wavetrac lsd

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Pro's for Helical:
- Cheaper
- Maintenance Free
- NVH Free

Con's for Helical:
- Limited in torque transfer to traction wheel (% dependant on brand of LSD)
- Stops functioning when free-wheeling (although Wavetrac does have their wavelock feature to kind of overcome this)
- Non-Adjustable to your driving style i.e one-size-fits-all

Pro's for Plate:
- Fully adjustable to your driving style (dependant on brand of LSD) i.e Lock Capacity, Engagement/Aggressiveness, Pre-load

Con's for Plate:
- More expensive
- Takes trial & error (and experience) to setup LSD correctly i.e NOT one-size-fits-all. This is why I am hugely against all these oem/oem-based setups being sold by the "other" BMW specialists. If you have to rely on a "specialist" for advice and to setup your LSD for you, then a Plate LSD is not for you. The whole point of a Plate LSD is for its adjustability. If you are not going to touch it, then buy a Helical LSD
- Increased NVH. Unless you don't mind sounding like a tractor in the parking lot, and constant jerking at low corner speeds, these are not for you. Not so bad with an oem/oem-based Plate LSD, but then again, those aren't exactly performance LSD's, no matter what the "specialist" tries to tell (sell) you

I'd really like to know how much time you're giving up on the track, lets put it in terms of 60 second increments, that you sacrifice with a OEM based Plate LSD versus Aftermarket Plate LSD.

Assume same car, and advanced driving talent.

[MFactory]

How much time depends on the driver and their driving style/preferences. An oem plate LSD, like a Helical LSD, is basically just fit and forget. That may be better for some, worse for others.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by MFactory

How much time depends on the driver and their driving style/preferences. An oem plate LSD, like a Helical LSD, is basically just fit and forget. That may be better for some, worse for others.

So basically no anecdotal evidence to support all claims you've been making. Got it

Full Disclosure, I run an OEM-type Diff from "other people" as you like to call them. Never felt like it was hindering performance over any other sort of diff. This said diff has won me competitions across SCCA Champ Tour and ProSolo events, even coming away with the 2015 SCCA ProSolo Champion in STX, traveling to Lincoln this weekend to back up the title.

Anyways, I find it really funny how hard you market your products while making sure you have time to completely put down others, every post is strategically phrased to but competitors products to shame as inferior.

I knew what I wanted for a diff, chose my preload and ramp angles and built it from there. Off-the shelf...eh not really.


It's funny, how me running an OEM-Type diff is bad, but competitors also in 128s after driving a car with my type of diff in it, dump their M Factory Clutch diff because of too much lock, and insta understeer push tendencies it likes to make regardless of "adjustments" made. And yes, I drove it and didn't like the behavior of it either

There is the art of theory and real world, you don't seem to come to this thread with an unbiased option showing such.

My $0.02

[RyanDavies]

What Kyle said.

I've known *one* person in the Solo community to be satisfied with their MFactory parts, even after several cycles going back and forth, and about 15 or so who bailed and went with Giken, Cusco, or back to an OE Torsen diff, or in the case of the 128 competitor (not sure whether Kyle and I are talking about the same person) the Diffsonline that Kyle and I have that has worked flawlessly out of the box.

Results speak for themselves, and not having to open up a diff case 38000 times is a big bonus, too.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

My $0.02

First of all, this is not a sales thread, so not once have I promoted or even mentioned a particular brand that we sell, not once. As I'm sure you already know, there are plenty of aftermarket Plate LSD's available for the BMW; you just don't hear about them in North America much other than the common JDM Brands. There are several times the number of European brands compared to JDM.

Second, I have not put down any brand as inferior. An oem/oem-style LSD is not a brand; it is a modified oem LSD. And just as you like to give your 2 cents, that is simply what I am doing as well i.e Being from Europe, I do not particularly rate the oem/oem-style LSD's as we have a plethora of aftermarket LSD's to choose from, which are superior in function/performance (this, you cannot deny). Again, I did not once mention a particular brand that we sell, so if anyone here is doing some brand bashing, it is you. All I done was simply give my reason as to why I (and almost all other Europeans) think of an aftermarket LSD as superior to the oem LSD. Whether you listen to my 2 cents or not, that is your choice.

