Dinan Camber Plates - Track/DD Alignment

[519.E82]

Hello, for all others like me I have a 2008 128i sport, with stock suspension and now Dinan camber plates. This is my first and only suspension mod as im starting to plan my first track day this year with some friends, and basically have read they are a necessity. I was wondering if anyone has an ideal alignment for this setup? Car will be a summer only DD/occasional track car.

Thank you.

Ps. Yes I know other alignment threads but most also have other suspension bits that I do not and was looking for input more specific.

[The Wind Breezes]

There is no such thing as a track / DD alignment. They are competing opposites.

Put the front at whatever you feel comfortable with tire-wear wise and consider reducing rear neg camber. This will put your ratios closer together for more "fun" handling and less tire-wear impact for a car that barely sees the track. Stock the car has a lot more rear neg camber than front to induce understeer. Typical for street cars cuz liability.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

There is no such thing as a track / DD alignment. They are competing opposites.

Put the front at whatever you feel comfortable with tire-wear wise and consider reducing rear neg camber. This will put your ratios closer together for more "fun" handling and less tire-wear impact for a car that barely sees the track. Stock the car has a lot more rear neg camber than front to induce understeer. Typical for street cars cuz liability.

I would disagree.

Front camber, you are going to get what you get. Rear camber I would set it around -1.75, and as little toe in as you can and still stay within factory specs, it will be very close to zero, but not quite zero. Then set front to zero toe.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does.

I run similar specs on my own, but run -2.2 in the rear, as I also have M3 arms which makes my front camber -2.0. I run zero toe in front, and just a hint of toe in, in the rear, 0.04 deg. It wanders a bit on ruts, but handles well, and I still get perfectly even tire wear.

FYI, I am a BMW alignment tech.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I would disagree.

Front camber, you are going to get what you get. Rear camber I would set it around -1.75, and as little toe in as you can and still stay within factory specs, it will be very close to zero, but not quite zero. Then set front to zero toe.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does.

I run similar specs on my own, but run -2.2 in the rear, as I also have M3 arms which makes my front camber -2.0. I run zero toe in front, and just a hint of toe in, in the rear, 0.04 deg. It wanders a bit on ruts, but handles well, and I still get perfectly even tire wear.

FYI, I am a BMW alignment tech.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part. however, you will not get even tire wear on the street with camber, It's impossible. Camber literally means the car is rolling on the inside edge of the tire. Once you start getting above `1.5* of camber on the street you will see more inside shoulder wear unless you do a lot of track driving to even out the wear from cornering loads.

that is why he is saying alignments are a compromise. What's good for cornering (camber) is not good for driving in straight lines on the street. What's good for turn-in/agility (toe-out) is not good for stability on uneven street roads.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I agree with what you're saying for the most part. however, you will not get even tire wear on the street with camber, It's impossible. Camber literally means the car is rolling on the inside edge of the tire. Once you start getting above `1.5* of camber on the street you will see more inside shoulder wear unless you do a lot of track driving to even out the wear from cornering loads.

that is why he is saying alignments are a compromise. What's good for cornering (camber) is not good for driving in straight lines on the street. What's good for turn-in/agility (toe-out) is not good for stability on uneven street roads.

I am at -2.2 rear, -2.0 front. Tire wear is even. Have only been on track for a half day with these tires. With camber, you are more on the inside edge, with toe, you are literally dragging the tire sideways down the road. Toe is 100x worse than moderate camber.

A little toe in puts more wear on the outside edge of the tire. Toe out tends to wear the inside edge of the tire. If you combine camber and toe out, you will kill the inside edge in no time on the street.

[519.E82]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

There is no such thing as a track / DD alignment. They are competing opposites.

Clearly we have different commutes to work

[519.E82]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I would disagree.

Front camber, you are going to get what you get. Rear camber I would set it around -1.75, and as little toe in as you can and still stay within factory specs, it will be very close to zero, but not quite zero. Then set front to zero toe.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does.

