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      06-08-2018, 06:10 PM   #1
jhall1957
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1M or M2C

In the last 2 days I've driven both my 11k miles 1M and my 2k miles M2 Performance Edition and now I have a "issue". My plan was to get M2C and then decide between M2PE and M2C. But now I find I like the M2PE better then 1M.

The exhaust, the power, and then factor in I love the DCT in my M4. May end up selling both and going with M2C.

Thoughts?
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      06-08-2018, 07:19 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by jhall1957 View Post
In the last 2 days I've driven both my 11k miles 1M and my 2k miles M2 Performance Edition and now I have a "issue". My plan was to get M2C and then decide between M2PE and M2C. But now I find I like the M2PE better then 1M.

The exhaust, the power, and then factor in I love the DCT in my M4. May end up selling both and going with M2C.

Thoughts?
The 1M is a car you are either in love with or don't own, IMO!! If you prefer the M2 to it, it's time to sell it somebody who will appreciate it for what it is.
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      06-08-2018, 07:23 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhall1957 View Post
In the last 2 days I've driven both my 11k miles 1M and my 2k miles M2 Performance Edition and now I have a "issue". My plan was to get M2C and then decide between M2PE and M2C. But now I find I like the M2PE better then 1M.

The exhaust, the power, and then factor in I love the DCT in my M4. May end up selling both and going with M2C.

Thoughts?
The 1M is a car you are either in love with or don't own, IMO!! If you prefer the M2 to it, it's time to sell it somebody who will appreciate it for what it is.
What he said. X2. Sell it enjoy your car!
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      06-08-2018, 07:49 PM   #4
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I don't have an M2PE, but I do have a 2018 M2 LCI, as well as a 1M with ~30K miles on it. I feel the opposite way.

The M2 is bigger and noticeably heavier. There is a certain amount of distance between the machine and the driver, whereas with the 1M, the driver to machine interface is almost a direct connection. There's a video-game aspect to the M2, which I find in all new BMWs and most new performance cars, which is absent on the 1M, which I find to be an "analog," as opposed to a "digital," vehicle.

Obviously some people must like the direction that BMW is taking with their newer vehicles, or they wouldn't be selling record numbers. You are probably much more representative of the sort of person BMW is selling cars to today, and I'm more representative of the type of person who is about to jump off the ship.

I love my 1M. As for the M2, it's about as serviceable a car as BMW seems capable of making these days. I like it, and I like what it can do, but I don't love it, and I don't sit around thinking, "gee, I'd love to drive my M2 today," like I do feel about my 1M and about several other cars that I own.
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      06-09-2018, 01:17 AM   #5
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Same sentiment here. When you’re at the point of not loving the 1M anymore, sell it! And you’ll likely not miss it. My wife drove the 1M and said she didn’t like it because it wasn’t relaxing. It darted around on the road, the power delivery scared her a bit, and everything felt a bit sensitive and twitchy to her. She didn’t like it for this, I love it for this.

When I was asked what I thought of the M2 after a half day drive, I said “it was nice to drive”. When I first drove the 1M for the first time, I said “this thing’s angry!” So if I ever grow up and want a more relaxed fast car, I also will look elsewhere. Nothing wrong with being there, great to have the choices and the means to make them I say.
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      06-09-2018, 06:53 PM   #6
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I am thinking the M2C will be even further away from the 1M. Keep in mind I think the M2 is a brilliant car and looking forward to driving it on homestead speedway next week. But for the same reasons the 1M shines over the M2, I believe M2C will even be further along in evolution. I have tracked and worked on my s55 engine for two years now and can say it really is a helluva engine especially for the track but for the street not so much. The n55 has been my favorite of the three (n54,n55,s55) and suspect now with the dimensions of the M2C, with the abilities of the s55, coupled with the suspension tweaks and brakes, the new M2C will be a beast but again... even further from the 1M.
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      06-09-2018, 08:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wilson View Post
I am thinking the M2C will be even further away from the 1M. Keep in mind I think the M2 is a brilliant car and looking forward to driving it on homestead speedway next week. But for the same reasons the 1M shines over the M2, I believe M2C will even be further along in evolution. I have tracked and worked on my s55 engine for two years now and can say it really is a helluva engine especially for the track but for the street not so much. The n55 has been my favorite of the three (n54,n55,s55) and suspect now with the dimensions of the M2C, with the abilities of the s55, coupled with the suspension tweaks and brakes, the new M2C will be a beast but again... even further from the 1M.
Ya I agree. I have driven a few M2s and liked them as cars but definitely didn't love them and wasn't too interested. They felt very detached to me as a driving experience. Numb steering, well sorted but just not interactive in the way the 1M is. The M2C is even heavier with the same boring steering and I agree with you it will be even more "modern" which is not a good thing. I think the M2 is a good car but doesn't feel "special".
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      06-10-2018, 07:02 AM   #8
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I agree with the others.

