
Those who don't care that for most, the e92 is better looking than the e82, may get the M1
Those who want to be "one of the first" to have a new car, will jump in and get the M1.

So clearly there will be some overlap, but also plenty of separation.
The interesting part is going to be for 2013(?) when the M3 goes to a turbocharged 6 cylinder that will make things interesting. But with it will come an all new F30 chassis, so no matter how close the M1 will get to the current M3 in performance, in 2-3 years, the M3 will take it to the next level again anyway.
I have said for a year now, well before BMW even released the official info that the M3 was going to be a FI 6 next, the upcoming M3 will probably be a 3.3 liter TT V6 (essentially the current 4.4 liter V8 with 2 cylinders chopped off).
It will probably have 410-420 hp if they keep it at 3.3 liters, but if bored or stroked out a bit to say 3.4 liters, power could raise to 430 hp.

I don't agree with any of your reasons, but respect them for your reasons. I can easily afford an M3 yet drive a 135i. I traded in my e90 for it, and did not do so because of pricing. Calling the M1 (or 1 series in general) a girls cars is inflammatory, and makes me wonder about the intent. I've heard that regarding the cabrio (as cabrios often are thought of in that manner), but not the coupe.

The F20 M1 will be announced around the same timeframe as the F30 M3. That ought to be an interesting comparo! Both with turbos (if your speculation has any weight) makes the gap all that much smaller. It becomes "who wants the larger and heavier M car versus the smaller and highly likely more nimble. Seems very similar to my reasons for getting the 135i versus the 335i.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

If that were true I'd be driving one right now, and I'm willing to bet it's true of a lot of other 135i owners on this forum. The M3 has just gotten too large and heavy for a lot of people. 3700lbs + is just too much for a car with serious sporting intentions IMO. No matter how good it is (and it is good) it's just not the same as a small, fast, light vehicle.

On top of that, the M3's styling has really gone too far IMO. They used to be subtle, and classy looking, and now they scream "look at me! I'm an M3!" with the large vents, and hood buldge and garish looking bumpers.

well, I could of also afforded an M3, but had 2 335i's instead.
Then when it came time to replace my 335i a few months ago, i considered an M3 again.
My point of anyone able to afford the two would go for the M1 was just that one point. Clearly there are other factors (style, engine, size, etc.)
But again, the point was, IF someone who can afford and M3 won't choose the M1 if all there other aspects are satisfied by the M3 as much or more as they are with the M1.

Yeah, I agree, 3700 lbs is getting heavy for sure.
But the M3 is a light weight in comparison to most other smaller to midsize V8 powered cars.

I don't think the M3's styling is garish at all.
Actually I think it's as subtle as it's ever been.
I remember when the first M3 came out in the 80's.
It had a larger rear wing that stuck up several inches off the trunk deck. Kind of like 1/2 way between a lip spoiler and an EVO type spoiler that raises a foot off the trunk lid.
The original also had side spoilers and flares, etc.
It was kind of "ricey"
With the e46 it was toned down a great deal, where the differences were subtle and tasteful.
That was extended to the e9x version as well.

Keep in mind, you don't want to pull off an original MazdaSpeed 3 where it was hard to tell the difference between the Speed 3 and regular 3s as the car was driving by.
You are paying $15k+ more for the car, you want it distinguishable from the rest of the line.
I think the e92 M3 looks bad@ss personally.
And the rendering of the M1 looks to fall in line with that and would greatly help the "scared cat eyes" front and overall odd proportions of the regular 1 series.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by larryn

I don't agree with any of your reasons, but respect them for your reasons. I can easily afford an M3 yet drive a 135i. I traded in my e90 for it, and did not do so because of pricing. Calling the M1 (or 1 series in general) a girls cars is inflammatory, and makes me wonder about the intent. I've heard that regarding the cabrio (as cabrios often are thought of in that manner), but not the coupe.

The F20 M1 will be announced around the same timeframe as the F30 M3. That ought to be an interesting comparo! Both with turbos (if your speculation has any weight) makes the gap all that much smaller. It becomes "who wants the larger and heavier M car versus the smaller and highly likely more nimble. Seems very similar to my reasons for getting the 135i versus the 335i.

I did not call the 1 series a "girls" car I said there are plenty who will think that, and there are plenty who do.
Entry level luxury cars often are heavily purchased by women.
As they want the "allure" and "glamour" and "prestige" of buying a luxury brand but often don't go for the higher end and more expensive models.
A vast majority of women out there would prefer to have a $33k BMW 1 series than a $45k car from a manufacturer that's not a "luxury" or "prestige" brand, even though the 1 series is a less expensive car.

Had I not come from having two 335i's and I liked the looks of the 135i better than I do, I'd of gotten a 135i too.
But it's odd proportions, tall and skinny, (though attractive in women, look a bit odd in a performance car) I'd of gotten the 135i for sure.
The M1 looks to remedy the odd proportions of the 135i by widening the car and probably lowering it a bit too.
Not to mention makes it look more muscular.

