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      05-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #1
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235/40r18 Front Rubbing with stock suspension

So I recently put on a set of Apex EC-7's 18x8.5 front and 18x9.5 rear.
On said wheels I mounted MPS4S's in 235/40 front and 255/35 rear. These were the recommended tire sizes for a 135 with these wheels from Apex (actually they said 265 rear, but 255 would work).

Anyway, I'm getting rubbing in the front when I hit moderate bumps.

My car is still on stock suspension, so I was not expecting this rubbing. Could it be just a worn/sagging suspension that's causing it? My car is a 2012 with 80k miles, and I feel like my suspension may have gotten soft.

Is it likely that it's just a soft suspension that needs replacing?
I'm a little worried because I plan on upgrading my suspension soon and my concern is that any drop might exacerbate the rubbing (or maybe not, if it's firm enough compared to my current aging setup.

Thoughts? Advice?
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      05-21-2018, 03:58 AM   #2
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Have a look at the tabs at the front of the fender panel where it joins to the bumper. That is normally the first place to get rubbing under compression. I believe its possible to grind then down a bit to gain more clearance. More negative front camber is likely to help as well.
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      05-21-2018, 08:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
Have a look at the tabs at the front of the fender panel where it joins to the bumper. That is normally the first place to get rubbing under compression. I believe its possible to grind then down a bit to gain more clearance. More negative front camber is likely to help as well.
Thanks. I'll check that out this afternoon.
I'm pretty well versed on tuning and engine performance parts, but I am a relative novice when it comes to suspension and suspension modifications.

Part of my planned upgrade is the M3 front control arms, which I understand add a small amount of negative camber, so I am hoping that helps without getting too aggressive on the camber for daily street driving (this is my DD, not a track car).

My planned drop is pretty modest, as I am planning to use the BMW performance springs (from the now-unavailable BMW PS).
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      05-21-2018, 08:54 AM   #4
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What offset in the front, 45? That should do well, it's the size of my Arc-8's with 235 tires and I don't have any issues at all and I would say most people don't.

Blown struts would be a possibility, if they are indeed blown you will lose about 1/2" or so ride height because of the lack of gas charge, and also be a little more subject to bottoming out or getting close to it over bumps.
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      05-21-2018, 09:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
What offset in the front, 45? That should do well, it's the size of my Arc-8's with 235 tires and I don't have any issues at all and I would say most people don't.

Blown struts would be a possibility, if they are indeed blown you will lose about 1/2" or so ride height because of the lack of gas charge, and also be a little more subject to bottoming out or getting close to it over bumps.
Yes, ET45. I had read there should be no issues, which is why I am wondering about the suspension. It's hard to tell if my suspension is worn, because I DD the car, so it would have been a slow degradation over time, and hard to notice. Kinda like the frog in boiling water.

That said, lately I feel like it is softer and mushier that I recall it being "back in the day". Like I said, 80k miles and six years of hard street driving (on shitty New England pothole-laden roads) has probably taken its toll.
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      05-21-2018, 09:15 AM   #6
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No doubt at 80K they're essentially done.

That said it's pretty easy to tell if they're "blown"- two most common symptoms are the squish sound going over speed bumps indicating air in the damper, or fluid on the strut body and maybe other places depending on how bad it got. If you ever go over sandy places you can see oily sand stuck to the body also.
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      05-21-2018, 09:45 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
Have a look at the tabs at the front of the fender panel where it joins to the bumper. That is normally the first place to get rubbing under compression. I believe its possible to grind then down a bit to gain more clearance. More negative front camber is likely to help as well.
Thanks. I'll check that out this afternoon.
I'm pretty well versed on tuning and engine performance parts, but I am a relative novice when it comes to suspension and suspension modifications.

Part of my planned upgrade is the M3 front control arms, which I understand add a small amount of negative camber, so I am hoping that helps without getting too aggressive on the camber for daily street driving (this is my DD, not a track car).

My planned drop is pretty modest, as I am planning to use the BMW performance springs (from the now-unavailable BMW PS).
They will add camber, but will do it by pushing the whole wheel further out, which will make it worse.

You need to add camber by moving the upper strut mounts further in, which means camber plates.
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      05-21-2018, 11:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
They will add camber, but will do it by pushing the whole wheel further out, which will make it worse.

You need to add camber by moving the upper strut mounts further in, which means camber plates.
Hmm. In theory I shouldn't need camber plates with this setup - that's one of the reasons I went with it. I'd like to avoid them, if possible.

I'll just have to see how it does once I get new shocks and springs.
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      05-21-2018, 11:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
They will add camber, but will do it by pushing the whole wheel further out, which will make it worse.