Third: Again, this is not a sales thread, so I don't really want to go into it, but seeing as you did, we have not even started promoting our Plate LSD's for the BMW. We had them available in our catalogue, some people bought them, but we never promoted them (only our Helical). Why? Because this particular LSD you are referring to (our v1 Plate LSD) was originally designed for our FWD JDM market until one of our customers asked us to make a fitment for their BMW. That particular design was never intended for the BMW market (hence not promoting it), but our new LSD design (our v2 Plate LSD) that we have just finished testing on was developed on and for a BMW in Germany at our German Facility by an ex-senior engineer for Drexler.

Again, just my 2 cents

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by RyanDavies

What Kyle said.

I've known *one* person in the Solo community to be satisfied with their MFactory parts, even after several cycles going back and forth, and about 15 or so who bailed and went with Giken, Cusco, or back to an OE Torsen diff, or in the case of the 128 competitor (not sure whether Kyle and I are talking about the same person) the Diffsonline that Kyle and I have that has worked flawlessly out of the box.

Results speak for themselves, and not having to open up a diff case 38000 times is a big bonus, too.

Again, not to deliberately repeat myself, I did not once say that oem/oem-lsd's do not work. There are tonnes of people running them in North America (as you already know, being one of them) successfully. But that does not mean there is not something better out there, and to think there is not, that is foolish. If you did not think that, then you just agreed with me.

Everyone here is asking for opinions, and that is all that I done i.e give my opinion. For you to come on here and start flaming me (and try to degrade my brand) just for voicing an unbiased opinion, well...

Again, just my 2 cents

P.S We've not even sold 15 Plate LSD's (a handful, maximum, worldwide. And just incase you don't know, worldwide is NOT the same as USA) for BMW, so again, your brand-bashing is rather unwarranted

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Second, I have not put down any brand as inferior. An oem/oem-style LSD is not a brand; it is a modified oem LSD.

So you didn't actually say:

Originally Posted by MFactory

1)OEM-Based LSD's should not even be compared to real multi-plate (as in 20+ Plate) LSD's. These are cheap band-aids that, although do function as advertised, are not even in the same league

Or

Originally Posted by MFactory

1) Forget about the OEM-Based LSD's. These are all washer/cone style LSD's (i.e old tech) and, although they may provide the beginner with the progressiveness/smoothness that they require, this is only because the LSD is inherently "weak" to begin with. There is a reason why the more experienced driver would prefer a "real" LSD, and not a cheap OEM-Based LSD. Disclaimer: Don't get me wrong, they work and serve their function, but if you want something more advanced and tunable as you progress in driver skill, this is not your best option
2) Forget about the washer/cone style multi-plate LSD's (again, old tech). For the most part, these are like on/off switches and will not provide you with the progressiveness/smoothness that you require

Well, you certainly didn't put down any particular "brand", only the products they sell. So what you are saying is that Diffsonline, Metric Mechanic, Performance Gearing, et al are peddling "cheap", "weak", antiquated ("old tech") "band-aids" alongside their more premium offerings.

Originally Posted by MFactory

First of all, this is not a sales thread

No, no spin at all. Aldous Huxley would be both proud and terrified by the accuracy of his predictions.

One last quote:

Originally Posted by MFactory

1)be wary of those who promote their ideals as gospel.

[MFactory]

And you just proved my point; I did not post any of that on this thread, so why am I being flamed for something on this thread that I wrote on a completely different thread? If you want to quote, do it on the other thread

So because I just happen to be a vendor, I'm not allowed to express my own opinion on any non-sales threads? Is this not supposed to be a community where people are free to express their opinions? Or does that only apply to non-vendors?

To cut the story short, I expressed my opinion I.e I do not rate OEM/oem-based LSD's, and have expressed my reasons without bringing any company or brand in to it. If you do not want to listen to what I have to say, then don't listen; I'm not forcing you

I will never directly mention a vendor in a negative way or say bad things about them. Why? Because we supply a lot of them with their premium "own-brand" parts that you buy and use. We don't just sell/manufacture our own products

And you wonder why more vendors can't be bothered posting on and supporting forums and putting up with this crap. You are killing your own community and only have yourself to blame.