I run similar specs on my own, but run -2.2 in the rear, as I also have M3 arms which makes my front camber -2.0. I run zero toe in front, and just a hint of toe in, in the rear, 0.04 deg. It wanders a bit on ruts, but handles well, and I still get perfectly even tire wear.

FYI, I am a BMW alignment tech.

Appreciate that, so Front Camber: as negative as i can (i think between -2 - -2.25 or so), Toe: I though I read some say its best to have a tad of toe in or else its a bit of a handful on straights? Rear camber a bit of negative camber and low side of factory spec.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

Appreciate that, so Front Camber: as negative as i can (i think between -2 - -2.25 or so), Toe: I though I read some say its best to have a tad of toe in or else its a bit of a handful on straights? Rear camber a bit of negative camber and low side of factory spec.

Probably won't get that much camber on the front. The Dinan plates are not adjustable. You just bolt them on and you get what you get. You will be lucky to get -1.5-1.75.

If you are worried about straight line stability, adding a little front toe in can help.

[519.E82]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Probably won't get that much camber on the front. The Dinan plates are not adjustable. You just bolt them on and you get what you get. You will be lucky to get -1.5-1.75.

Okay so if my alignment is currently perfect, and i just install the plates and make no adjustments would that be bad? I know alignment order is typically Caster, Camber, Toe: should i expect toe to be out (out of place) then?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

Okay so if my alignment is currently perfect, and i just install the plates and make no adjustments would that be bad? I know alignment order is typically Caster, Camber, Toe: should i expect toe to be out (out of place) then?

As you change the camber, the toe will significantly change. It will require an alignment afterwards for sure.

[The Wind Breezes]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

Clearly we have different commutes to work

No, we have different experience levels and you overestimate how hard you actually drive on the street. Your commute to work is not as hard on the car as you think. If you are driving hard enough to properly wear your tires with a track alignment on your commute that won't last very long before you get arrested or wreck.

[dtla1]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

Hello, for all others like me I have a 2008 128i sport, with stock suspension and now Dinan camber plates. This is my first and only suspension mod as im starting to plan my first track day this year with some friends, and basically have read they are a necessity. I was wondering if anyone has an ideal alignment for this setup? Car will be a summer only DD/occasional track car.

Thank you.

Ps. Yes I know other alignment threads but most also have other suspension bits that I do not and was looking for input more specific.

You didn't mention it, but remove the pins on the strut mounts to get a tiny bit more adjustability.

[519.E82]

Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes

No, we have different experience levels and you overestimate how hard you actually drive on the street. Your commute to work is not as hard on the car as you think. If you are driving hard enough to properly wear your tires with a track alignment on your commute that won't last very long before you get arrested or wreck.

You're right its not right neck and neck as one the track. But i think you also underestimate driving perfect twisty roads for your entire life and twice a day for the last 4 years. I know the streets like the back of my hand and having put the car to the test, i know what its like when its loosing traction and grip so yes, im very comfortable and confident with it.

Edit:Street racing is not a joke, like my original response was. as far as i'm concerned as long as the alignment is better for wear on a track and is safely drive able on the street i am happy.

[asbrr]

I have Dinan camber plates, you can get around -1.9 at the front when maxed out. There is a tiny bit of adjustment because the alignment pins need to be cut off the strut mounts at the front when you install Dinan plates....but it's a small range so you do in essence "get what you get" - within like 0.25 degrees.

Rear has more room, I've been running -2 and it's fine on the street.

PS: This is with a Bilstein B12 kit.

[chris_flies]

I'm on Eibach Pro-Kit springs, Dinan plates, and M arms. I can get a maximum -3.5* camber on the front left and -2.5* on the front right. Right now, I have it at -2.5*. fe1rx points out in his Ohlins thread, that, on a radial tire, every degree of negative camber should be met with .1 degree of toe-out to counteract the steering effect the camber introduces. That said, I've got .2 degrees of toe-out to match my -2.5 degrees of camber. The front feels very capable and stable, and my tire wear at my last track day was perfectly even. In the rear I'm running -1.7 degrees of camber and zero toe because you want the toe-in effect for stability reasons. It's very stable, but it's responsive at the same time. The car was rotating beautifully at the track, and feels amazingly capable on the street. I've got a set of Ohlins on the way, and that's going to tie-together my suspension for now...

