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      04-17-2018, 10:18 AM   #89
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did ya really need 100 tomahawks though to take out 3 sites?
this is the reason why I believe its less the cold-war era SAMs taking out tomahawks
than the electronic warfare gear the Russians have over Syria
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      04-17-2018, 10:25 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
did ya really need 100 tomahawks though to take out 3 sites?
this is the reason why I believe its less the cold-war era SAMs taking out tomahawks
than the electronic warfare gear the Russians have over Syria
Depends on the size of the sites.

Do you know what EW systems they have over there and what they can achieve?
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      04-17-2018, 10:26 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
Depends on the size of the sites.

Do you know what EW systems they have over there and what they can achieve?
Don't forget the english "Storm Shadow" and French "scalp" missiles that were used. Plus, all the tomahawk missiles are fitted with anti jamming devices for all their electronics, including GPS.
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      04-17-2018, 10:35 AM   #92
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Don't forget the english "Storm Shadow" and French "scalp" missiles that were used. Plus, all the tomahawk missiles are fitted with anti jamming devices for all their electronics, including GPS.
What has to be addressed is that you don't just take a EA system and point it at a target and viola, it's defeated.. Let's say the Russian's were able to use GPS jamming systems to prevent the Tomahawk from reducing it's CEP, it still has its EO/IR main sensors which will keep it within about 10m or so. Combine that with 100 missiles and you have quite the storm. Sure, the Russians could try to blind the sensors and jam the alt readings, but that is extremely hard to achieve and ten-fold against that many missiles. Fit those with ECM modules and the Russians might as well be pointing a hand laser.
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      04-17-2018, 10:40 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
What has to be addressed is that you don't just take a EA system and point it at a target and viola, it's defeated.. Let's say the Russian's were able to use GPS jamming systems to prevent the Tomahawk from reducing it's CEP, it still has its EO/IR main sensors which will keep it within about 10m or so. Combine that with 100 missiles and you have quite the storm. Sure, the Russians could try to blind the sensors and jam the alt readings, but that is extremely hard to achieve and ten-fold against that many missiles. Fit those with ECM modules and the Russians might as well be pointing a hand laser.
Tho I'm adamant about the fact those tomahawks should have never been launched..
still I AM curious as to what the success rate was
yer concentrating on the systems which determine accuracy
it does not appear there was much collateral damage so it would appear either they struck their targets or were shot down

perhaps they are targeting other aspects of the guidance system or other systems
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      04-17-2018, 10:46 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Tho I'm adamant about the fact those tomahawks should have never been launched..
still I AM curious as to what the success rate was
yer concentrating on the systems which determine accuracy
it does not appear there was much collateral damage so it would appear either they struck their targets or were shot down

perhaps they are targeting other aspects of the guidance system or other systems
I mean, Assad could try not dropping chemical weapons and bombs on his own people without regards to the Geneva Convention or innocent people.

It depends on how there were fired. Due to the amount fired, I'd assume they were at a minimum configured to hit their 10m CEP and kept to an AOE config. Keep in mind, 10m is the CEP WITHOUT GPS. Furthermore, this is just the public CEP anyhow. You could assess a success rate based on how many landed within the sites itself and not specific buildings.

In terms of the Russian's targeting "other guidance system"(s), again, you need to look at how a Tomahawk operates. Once you understand that, you will see what I'm explaining here. Tomahawks work off their EO/IR sensors up until terminal guidance, in which they switch to GPS which significantly reduces CEP. If unavailable, you still have the 10m CEP.
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      04-17-2018, 11:22 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
I mean, Assad could try not dropping chemical weapons and bombs on his own people without regards to the Geneva Convention or innocent people.

It depends on how there were fired. Due to the amount fired, I'd assume they were at a minimum configured to hit their 10m CEP and kept to an AOE config. Keep in mind, 10m is the CEP WITHOUT GPS. Furthermore, this is just the public CEP anyhow. You could assess a success rate based on how many landed within the sites itself and not specific buildings.