Just my 2 cents, but as you guys have made it very clear that I'm not allowed to express my personal opinions as I'm a vendor (thus will only recommend our own products. Lmao. If you actually talk to me, rather than try to shit on me, you will know that I am far from biased), I'll just let it rest, not post again (I.e contribute to the community), and just stick to our own sales threads

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by MFactory

And you just proved my point; I did not post any of that on this thread, so why am I being flamed for something on this thread that I wrote on a completely different thread? If you want to quote, do it on the other thread

So because I just happen to be a vendor, I'm not allowed to express my own opinion on any non-sales threads? Is this not supposed to be a community where people are free to express their opinions? Or does that only apply to non-vendors?

To cut the story short, I expressed my opinion I.e I do not rate OEM/oem-based LSD's, and have expressed my reasons without bringing any company or brand in to it. If you do not want to listen to what I have to say, then don't listen; I'm not forcing you

I will never directly mention a vendor or say bad things about them. Why? Because we supply a lot of them with their premium "own-brand" parts that you buy and use. We don't just sell/manufacture our own products

And you wonder why more vendors can't be bothered posting on forums and putting up with this crap

Just my 2 cents, but as you guys have made it very clear that I'm not allowed to express my personal opinions as I'm a vendor, I'll just let it rest.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by MFactory

Dan at DiffsOnline build most of their Diff Builds, and guess who supplies Dan with custom-branded LSD's?

You absolutely can post your opinion anywhere, though people reading your opinion should also know you have something to gain by your expressing it. By labeling (I'm sorry, opining) that OEM-based LSDs are weak, cheap and "old tech" you've already eliminated half your competition for future sales to those who listen to "expert" vendors. I'd put more stock in your "unbiased opinion" if I saw more posts from you in subjects that you didn't have a product to sell, or at least had the cojones to point out where the other guy does it better with the product that you do sell. Other than that, your post are strictly to sway public perception.

"Gosh, OEM plate-style diffs suck and premium offerings are great (but way expensive), but... (I didn't out and out say it but we offer something "similar" to the expensive guys, but at a lower price point.)"

How's your web site traffic after each of your posts? Now there's an interesting metric.

[MFactory]

Rather than quote my 1st post (which I done on my phone, so I had to edit it), you should quote my edited post above, which was done before you posted your reply: "I will never directly mention a vendor in a negative way or say bad things about them"

I have nothing to gain, as we've haven't even released our new Plate LSD to market yet (and is a long time off), and don't ever plan on marketing our current Plate LSD to this market (it is in our catalogue, but we do not actively market it). And I freely point out where the other guys do it better: OS Giken and Drexler have superior products to our current offerings. I've mentioned this in several posts before.

You have a multitude of options for non-oem Plate LSD's, ones which have been used successfully for a very long time in Europe, as well as the common JDM options:

- 3J
- Titan
- Drexler
- Kaaz
- Cusco
- OS Giken
- ATS/Carbonetic
- etc etc.

I'm not the one trying to create a monopoly, as I welcome competition; competition breeds innovation. Unfortunately, there are no North American companies willing to step up to the plate and actively promote something more advanced nor import a major European brand, as their bread and butter is selling you the oem/oem-based builds as there is more profit to be made there; Modifying an oem diff is more profitable than having to purchase an LSD from a manufacturer and then try to sell it.

[Taskmaster]

I've seen a comparison between LSDs.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by MFactory

That's because you have an oem/oem-based Plate LSD, which are nowhere near the effectiveness/performance of a real aftermarket Plate LSD with full adjustability.

The oem Plate LSD's are designed to be used on a street car, thus compromised in terms of performance (even when they are "modified" by DiffsOnline/VAC etc). Even a Helical LSD will outperform the oem Plate LSD's on both street and track (except in certain circumstances such as free-wheeling). There is a reason why Helical LSD's sell so well for the M cars (which all have the oem LSD as standard).