Edit: This is my new track season alignment. Once we get back to winter *sigh*, I'll zero the toe up front for tire wear reasons (I won't be cornering in nearly the same manner). Without M front arms, you'll probably be able to get a maximum of -2 degrees of camber up front (the arms generally add about -.5 degrees). You could use a rat tail file to extend the strut mount holes inwards to give you more. Our cars don't have the weak strut towers that earlier BMW's have, but you wouldn't want to go too crazy.

[Olgeezer1]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I would disagree.

Front camber, you are going to get what you get. Rear camber I would set it around -1.75, and as little toe in as you can and still stay within factory specs, it will be very close to zero, but not quite zero. Then set front to zero toe.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does.

I run similar specs on my own, but run -2.2 in the rear, as I also have M3 arms which makes my front camber -2.0. I run zero toe in front, and just a hint of toe in, in the rear, 0.04 deg. It wanders a bit on ruts, but handles well, and I still get perfectly even tire wear.

FYI, I am a BMW alignment tech.

Pretty similar results . MY car is similar to OP's. Currently -1.5 camber front and rear, 0 toe in front, slight toe-in in rear. Even tire wear, tracks perfectly straight. May increase front camber slightly to about -1.75, about max. with Dinan plates, when I come out of storage.

[Suhb]

Chiming in as I experimented with a lot of alignment set ups. Currently running 2 degrees of camber front and rear. I get pretty even wear throughout the life of the tires. As little toe in as possible while still being with bmw recommended specs on both front and rear.

I tried 0 toe up front, car felt nimble but unstable especially over road imperfections at high speed and braking. The compliance of the bushings forces toe out and the car wants to wander.

[519.E82]

I did an alignment today, I will update my build thread with everything hopefully today or tomorrow. Which i will link when posted. Those who said you can't get over -2 of camber are definitely wrong.

Edit: screw it ill update here in a different manner than build thread.

FL Camber: -2.09
FR Camber: -2.62 (left the 0.5 variance for road crown as its still a summer daily)

FL Toe: 0.12
FR toe: 0.11

I did not make any camber adjustments today only did toe as i was happy with where the camber was.

After installing the plates an alignment was definitely required, as my toe originally was
FL: -0.31
FR: -0.43

[AndyW]

-2.2 front. -2.0 rear. Dinan plates, swift spec R springs.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

I did an alignment today, I will update my build thread with everything hopefully today or tomorrow. Which i will link when posted. Those who said you can't get over -2 of camber are definitely wrong.

Edit: screw it ill update here in a different manner than build thread.

FL Camber: -2.09
FR Camber: -2.62 (left the 0.5 variance for road crown as its still a summer daily)

FL Toe: 0.12
FR toe: 0.11

I did not make any camber adjustments today only did toe as i was happy with where the camber was.

After installing the plates an alignment was definitely required, as my toe originally was
FL: -0.31
FR: -0.43

You got 2.6 in the front with just the plates? Damn, impressive. I'm no where near that with the plates and M3 arms.

[519.E82]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

You got 2.6 in the front with just the plates? Damn, impressive. I'm no where near that with the plates and M3 arms.

Weird, all we made sure on install was in the top hat, we made sure the strut was pushed all the way over towards the inside of the car.

[chris_flies]

Originally Posted by 519.E82

Weird, all we made sure on install was in the top hat, we made sure the strut was pushed all the way over towards the inside of the car.

I got -3.5 on the front left and -2.5 on the front right when maxed-out. I've got Dinan plates, M control arms, and Eibach Pro-Kit springs with Koni Yellows. I was surprised that I got so much out of it. Now both sides are set to 2.5 degrees and .2 degrees of toe-out. The front end feels absolutely amazing right now. On-center feel is smooth and light, and the steering feels more lively and light than it has before. It's amazing what happens when your tires are pointing the right directions...