In terms of the Russian's targeting "other guidance system"(s), again, you need to look at how a Tomahawk operates. Once you understand that, you will see what I'm explaining here. Tomahawks work off their EO/IR sensors up until terminal guidance, in which they switch to GPS which significantly reduces CEP. If unavailable, you still have the 10m CEP.
Well our government could wait for an investigation conclusion before applying punishment.. if indeed guilty then they deserve the smack
but when a party shoots first and then ask questions later.. it indicates a weakargument imo

and is it any surprise they shot down a few over Syria..
if they jam the Tomahawk forcing it to fly at higher altitude, the Russian Pantsir r supposedly effective against tomahawks in trials even at low altitudes
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      04-17-2018, 11:27 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Well our government could wait for an investigation conclusion before applying punishment..
and is it any surprise they shot down a few over Syria..
if they jam the Tomahawk forcing it to fly at higher altitude, the Russian Pantsir r supposedly effective against tomahawks in trials even at low altitudes
Have you been out-of-tune with what has been happening in Syria since Assad came into power? This isn't the first occurrence and this is definitely not the first time he has killed/injured innocent people. You could argue that collateral damage is normal in war and it is to a degree, but you do not consider what he's doing as normal. He has no regard for the slant of an area he is striking.

Oh, please do tell me which Russian system(s) are capable of producing that ECM against that many missiles equipped with ECCM. You do realize how incredibly hard it is to already jam that sensor, right?
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      04-17-2018, 11:32 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
Have you been out-of-tune with what has been happening in Syria since Assad came into power? This isn't the first occurrence and this is definitely not the first time he has killed/injured innocent people. You could argue that collateral damage is normal in war and it is to a degree, but you do not consider what he's doing as normal. He has no regard for the slant of an area he is striking.

Oh, please do tell me which Russian system(s) are capable of producing that ECM against that many missiles equipped with ECCM. You do realize how incredibly hard it is to already jam that sensor, right?
Regardless of what kind of person Assad is.. the way our government should behave is to follow the rule of law.. this set an example and is the right approach to the truth and to a just punishment or ends

As far as jamming the sensor.. im no expert in EW system components but I'm confident if I were working on it given the internals of such a system and how it works that yes I could find a work around or to in incapacitate it
no system is invulnerable in my experience
either way its said the pantsir can knock it down even without jamming it into higher altitudes
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      04-17-2018, 11:40 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Regardless of what kind of person Assad is.. the way our government should behave is to follow the rule of law.. this set an example and is the right approach to the truth and to a just punishment or ends

As far as jamming the sensor.. im no expert in EW system components but I'm confident if I were working on it given the internals of such a system and how it works that yes I could find a work around or to in incapacitate it
no system is invulnerable in my experience
either way its said the pantsir can knock it down even without jamming it into higher altitudes
That is the issue of conservatism (No, I am not saying Conservatives with a capital "C"). People fail to ever inspect a law or rule and say: "Is this the best way to implement this?". They say, this is the law and you must abide by it. NO CHANGES. If we obeyed every law and turned against what is generally considered the moral thing to do, the world would be in more chaos.

Well, I'm here to tell you that I analyzed air systems for years in addition to the ME. You're right, nothing is invulnerable, but EW is crazy complicated. The concept of EW is simple: overpower the receiver and you win, right? If we're talking about the SA-2, sure. You have to quite literally look at how the missile works and THEN look at the ECM and ECCM modules. You are right to say that the Pantsir is effective against BM/CM, but unless Russia is looking at a 1:1 or maybe a 3:1 ratio, the effectiveness rate of jamming them and then shooting them down is extremely low. Understand that I'm not saying that they didn't shoot any down, but arguing that it's not just a simple point and click.
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      04-17-2018, 11:52 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
That is the issue of conservatism (No, I am not saying Conservatives with a capital "C"). People fail to ever inspect a law or rule and say: "Is this the best way to implement this?". They say, this is the law and you must abide by it. NO CHANGES. If we obeyed every law and turned against what is generally considered the moral thing to do, the world would be in more chaos.