Yes, the oem/oem-style Plate LSD's may be slightly cheaper (depending on who you purchased it from), but for only a few hundred dollars more than a Helical LSD setup, you can have a much better performing setup with an aftermarket Plate LSD (for a track car)

The reason why the oem/oem-style Plate LSD's have taken off in North America (and only here) is because 1) huge profit margins, 2) very tame for a street car, 3) Limited availability of aftermarket Plate LSD's in North America (only EU/Asian companies make them)

Originally Posted by MFactory

The Wavetrac is a torque biasing differential; it does not lock, and can only transfer upto 66% torque to the wheel with traction.

In comparison, a Plate LSD does lock (that's how it functions) and, depending on the brand of LSD, can provide upto 100% lock capacity, multiple engagement angles (i.e you can set how aggressive you want it to lock) and multiple pre-load settings (i.e you can set how aggressive you want it to be during slow cornering)

On the track (circuit/auto-x/rally), there is a night & day difference between a Helical/Torque Biasing differential (which is non-adjustable), and a fully adjustable Plate LSD. If you are an inexperienced track driver and do not know how to adjust a Plate LSD to your driving/track preference, then you would find a Helical/Torque Biasing differential easier to get the hang of.

On a street car, then generally a Helical/Torque Biasing differential is the better choice.

Originally Posted by MFactory

Pro's for Helical:
- Cheaper
- Maintenance Free
- NVH Free

Con's for Helical:
- Limited in torque transfer to traction wheel (% dependant on brand of LSD)
- Stops functioning when free-wheeling (although Wavetrac does have their wavelock feature to kind of overcome this)
- Non-Adjustable to your driving style i.e one-size-fits-all

Pro's for Plate:
- Fully adjustable to your driving style (dependant on brand of LSD) i.e Lock Capacity, Engagement/Aggressiveness, Pre-load

Con's for Plate:
- More expensive
- Takes trial & error (and experience) to setup LSD correctly i.e NOT one-size-fits-all. This is why I am hugely against all these oem/oem-based setups being sold by the "other" BMW specialists. If you have to rely on a "specialist" for advice and to setup your LSD for you, then a Plate LSD is not for you. The whole point of a Plate LSD is for its adjustability. If you are not going to touch it, then buy a Helical LSD
- Increased NVH. Unless you don't mind sounding like a tractor in the parking lot, and constant jerking at low corner speeds, these are not for you. Not so bad with an oem/oem-based Plate LSD, but then again, those aren't exactly performance LSD's, no matter what the "specialist" tries to tell (sell) you

Regardless, if you want to defend it or not, you directly make blanket statements towards other companies. Pretty cut and dry. All taken from this thread.


You constantly harp on OEM Based Diffs. Even with wrong information (Such as all OEM M Diffs are Plate LSDs). Newer Gen cars (Like the 1M) are Viscous M Variable Diffs, which will wear out overtime and default to an open diff, which is why ANY upgrade to an aftermarket diff (whether rebuilt OEM Diff or Helical) is a good option.


The fact you can't even quantify a value of time gained/lost over differentials is pretty clear you're biased toward steering customers away from competition.


It's funny how you'd recommend OS Giken as a unit to replace with, yet OS Giken doesn't even sell differentials for these cars anymore?

You know what's even better? I contacted OS Giken directly about building a diff for my car and I was told to not use their differential. Guess who they pointed me towards? Competition and Dan at DiffsOnline.

Not everyone is out for blood. We're a community and respect a marketplace where multiple options exist. But I will call BS when I see it.

[MFactory]

Yes, I made those statements, but not to steer customers away from the competition, but to encourage consumers to think out-of-the-box and not just blindly go for an oem-based setup, especially when there are lots of other options out there, some even available from said competition. This is not BS

I'm not steering anyone towards any particular company, and certainly not my own (read that again: I'm not steering anyone towards any particular company, and certainly not my own).