If you are wanting to sell the 1M then sell it to someone like seis-speed that is looking for one.

Sell the M4 quickly before it loses any more value, and pick up the M2 C which will have a fresh warranty and basically will be the same car. Then you have an M2 PE for track and the M2 Comp as a daily driver and if you like the DCT/S55 combo then you can do it again.

On a personal level , I was interested in the M2 but as I see it get heavier and heavier I get less interested. To me the PE edition of the OG M2 is the best as it is the lightest.

I've been more than happy with the power in the 1M so the S55 has little attraction for me. If I wanted to buy a 3600 Lb M car then I would get an M3, not an M4 or an M2 comp that weighs the same and has less utility for daily driving.



Having both a 3600 lb M2 and a 3600 lb M4 in the same dealerships also doesn't make much sense to me, other than if BMW continues to produce the M2 in low volume it will simply have dealers stepping clients over to the M4.
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      06-10-2018, 12:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I agree with the others.

If you are wanting to sell the 1M then sell it to someone like seis-speed that is looking for one.

Sell the M4 quickly before it loses any more value, and pick up the M2 C which will have a fresh warranty and basically will be the same car. Then you have an M2 PE for track and the M2 Comp as a daily driver and if you like the DCT/S55 combo then you can do it again.

On a personal level , I was interested in the M2 but as I see it get heavier and heavier I get less interested. To me the PE edition of the OG M2 is the best as it is the lightest.

I've been more than happy with the power in the 1M so the S55 has little attraction for me. If I wanted to buy a 3600 Lb M car then I would get an M3, not an M4 or an M2 comp that weighs the same and has less utility for daily driving.



Having both a 3600 lb M2 and a 3600 lb M4 in the same dealerships also doesn't make much sense to me, other than if BMW continues to produce the M2 in low volume it will simply have dealers stepping clients over to the M4.
BMW, are you listening?

Make a small (no bigger than an E46 3-Series or 135i) car weighing no more than 3200-3300 lbs, with a hatch, 300 HP (no more than 350, not needed), with truly responsive steering, RWD, and a manual transmission. Call it anything you like, M-designation is optional. The interior need not be special, just tasteful leather, no tech overload, welcome gongs, and that sort of shit. Sell it for $47,500. You will blow the rest of the hot hatch market away, and re-establish your brand as being interested in drivers' cars.
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      06-10-2018, 01:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I agree with the others.

If you are wanting to sell the 1M then sell it to someone like seis-speed that is looking for one.

Sell the M4 quickly before it loses any more value, and pick up the M2 C which will have a fresh warranty and basically will be the same car. Then you have an M2 PE for track and the M2 Comp as a daily driver and if you like the DCT/S55 combo then you can do it again.

On a personal level , I was interested in the M2 but as I see it get heavier and heavier I get less interested. To me the PE edition of the OG M2 is the best as it is the lightest.

I've been more than happy with the power in the 1M so the S55 has little attraction for me. If I wanted to buy a 3600 Lb M car then I would get an M3, not an M4 or an M2 comp that weighs the same and has less utility for daily driving.