Well, I'm here to tell you that I analyzed air systems for years in addition to the ME. You're right, nothing is invulnerable, but EW is crazy complicated. The concept of EW is simple: overpower the receiver and you win, right? If we're talking about the SA-2, sure. You have to quite literally look at how the missile works and THEN look at the ECM and ECCM modules. You are right to say that the Pantsir is effective against BM/CM, but unless Russia is looking at a 1:1 or maybe a 3:1 ratio, the effectiveness rate of jamming them and then shooting them down is extremely low. Understand that I'm not saying that they didn't shoot any down, but arguing that it's not just a simple point and click.
Well if everyone thought that way then fairness is out the door and we ahve a free-for-all
which is EXACTLY what we have at the global stage.. its might-makes-right
rule of law in the global stage is a farce and cover
it may work as long as you are top dog but noone stay top dog forever
no human.. no nation .. and payback gets to be a bitch
also foundings fathers: no foreign entanglements.. wtf we doing in Syria

I understand the complexity and it also the same reason why I've stated no ABM system is good enough (esp since ABM imo needs to be 100% effective) it not easy to get anything to work 100% successfully and we have all these ABM/EW systems w/ myriads of components of which any can fail its job not to mention likely environmental factors etc which may introduce input skews
even so like you said I'd be really surprised if they really did hit 70%
but again I really wish I knew what really happened

then of course there is the other aspect of it which is would the Russians play their cards against this raid?
perhaps they have their best hardware held back playing their cards close to their chest
I've always seen this as a cat and mouse.. us trying to see what their EW and anti-missile capabilities were and they trying to use as little as they can to detect our signatures
Syria is of course the testfield for their gear on both sides.. which is not reassuring as to where we are going
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      04-17-2018, 12:43 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Well if everyone thought that way then fairness is out the door and we ahve a free-for-all
which is EXACTLY what we have at the global stage.. its might-makes-right
rule of law in the global stage is a farce and cover
it may work as long as you are top dog but noone stay top dog forever
no human.. no nation .. and payback gets to be a bitch
also foundings fathers: no foreign entanglements.. wtf we doing in Syria
Slippery slope logic at its best. So let me get this straight, you're okay with a country murdering innocent civilians and going against the Geneva Convention? With your logic, let me jump in and apply that: We should've stayed out of WW1 and WW2. NO FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENT. ONLY WORRY ABOUT AMERICA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
I understand the complexity and it also the same reason why I've stated no ABM system is good enough (esp since ABM imo needs to be 100% effective) it not easy to get anything to work 100% successfully and we have all these ABM/EW systems w/ myriads of components of which any can fail its job not to mention likely environmental factors etc which may introduce input skews
even so like you said I'd be really surprised if they really did hit 70%
but again I really wish I knew what really happened

then of course there is the other aspect of it which is would the Russians play their cards against this raid?
perhaps they have their best hardware held back playing their cards close to their chest
I've always seen this as a cat and mouse.. us trying to see what their EW and anti-missile capabilities were and they trying to use as little as they can to detect our signatures
Syria is of course the testfield for their gear on both sides.. which is not reassuring as to where we are going
Have you taken a look at imagery lately? If you look at the sites, they are pummeled quite hard. If Russia has their best systems in there, then I would suspect some engineers will be dead by the end of the day, if not already. Furthermore, your point of environmental factors further proves my point of how difficult is to jam such a system. We don't need them to test it in Syria to know how they work.
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      04-17-2018, 01:02 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
Slippery slope logic at its best. So let me get this straight, you're okay with a country murdering innocent civilians and going against the Geneva Convention? With your logic, let me jump in and apply that: We should've stayed out of WW1 and WW2. NO FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENT. ONLY WORRY ABOUT AMERICA.