If you got the wrong impression from my posts, then my apologies, it was not what I intended. However, I'm certain there are people other than yourself that appreciates my input to this community.

my posts on this thread is my personal opinion, and if you do not agree with it, then just skip my posts and move on, or even better, offer your opinion on what you think is a good or better option. Hell, you may even change my mind about certain aspects, as we are all constantly learning something new everyday.

regardless whether OS Giken offers a diff or not anymore, my statement above still stands: the OS Giken "was" a superior LSD to our current offering, as is the Drexler. The 3J is a solid LSD, is cheap and works. The Titan is also relatively inexpensive, and offers some of the most advanced plates on the market. The Cusco is similar to our current offering.

did I try to steer anyone away from the competition? ok, how about this:

IF YOU WANT THE BEST PLATE LSD ON THE MARKET CURRENTLY FOR THE BMW, DO NOT BUY THE MFACTORY V1 METAL PLATE LSD AS THERE ARE OTHER/BETTER OPTIONS. Happy? Feel free to quote that

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Regardless, if you want to defend it or not, you directly make blanket statements towards other companies. Pretty cut and dry. All taken from this thread.


You constantly harp on OEM Based Diffs. Even with wrong information (Such as all OEM M Diffs are Plate LSDs). Newer Gen cars (Like the 1M) are Viscous M Variable Diffs, which will wear out overtime and default to an open diff, which is why ANY upgrade to an aftermarket diff (whether rebuilt OEM Diff or Helical) is a good option.


The fact you can't even quantify a value of time gained/lost over differentials is pretty clear you're biased toward steering customers away from competition.


It's funny how you'd recommend OS Giken as a unit to replace with, yet OS Giken doesn't even sell differentials for these cars anymore?

You know what's even better? I contacted OS Giken directly about building a diff for my car and I was told to not use their differential. Guess who they pointed me towards? Competition and Dan at DiffsOnline.

Not everyone is out for blood. We're a community and respect a marketplace where multiple options exist. But I will call BS when I see it.

Originally Posted by MFactory

Yes, the oem/oem-style Plate LSD's may be slightly cheaper (depending on who you purchased it from), but for only a few hundred dollars more than a Helical LSD setup, you can have a much better performing setup with an aftermarket Plate LSD (for a track car)

The reason why the oem/oem-style Plate LSD's have taken off in North America (and only here) is because 1) huge profit margins, 2) very tame for a street car, 3) Limited availability of aftermarket Plate LSD's in North America (only EU/Asian companies make them)

Even the word "cheaper" biases people in a way "less expensive" doesn't. Marketing at its best/worst.

Originally Posted by MFactory

Yes, I made those statements, but not to steer customers away from the competition, but to encourage consumers to think out-of-the-box and not just blindly go for an oem-based setup, especially when there are lots of other options out there

So for the 90% (to 99%), what's wrong with an OEM setup?

Originally Posted by MFactory

Yes, I made those statements, but not to steer customers away from the competition, but to encourage consumers to think out-of-the-box and not just blindly go for an oem-based setup, especially when there are lots of other options out there, some even available from said competition. This is not BS

I'm not steering anyone towards any particular company, and certainly not my own (read that again: I'm not steering anyone towards any particular company, and certainly not my own).

If you got the wrong impression from my posts, then my apologies, it was not what I intended. However, I'm certain there are people other than yourself that appreciates my input to this community.

my posts on this thread is my personal opinion, and if you do not agree with it, then just skip my posts and move on, or even better, offer your opinion on what you think is a good or better option. Hell, you may even change my mind about certain aspects, as we are all constantly learning something new everyday.

regardless whether OS Giken offers a diff or not anymore, my statement above still stands: the OS Giken "was" a superior LSD to our current offering, as is the Drexler. The 3J is a solid LSD, is cheap and works. The Titan is also relatively inexpensive, and offers some of the most advanced plates on the market. The Cusco is similar to our current offering.

did I try to steer anyone away from the competition? ok, how about this:

IF YOU WANT THE BEST PLATE LSD ON THE MARKET CURRENTLY FOR THE BMW, DO NOT BUY THE MFACTORY V1 METAL PLATE LSD AS THERE ARE OTHER/BETTER OPTIONS. Happy? Feel free to quote that

To appear unbiased, how about posting as some anonymous person as opposed to "MFACTORY"?