Having both a 3600 lb M2 and a 3600 lb M4 in the same dealerships also doesn't make much sense to me, other than if BMW continues to produce the M2 in low volume it will simply have dealers stepping clients over to the M4.
I also agree with adjuster, get the M2 and sell your 1M to someone that will truly love it. There are advantages to having a warranty, you can do ED again and it you will have the excitement again of the latest and greatest but just be prepared for when the M2C is out of warranty and electric SUVs and minivans are destroying it at red lights with soccer mom's driving them, it will also be another used BMW. Be prepared in 5 years to tell people, yeah I sold my 1M and got this....and sure enough someone will look at you amazed and said...you had a 1M and sold it?

I am not trying to talk you out of it....sell it please...there are a lot of people who this would be their dream car, just trying to help you prepare mentally for that. I go to Cars and Coffee all the time and the most common phrase I hear over and over again is...yeah, I had a X and sold it...man what was I thinking, wish I would've kept it.

If you do buy the M2, and you like manual, I recommend you get manual and you get ED and you don't bloat it even more. In the future, if my 1M got hit by a meteor and will be looking for an M2, i will be excluding automatic, DCT and Loaded keywords from my searches. Everything in the future will be automatic and loaded with crap, the cars that will stand out will be the manuals with less crap on them.

Best wishes!
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      06-10-2018, 03:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
BMW, are you listening?

Make a small (no bigger than an E46 3-Series or 135i) car weighing no more than 3200-3300 lbs, with a hatch, 300 HP (no more than 350, not needed), with truly responsive steering, RWD, and a manual transmission. Call it anything you like, M-designation is optional. The interior need not be special, just tasteful leather, no tech overload, welcome gongs, and that sort of shit. Sell it for $47,500. You will blow the rest of the hot hatch market away, and re-establish your brand as being interested in drivers' cars.
i, personally, am awaiting a "0M". a tiny 2900 lb, manual transmission, RWD, 2+2 coupe which is gonna have wide ass fenders like the 1M, look like a literal homage to the 2002 Turbo and is gonna cost $40k.

there is a slim chance i am on heavy drugs. and a heavy chance i am entirely delusional. a moderate chance of both.
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      06-10-2018, 03:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
BMW, are you listening?

Make a small (no bigger than an E46 3-Series or 135i) car weighing no more than 3200-3300 lbs, with a hatch, 300 HP (no more than 350, not needed), with truly responsive steering, RWD, and a manual transmission. Call it anything you like, M-designation is optional. The interior need not be special, just tasteful leather, no tech overload, welcome gongs, and that sort of shit. Sell it for $47,500. You will blow the rest of the hot hatch market away, and re-establish your brand as being interested in drivers' cars.
Sounds M135i-ish...
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      06-10-2018, 03:47 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ayao View Post
Sounds M135i-ish...
honestly i would have LOVED the E87 130i 5-door hatch if it came here want to buy one some day and import it to the US.

the F-series cars: meh. if the M135i is anything like the M235i i'd hate it...
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      06-10-2018, 04:34 PM   #14
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Sounds M135i-ish...
Yes and no. The N. American 135i did not come with a hatch option. The E82/88 cars are now all at least 5 years old, are a little dated, no warranty, and BMW is simply not going to make any more cars with hydraulic steering. So they are going to have to make the EPS feel more like hydraulic steering, more than it does in the M2, which is their best iteration so far. This means the system has to give feedback to the driver via the steering wheel, in addition to turning resistance.

If what BMW was hoping to do was to get young driving enthusiasts without a pile of cash to become interested in the brand, they are seriously failing with the 2-Series, and outpricing that market with the M2/M2C. Plus, less is more in this category, get rid of the superfluous shit that makes the cars too heavy, make one that is smaller, and then you can sell it for a price that will bring in the 20-somethings and 30-somethings, plus the odd old codger like myself.
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      06-10-2018, 06:08 PM   #15
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FYI I will not treat it as an investment. I will drive the wheels off of this beautiful machine. If there is any satisfaction in knowing the car will be enjoyed and driven PM me any and all 1M owners.
Thanks!!
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      06-10-2018, 06:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I agree with the others.