Have you taken a look at imagery lately? If you look at the sites, they are pummeled quite hard. If Russia has their best systems in there, then I would suspect some engineers will be dead by the end of the day, if not already. Furthermore, your point of environmental factors further proves my point of how difficult is to jam such a system. We don't need them to test it in Syria to know how they work.
POINT: investigation is needed before any action taken
..I dont think there is anything irrational about that.. its how the justice system works (or used to)

As far as governments killing civilians.. it is their right to rise up against their governments as ours did here over 200 years ago.
Their people need to decide.. not some neocon in DC.
We can help as the French helped in our revolution.. they didnt start the conflict.. our founding fathers did.


The sites are toast.. how many Tomahawks made it? I'd like to kno
We didnt target Russian bases where they likely ringfence with their best hardware.
Its not unusual to test new hardware & processes in remote minor conflicts.
history is replete with such examples..
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      04-17-2018, 01:13 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
POINT: investigation is needed before any action taken
..I dont think there is anything irrational about that.. its how the justice system works (or used to)

As far as governments killing civilians.. it is their right to rise up against their governments as ours did here over 200 years ago.
Their people need to decide.. not some neocon in DC.
We can help as the French helped in our revolution.. they didnt start the conflict.. our founding fathers did.


The sites are toast.. how many Tomahawks made it? I'd like to kno
We didnt target Russian bases where they likely ringfence with their best hardware.
Its not unusual to test new hardware & processes in remote minor conflicts.
history is replete with such examples..
You literally have no idea how international relations work. There is irrefutable proof of the atrocities committed by Assad. The evidence was presented and has been constantly presented over the years. Furthermore, you really do not understand ethics. Not every single civilian picks up a gun to fight. It is not a crime to speak out against a government (Well, it shouldn't be). But that's okay, with your statement, you are asserting that it should be okay to kill unarmed civilians who were unconfirmed to be apart of the rebellion. Nice!

You can easily approximate that the number that made it, if you go look at the imagery. Based off it so far, it appears the Russians/Syrians were sleeping.
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      04-17-2018, 01:25 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
Slippery slope logic at its best. So let me get this straight, you're okay with a country murdering innocent civilians and going against the Geneva Convention? With your logic, let me jump in and apply that: We should've stayed out of WW1 and WW2. NO FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENT. ONLY WORRY ABOUT AMERICA.



Have you taken a look at imagery lately? If you look at the sites, they are pummeled quite hard. If Russia has their best systems in there, then I would suspect some engineers will be dead by the end of the day, if not already. Furthermore, your point of environmental factors further proves my point of how difficult is to jam such a system. We don't need them to test it in Syria to know how they work.
US Navy fooled Russia and Syria with a warship ruse before the strike ...
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-na...ip-ruse-before...
When the Syria strike happened, the destroyer that everyone was watching didn't fire a shot.
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      04-17-2018, 01:26 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
US Navy fooled Russia and Syria with a warship ruse before the strike ...
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-na...ip-ruse-before...
When the Syria strike happened, the destroyer that everyone was watching didn't fire a shot.
But... but... I thought the Russians were smart and proficient?
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      04-17-2018, 01:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
You literally have no idea how international relations work. There is unrefutable proof of the atrocities committed by Assad. The evidence was presented and has been constantly presented over the years. Furthermore, you really do not understand ethics. Not every single civilian picks up a gun to fight. It is not a crime to speak out against a government (Well, it shouldn't be). But that's okay, with your statement, you are asserting that it should be okay to kill unarmed civilians who were unconfirmed to be apart of the rebellion. Nice!

You can easily approximate that the number that made it, if you go look at the imagery. Based off it so far, it appears the Russians/Syrians were sleeping.
Its just curiousity how many hit.
The point again is they shouldve NEVER been launched.
DUE PROCESS remember?
Maybe one day you will be accused and processed w/o due process..
it happens in other countries.. wanna try your hand and live in a 3rd world country w/o due process? I hope you got enough money to bribe the judge..