[MFactory]

Cheaper - Yes, I know where you are coming from, but when I say cheaper, I mean less expensive, NOT lower quality.

As I've mentioned, oem-based setups serve their function and, as lots of people here have shown, can be used successfully on the track. This does not, however, mean there are not any more advanced options available on the market, as there are. And seeing as some of you think I'm just self-promoting - one of the best options is Drexler. Look it up. Buy one if you don't want to be in that 90-99% of North Americans. Or you can look for the other European brands such as 3J and Titan

regarding your last comment about posting anonymously, this is the one thing that I will NEVER do, as that can be thought of as just hiding something or some sort of agenda. This is a commercial forum, which means IP's can be cross-referenced = instant ban. Certainly not the first time this has happened.

the fact is, our brand is direct-to-consumer (how many manufacturers do you know that publicly posts everyday and helps the community?) and we pride ourselves on this. We do not hide anything, and are frowned upon by a lot of other BMW specialists for being active on these forums helping the community wherever we can.

If another company has a better product than our own (and there are those that exist. OS GIKEN AND DREXLER. Quote this if someone wants to use it as fuel for fire in another thread 6 months down the line), I am the first to admit this.

if you think than an oem-based setup is as good or better than the aftermarket options available, rather than trying to convince me that I'm just self-promoting, why not just tell us why you think this is? As I said, I'm open to learning new things.

[titium]

Originally Posted by MFactory

The Wavetrac is a torque biasing differential; it does not lock, and can only transfer upto 66% torque to the wheel with traction.

correct me if I'm wrong here but in no traction instances with the wavelock wouldn't the wheel with traction get more then 2x the torque going to the no traction wheel?

assuming bias ratio of 2:1

the torque going to the traction wheel is now 2x (torque of wheel without traction + torque load created by wavelock). so in essence the wheel with traction sees more then 66%.

also i thought the wavetrac bias ratio was 2.5:1.

please educate me if I'm wrong

[rac]

i'm keen on drexler myself.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by titium

correct me if I'm wrong here but in no traction instances with the wavelock wouldn't the wheel with traction get more then 2x the torque going to the no traction wheel?

assuming bias ratio of 2:1

the torque going to the traction wheel is now 2x (torque of wheel without traction + torque load created by wavelock). so in essence the wheel with traction sees more then 66%.

also i thought the wavetrac bias ratio was 2.5:1.

please educate me if I'm wrong

It has a 2.1:1 bias ratio. This is the max. possible, but yes, if one wheel is unloaded, the other wheel will receive 100% of the torque

Originally Posted by rac

i'm keen on drexler myself.

Good choice

[chris82]

The hate and marketing accusations MFactory gets on here is undeserved. This vendor seems to know what he's talking about and is barely promoting a product let alone one of his own (he's promoting a Quaife LSD as much as an MFactory Helical LSD). If you want to see some examples of biased marketing just search for "Swift Springs" and "Ohlins Suspension". All I'm seeing here is hate stemming from disagreement with what this guy is saying, not actual evidence that he's wrong. And another point that needs to be made: just because a friend had a bad experience with an MFactory diff and you won with a Diffsonline diff means nada. Why? The sample size is too small and there are too many other factors there, it's just statistics.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by chris82

The hate and marketing accusations MFactory gets on here is undeserved. This vendor seems to know what he's talking about and is barely promoting a product let alone one of his own (he's promoting a Quaife LSD as much as an MFactory Helical LSD). If you want to see some examples of biased marketing just search for "Swift Springs" and "Ohlins Suspension". All I'm seeing here is hate stemming from disagreement with what this guy is saying, not actual evidence that he's wrong. And another point that needs to be made: just because a friend had a bad experience with an MFactory diff and you won with a Diffsonline diff means nada. Why? The sample size is too small and there are too many other factors there, it's just statistics.

Right... I don't see anywhere where he is actually wrong in what he's saying.

People are arguing against it because they have a "cheap" differential that works fine for them. That is great, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvment.

There are plenty of other people who wouldn't touch a difsonline lsd for track use. It's pretty much for the reason mfactory is stating. Longevity is a concern.