You need to add camber by moving the upper strut mounts further in, which means camber plates.
Hmm. In theory I shouldn't need camber plates with this setup - that's one of the reasons I went with it. I'd like to avoid them, if possible.

I'll just have to see how it does once I get new shocks and springs.
Strange, when I ordered my Apex wheels, they said camber increase required. I went with 245/35 instead of 235/40 because they are a better fit diameter wise. With Dinan plates and M3 arms, have never had a rubbing issue.
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      05-21-2018, 11:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Strange, when I ordered my Apex wheels, they said camber increase required. I went with 245/35 instead of 235/40 because they are a better fit diameter wise. With Dinan plates and M3 arms, have never had a rubbing issue.
The following are quotes from an Apex rep (I was inquiring about fitment with some proposed suspension kits):

"235/40-18 and 265/35-18 tires will be a direct fit with no additional modifications required. These are actually our recommended sizes for the E82 on the 8.5/9.5 wheels."

"No fitment issues and no additional modifications required with the 18x8.5" ET45 front and 18x9.5" ET58 rear wheels with the BMW Performance suspension and performance summer tires like the ones you mentioned."

"No spacers or modifications would be required with the Bilstein spring/shock upgrades. It's not typically the ride height that causes clearance issues, but the width of the shock/collar setup with certain coilovers like KW, Öhlins, etc."


Now to be clear, I am not blaming Apex for bad info (yet), because I suspect my suspension being worn and saggy as the actual culprit.

MightyMouse: You're running 245 up front? what is your suspension setup? Because I'd rather go 145 too, when these need replacing, but I want to make sure they'll fit without a fender roll (with a lower aspect ratio - unfortunately MPS4S are only available with a 40 on the 235 width). Also I plan to put 265 rear when these 255's wear out. The 255 is pretty stretched right now.
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      05-21-2018, 12:06 PM   #11
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https://support.apexraceparts.com/hc...-Fitment-Guide

I have the same setup except I have ARC-8 instead of EC-7. You shouldn't need camber plates with 235's. 245's is when you would need to start adding camber. My guess would be to check the struts first and go from there.
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      05-21-2018, 12:45 PM   #12
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So I just went out to my car and inspected it as best I could with it on the ground and wheels on. The right strut is definitely shot (maybe the left too, but not as bad).
There is no evidence of fluid on it (it could be long gone), but the easiest metric is this: On the left (good/better) side, I can slide my hand in between the top of the tire and the apex of the fender arc back to the rear meatier portion of my hand. On the right (bad) side, I can't get past my fingers.

So clearly, there is significantly less clearance on the right where they should be the same.

Inspection of the tire shows that the part that is rubbing isn't even the tread, but more like the shoulder half an inch or so outboard of the tread. And it is rubbing just inside the fender lip.

It also looks like the upper part of the strut (the orange part, which I believe to be a boot, anyway), where it disappears up into the body, is more recessed than on the other side, suggesting greater compression to me.

So, at least initially, it seems my problem is solved. I guess I need to accelerate my suspension upgrade timeline.

Thanks, guys! Further input still appreciated.
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      05-21-2018, 01:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pharaoh View Post
https://support.apexraceparts.com/hc...-Fitment-Guide

I have the same setup except I have ARC-8 instead of EC-7. You shouldn't need camber plates with 235's. 245's is when you would need to start adding camber. My guess would be to check the struts first and go from there.
Do you find that from a visual standpoint, the 235/40 looks a tad too meaty? I wish they made a 235/35 (Michelin). They only do 35 when you move up to 245.
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      05-22-2018, 06:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
They will add camber, but will do it by pushing the whole wheel further out, which will make it worse.

You need to add camber by moving the upper strut mounts further in, which means camber plates.
Hmm. In theory I shouldn't need camber plates with this setup - that's one of the reasons I went with it. I'd like to avoid them, if possible.

I'll just have to see how it does once I get new shocks and springs.
If you are replacing the front struts, throw in a set of Dinan plates at the same time. Our cars have woefully inadequate front camber for any kind of handling. It is surprising how bad they are from the factory.
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      05-22-2018, 12:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Do you find that from a visual standpoint, the 235/40 looks a tad too meaty? I wish they made a 235/35 (Michelin). They only do 35 when you move up to 245.
It all depends on your taste I suppose. I think the the 40 looks just right at the ride height I'm at. If I were higher with the top of the tire more visible, I could see the 40 looking just a little bit on the meaty side. The PS4S have a more square shaped edge rather than a shouldered/rounded edge. I think this plays a role in how meaty they look too.

Once I upgrade to MCS's, GC camber plates, and my current PS4S go bald, I will most likely go wider in the front and rear and be able to make a good comparison.
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