If you are wanting to sell the 1M then sell it to someone like seis-speed that is looking for one.

Sell the M4 quickly before it loses any more value, and pick up the M2 C which will have a fresh warranty and basically will be the same car. Then you have an M2 PE for track and the M2 Comp as a daily driver and if you like the DCT/S55 combo then you can do it again.

On a personal level , I was interested in the M2 but as I see it get heavier and heavier I get less interested. To me the PE edition of the OG M2 is the best as it is the lightest.

I've been more than happy with the power in the 1M so the S55 has little attraction for me. If I wanted to buy a 3600 Lb M car then I would get an M3, not an M4 or an M2 comp that weighs the same and has less utility for daily driving.



Having both a 3600 lb M2 and a 3600 lb M4 in the same dealerships also doesn't make much sense to me, other than if BMW continues to produce the M2 in low volume it will simply have dealers stepping clients over to the M4.
I also agree with adjuster, get the M2 and sell your 1M to someone that will truly love it. There are advantages to having a warranty, you can do ED again and it you will have the excitement again of the latest and greatest but just be prepared for when the M2C is out of warranty and electric SUVs and minivans are destroying it at red lights with soccer mom's driving them, it will also be another used BMW. Be prepared in 5 years to tell people, yeah I sold my 1M and got this....and sure enough someone will look at you amazed and said...you had a 1M and sold it?

I am not trying to talk you out of it....sell it please...there are a lot of people who this would be their dream car, just trying to help you prepare mentally for that. I go to Cars and Coffee all the time and the most common phrase I hear over and over again is...yeah, I had a X and sold it...man what was I thinking, wish I would've kept it.

If you do buy the M2, and you like manual, I recommend you get manual and you get ED and you don't bloat it even more. In the future, if my 1M got hit by a meteor and will be looking for an M2, i will be excluding automatic, DCT and Loaded keywords from my searches. Everything in the future will be automatic and loaded with crap, the cars that will stand out will be the manuals with less crap on them.

Best wishes!
OP actually owns the performance edition M2 on which only 150 models of the M2 were made that have manual seats. Of those 150 half are 6MT and the other are DCT. All Other US M2 including the new M2 comp have power seats.

So... there are only 75 M2 with manual seats that I would want.
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      06-11-2018, 12:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
I don't have an M2PE, but I do have a 2018 M2 LCI, as well as a 1M with ~30K miles on it. I feel the opposite way.

The M2 is bigger and noticeably heavier. There is a certain amount of distance between the machine and the driver, whereas with the 1M, the driver to machine interface is almost a direct connection. There's a video-game aspect to the M2, which I find in all new BMWs and most new performance cars, which is absent on the 1M, which I find to be an "analog," as opposed to a "digital," vehicle.

Obviously some people must like the direction that BMW is taking with their newer vehicles, or they wouldn't be selling record numbers. You are probably much more representative of the sort of person BMW is selling cars to today, and I'm more representative of the type of person who is about to jump off the ship.

I love my 1M. As for the M2, it's about as serviceable a car as BMW seems capable of making these days. I like it, and I like what it can do, but I don't love it, and I don't sit around thinking, "gee, I'd love to drive my M2 today," like I do feel about my 1M and about several other cars that I own.
You have to remember you are comparing it to a 1M that you own and drive. Many people who I have met that bought an M2 are either jumping up from a 335i/235i coming from a Merc or Audi....or are seeing it as an E46 successor (my viewpoint on the car) with a WARRANTY and more low-end grunt. To many it is very sporty & aggressive in comparison to what they are comparing it to and will not see the same flaws that you do.
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      06-11-2018, 01:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
You have to remember you are comparing it to a 1M that you own and drive. Many people who I have met that bought an M2 are either jumping up from a 335i/235i coming from a Merc or Audi....or are seeing it as an E46 successor (my viewpoint on the car) with a WARRANTY and more low-end grunt. To many it is very sporty & aggressive in comparison to what they are comparing it to and will not see the same flaws that you do.
I have a 1M, which I have owned for 3 years, but I don't drive it enough, nor is it my only frame of reference, for that to be all that relevant. The warranty on the M2 is certainly a plus.