As for your last point, I couldn't agree more. With the F30 M3 and F20 M1 both being force inducted, the gap surely will be smaller between the two.
It will be, like you said, more of a case of size and overall power/tuning potential that will drive a lot of the sales.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I did not call the 1 series a "girls" car I said there are plenty who will think that, and there are plenty who do.
Entry level luxury cars often are heavily purchased by women.
As they want the "allure" and "glamour" and "prestige" of buying a luxury brand but often don't go for the higher end and more expensive models.
A vast majority of women out there would prefer to have a $33k BMW 1 series than a $45k car from a manufacturer that's not a "luxury" or "prestige" brand, even though the 1 series is a less expensive car.

Had I not come from having two 335i's and I liked the looks of the 135i better than I do, I'd of gotten a 135i too.
But it's odd proportions, tall and skinny, (though attractive in women, look a bit odd in a performance car) I'd of gotten the 135i for sure.
The M1 looks to remedy the odd proportions of the 135i by widening the car and probably lowering it a bit too.
Not to mention makes it look more muscular.

As for your last point, I couldn't agree more. With the F30 M3 and F20 M1 both being force inducted, the gap surely will be smaller between the two.
It will be, like you said, more of a case of size and overall power/tuning potential that will drive a lot of the sales.

To each his/her own. I do like the 1ers looks slightly better than the 3er, though I do think each are nice looking.. the e92 3er more sleek and elegant, and the e82 1er more bulldog aggressive, which I find kind of menacing.

I can find "plenty of people" to take any point. Just a suggestion.. speak your own opinions and leave others opinions out of it, unless you are wanting to be argumentative. You might as well be coming to my house, saying yo mamma jokes, and explaining you don't particularly feel that way, just repeating what others said.

[ChrisK]

You can call the 1er a girls car - I don't care.

... just be careful when my Alpine White 350hp M1 Girly Car tears you a new one!

[larryn]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

You can call the 1er a girls car - I don't care.

... just be careful when my Alpine White 350hp M1 Girly Car tears you a new one!

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by larryn

To each his/her own. I do like the 1ers looks slightly better than the 3er, though I do think each are nice looking.. the e92 3er more sleek and elegant, and the e82 1er more bulldog aggressive, which I find kind of menacing.

I can find "plenty of people" to take any point. Just a suggestion.. speak your own opinions and leave others opinions out of it, unless you are wanting to be argumentative. You might as well be coming to my house, saying yo mamma jokes, and explaining you don't particularly feel that way, just repeating what others said.

I think you are taking that point a bit too personally.
I was making the point from a sales perspective.
It's not even in the same realm as telling "yo momma" jokes at a bar, much less at somebody else's house.

Somebody could of come to my house and told me my e92 335i was the ugliest car they've ever seen AND it's a girls car to boot, I wouldn't flinch a bit, as that's their view, as wrong as they would be. But if they came into my house and started telling me offensive "yo momma" jokes and meant it, they'd be leaving the house on their own, or via means of force quite quickly.

Other people opinions, perspectives are just as valid, and stating other peoples opinions as they have been made is nothing out of the ordinary in any form of communication, so I'm not sure why you'd feel it best not to state that.
No different than saying, "my brother loves that xxxxx".

It's not argumentative, it's just a fact of personal taste by others, whether it good or bad in your view, that's just your (and yet another) opinion.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Driver72

My point of anyone able to afford the two would go for the M1 was just that one point. Clearly there are other factors (style, engine, size, etc.)
But again, the point was, IF someone who can afford and M3 won't choose the M1 if all there other aspects are satisfied by the M3 as much or more as they are with the M1.
\.

That's not what you said at all. You said that if a person could afford the M3, they would clearly choose it over the M1, and that is simply untrue.

All aspects aren't satisfied. The M3 is and will always be a larger, heavier car.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That's not what you said at all. You said that if a person could afford the M3, they would clearly choose it over the M1, and that is simply untrue.

All aspects aren't satisfied. The M3 is and will always be a larger, heavier car.

No you took my meanings wrong.
I was listing a list of individual qualities of each car that would collectively affect which car someone would buy.
That list was not qualities that would be the only decision of which car someone would buy.
Clearly, well I meant to be more clear, nobody would buy the $60-70k M3 over the ~$50k M1, if every other aspect other than the fact they could afford the M3 favored the M1.
Sorry for the confusion.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Driver72

No you took my meanings wrong.
I was listing a list of individual qualities of each car that would collectively affect which car someone would buy.
That list was not qualities that would be the only decision of which car someone would buy.
Clearly, well I meant to be more clear, nobody would buy the $60-70k M3 over the ~$50k M1, if every other aspect other than the fact they could afford the M3 favored the M1.
Sorry for the confusion.

Fair enough.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Fair enough.

I edited the post to make that point more clear.
BTW, like your sig quote.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I think you are taking that point a bit too personally.
I was making the point from a sales perspective.
It's not even in the same realm as telling "yo momma" jokes at a bar, much less at somebody else's house.