Theres been many more "atrocities" in Africa.
Wheres the US intervention there to stop them?
This concern over humanitarianism is pick-and-choose it seems isnt it?
Its just neocon cover.. wake up and smell the coffee.. numerous others have in this country.. the neocon agenda is no secret its documented..dont be a sucker to the end.

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      04-17-2018, 01:32 PM   #106
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Why I'm not as afraid of the russians as insanecoder:
Their copy of the Tomahawk has trouble even making it to the target!


How Russia fired missiles at Syria from 1,000 miles away
In October of 2015, according to Russian media reports, about 26 3M14T land-attack cruise missiles were launched from Russian naval vessels in the Caspian Sea against 11 targets in Syria. The missiles are designed to penetrate air defenses of stationary ground targets such as administrative and economic centers, weapon and petrochemical storage areas, command posts, seaports and airports. This event represents the first recorded operational use of the 3M14T missile. Reports suggest that four missiles crashed in Iran en route.
WAPO 10-23-15
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      04-17-2018, 01:38 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Its just curiousity how many hit.
The point again is they shouldve NEVER been launched.
DUE PROCESS remember?
Maybe one day you will be accused and processed w/o due process..
it happens in other countries.. wanna try your hand and live in a 3rd world country w/o due process? I hope you got enough money to bribe the judge..

Theres been many more "atrocities" in Africa.
Wheres the US intervention there to stop them?
This concern over humanitarianism is pick-and-choose it seems isnt it?
Its just neocon cover.. wake up and smell the coffee.. numerous others have in this country.. the neocon agenda is no secret its documented..dont be a sucker to the end.[/url]
You must be trolling, too, right? You understand that IR is much, much different. You cannot compare country laws to international laws. That's illogical.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, here we are with another classic obfuscation (I just love this word and how it applies to every statement posted by George and Insane. Thanks, Dodger.) Can you tell me what all the US is doing in Africa? I can tell you, but I'd love to hear your knowledge on this.
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      04-17-2018, 01:39 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Why I'm not as afraid of the russians as insanecoder:
Their copy of the Tomahawk has trouble even making it to the target!


How Russia fired missiles at Syria from 1,000 miles away
In October of 2015, according to Russian media reports, about 26 3M14T land-attack cruise missiles were launched from Russian naval vessels in the Caspian Sea against 11 targets in Syria. The missiles are designed to penetrate air defenses of stationary ground targets such as administrative and economic centers, weapon and petrochemical storage areas, command posts, seaports and airports. This event represents the first recorded operational use of the 3M14T missile. Reports suggest that four missiles crashed in Iran en route.
WAPO 10-23-15
It's okay, the tried-and-true array of U.S. precision weapons suck!
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      04-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #109
insanecoder
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Originally Posted by BunkerJ View Post
You must be trolling, too, right? You understand that IR is much, much different. You cannot compare country laws to international laws. That's illogical.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, here we are with another classic obfuscation (I just love this word and how it applies to every statement posted by George and Insane. Thanks, Dodger.) Can you tell me what all the US is doing in Africa? I can tell you, but I'd love to hear your knowledge on this.
Illogical? To apply our most honorable system and standards towards the outside world is illogical..ok. Why not just run around and destroy 7 countries in 5 years then? Sounds barbarically logical.

Yer starting to breakdown Bunkerj.. I'm going to have to assign a sheeple#
and maybe a neocon ID as well.
Had some hope for ya but hopes gone..
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      04-17-2018, 02:04 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Illogical? To apply our most honorable system and standards towards the outside world is illogical..ok. Why not just run around and destroy 7 countries in 5 years then? Sounds barbarically logical.

Yer starting to breakdown Bunkerj.. I'm going to have to assign a sheeple#
and maybe a neocon ID as well.

Had some hope for ya but hopes gone..
And your assigning a sheeple# and neocon ID is important to whom?
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