The electronics overload, the weight, the acceptable but not great EPS, are all elements that serve to distract or distance the driver from the piece of equipment he is driving. If you enjoy video games, then these things might be a plus.

If you have driven a whole slew of driver-oriented cars over the last few decades, these things are a real minus, even if the car is way more powerful than the old cars that make up your frame of reference.
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      06-12-2018, 08:18 PM   #19
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My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
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      06-13-2018, 03:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T1M View Post
My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T1M View Post
My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
What you've described as a possible weakness is exactly what some of us want!! things like this are exactly one of the reasons why the 1M is such an engaging car to drive. If people are after the "latest tech" then it's not the car for them. If they're after a classic driving experience closer to older M cars then it's absolutely for them...
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      06-13-2018, 10:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T1M View Post
My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
Your opinion has 0 actual basis. Why do you think wheel speed differences occur? torque differences... The mechanism and result is essentially the same wether you bias torque based on the internal spring resistance of a clutch type diff or the fluid viscosity (spring resistance) of the Viscolok.

The inconsistency with the Viscolok LSD is that it allows 100% locking and tends to put the car into a drift if you arent careful if your inputs and awareness of your limit of grip (avoid abrupt throttle inputs). Most diffs don't allow more than 70% lock on accel.
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Last edited by bbnks2; 06-13-2018 at 01:21 PM.
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      06-13-2018, 11:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by T1M View Post
My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T1M View Post
My main issue with the 1M is the unpredictable VLSD. It is not a normal plated clutch type LSD and it's ability to lock depends on the viscous section first shearing a fluid by differential wheel speeds across the rear axle. This causes the fluid to expand and force a piston against the plates, locking the diff. However once locked, the fluid contracts and the diff unlocks, then a wheel speed difference again must exist to re-lock the diff.

This locking/unlocking characteristic being based purely on wheel speed difference is appropriate for traction on variable friction surfaces like patches of snow or ice but is unpredictable and inconsistent when driving spiritedly. Usually a plated LSD works by locking more or less based on torque applied to the diff, either acceleration (1-way) or deceleration (1.5-way or a more aggressive 2-way).

To me, despite the analogue feel and design of the 1M, the unpredictable diff is a very poor match for a short wheelbase car with a high-torque 3L turbo engine. It makes it a fun ride/wild/angry car but in actual performance/handling terms it's lacking vs the newer BMW M's using the new active LSD's.
What you've described as a possible weakness is exactly what some of us want!! things like this are exactly one of the reasons why the 1M is such an engaging car to drive. If people are after the "latest tech" then it's not the car for them. If they're after a classic driving experience closer to older M cars then it's absolutely for them...
I have to agree. The diff has its issues but overall it makes the car cool and engaging to drive. Maybe it's just me. When I was 15 I went stayed at a horse Ranch for a week. I was a city kid and learned to ride a horse. They put me on the most docile horses they had. It was nice for a couple of days but they had a Mustang that was huge and awesome looking. He would snort and headbutt other horses. He would periodically stand on his hind legs and the cowboy would have to calm him down. I kept asking if I could ride him and they told me no until the last day. Finally I climbed on top of the beast. It took way more skill and effort to keep him going but when he galloped it was scary and fast. I was a little scared the whole time. Finally we made it back to the ranch safe and sound and I was so excited I got off too fast and my boot got caught in the stirrup. The horse moved and knowing a friend was dragged to death like this a year before I panicked and kicked the horse in the side to push away. The horse kicked me and when I was in the ground tried to stomp me. I rolled into a ditch and the cowboys saved me. I never rode a horse again but I don't remember any of the docile horses I rode all week. I only remember riding that wild mustang now 35 years later!

So if you're into smooth and docile that's ok but sometimes the most memorable rides are a little wild and a little scary. The world is full of OSHA approved comfy rides. Some of us appreciate something a little different.
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