Somebody could of come to my house and told me my e92 335i was the ugliest car they've ever seen AND it's a girls car to boot, I wouldn't flinch a bit, as that's their view, as wrong as they would be. But if they came into my house and started telling me offensive "yo momma" jokes and meant it, they'd be leaving the house on their own, or via means of force quite quickly.

Other people opinions, perspectives are just as valid, and stating other peoples opinions as they have been made is nothing out of the ordinary in any form of communication, so I'm not sure why you'd feel it best not to state that.
No different than saying, "my brother loves that xxxxx".

It's not argumentative, it's just a fact of personal taste by others, whether it good or bad in your view, that's just your (and yet another) opinion.

Just saying.. Here's the fact. You're coming to a 1 series forum and telling the folk there that you think their car is ugly and plenty consider it a girl's car. (that could very well be construed as trolling - even you can see that) That's the reason I correlated the yo mamma joke. I was going to use the "plenty of folk say your kid's ugly. not me, but plenty do", but thought that too harsh. It's still relevant though. It's less than nice to say if it's your own opinion... which you're not even saying.

If other's opinions are that important, let them say them, and I'm sure we'd love to hear them... Apologies if are you their appointed spokesperson.

See what I'm saying? Btw, those who insult then say the insulted are being too sensitive have quite a few issues, in my book. Or are my panties in too much of a bunch?

Sorry to

[BForbes]

It would be great to see Jeremy, Larryn, Numbers, and Driver72 sitting at a round table having "M-talk." Forget politics or sportscenter. This is where its at. A lot of you guys make sense. I can really pick and choose statements from all of you that I more or less agree with. Makes my head spin, actually.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by larryn

Just saying.. Here's the fact. You're coming to a 1 series forum and telling the folk there that you think their car is ugly and plenty consider it a girl's car. (that could very well be construed as trolling - even you can see that) That's the reason I correlated the yo mamma joke. I was going to use the "plenty of folk say your kid's ugly. not me, but plenty do", but thought that too harsh. It's still relevant though. It's less than nice to say if it's your own opinion... which you're not even saying.

If other's opinions are that important, let them say them, and I'm sure we'd love to hear them... Apologies if are you their appointed spokesperson.

See what I'm saying? Btw, those who insult then say the insulted are being too sensitive have quite a few issues, in my book. Or are my panties in too much of a bunch?

Sorry to

Nah, I'm not trolling.
Again, I didn't say I think the 1 series is a girls car, I said many do (see e90post). As for looks, I think I made it clear that I don't consider the 1 series ugly (well I used to when it first came out, it's grown on me) but I do think it's proportions are a bit odd. An inch lower roof and a 1/2 inch wider would probably solve that, as well as making the head lights a bit smaller.
I considered getting a 135i a few months ago myself, but it's too similiar to my two 335i's and in my opinion not as good looking as the e92 coupe.
I'm in this thread because I read about the M1 and am quite frankly pretty excited about it.
It's looks have improved my concerns about the 135i, and it's increased overall performance is enticing. Though I know a JB3 tune on a 135/335 will still walk the 345 hp M1, but straight line speed is only one aspect. And I'm sure the M1 will be a tune away from walking a tuned 135/335.

yes, you're panties are in too much of a bunch. No offense was intended with my views of the 128/135 or me repeating what many have said about the 1 series being a "girls" car.

Originally Posted by BForbes

It would be great to see Jeremy, Larryn, Numbers, and Driver72 sitting at a round table having "M-talk." Forget politics or sportscenter. This is where its at. A lot of you guys make sense. I can really pick and choose statements from all of you that I more or less agree with. Makes my head spin, actually.

The first part sounded like a compliment to us, the last sentence I'm not sure about.

[ennislaw]

Originally Posted by BForbes

It would be great to see Jeremy, Larryn, Numbers, and Driver72 sitting at a round table having "M-talk." Forget politics or sportscenter. This is where its at. A lot of you guys make sense. I can really pick and choose statements from all of you that I more or less agree with. Makes my head spin, actually.

Yeah, LOL here. Made for Sunday morning TV. Not a single one has quoted anything but their own opinion, but hey, I suppose the folks on TV at least get paid for providing their manipulated external references.

pge

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by ennislaw

Yeah, LOL here. Made for Sunday morning TV. Not a single one has quoted anything but their own opinion, but hey, I suppose the folks on TV at least get paid for providing their manipulated external references.

pge

What would you like us to quote about a car that no one but BMW engineers have driven?

We're comparing the car to other vehicles in its class based on what we know so far, and some speculation. I'm not sure what else you expect from a thread about a car that's still at least a year away from showrooms.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by ennislaw

Yeah, LOL here. Made for Sunday morning TV. Not a single one has quoted anything but their own opinion, but hey, I suppose the folks on TV at least get paid for providing their manipulated external references.

pge

That's not true, I clearly stated some other people's opinions.
And isn't primarily stating your own opinion what you are suppose to do anyway? Pretty hard to have a discussion filled with never stating your opinion. There are facts, fiction, and speculation and how each person feels about each. That's what makes a discussion a discussion.