BMW M1 / BMW 1M test mule spied in production testing form!!!

[Brandon26pdx]

Wow, this could be a performance buff's dream boat. I bet they'll start in the $46-48k range though

[bradford]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Late at night - and I was interrupted mid sentence by my wife. I meant a square setup will eliminate understeer.

Sure, but reducing grip in the rear is not the optimal way of reducing understeer.

First, you maximize tire patch, then you tune balance with spring rates and fine tune with sway bars.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by Brandon26pdx

Wow, this could be a performance buff's dream boat. I bet they'll start in the $46-48k range though

I don't think thats an outrageous amount of money given the performance. From what I understand, a current 135 is similar (stock) to an e46 m3. My e46 was $48k base when I bought it in '02.

Given that my e92 was more like $59 base, you know it will price below that and above the 135.

It seems fair to have a car with superior performance to the e46 M3 further supported by a more robust standard equipment offering sell for a price point around the e46 M3 9 years later.

[Brandon26pdx]

Oh, i know it's not an unreasonable price to ask at all for what it is/will be, especially considering a TT-S starts at $45,900, and a Cayman $51,400. These Euro sportsters are just steadily creeping beyond affordability even for the relatively well-off car guy, which is too bad. I guess if you want your socks knocked off for $30k you buy a Carmaro or a Mustang.

[E82tt6]

I too would prefer an NA motor. My 135 with catless DPs, 15.5PSI from a JB3, etc, could not hold a candle to my Z4MC in terms of fun to drive, or on a track. Even with RE-01Rs on the 1 compared to the stock Z tires, there is a WORLD of difference in cornering speed.

That said, I think BMW could do good things with the engine. More top end, ala GTR is the big thing. A proper sports car shouldn't lose power during the last 1500rpms of it's rev range.

I look forward to seeing a 1 with the "M" treatment, and I hope they pull off the motor. M cars do have a different feel that even a "properly" tuned non-M cannot match.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by bradford

Are you sure that's correct? I find it hard to believe that the M3 turns around 4000rpm at 80mph...

Yep, only the final gear ratios are different. It doesn't turn around 4000rpm at 80mph due to its larger wheels (circumference), though.


Best regards,
south

[billspreston]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I too would prefer an NA motor. My 135 with catless DPs, 15.5PSI from a JB3, etc, could not hold a candle to my Z4MC in terms of fun to drive, or on a track. Even with RE-01Rs on the 1 compared to the stock Z tires, there is a WORLD of difference in cornering speed.

I don't doubt the Z4M is more fun, but what on earth does the engine have to do with handling and cornering speed in this case?? Both cars weigh around the same with the Z4 having an M tuned chassis. That's your difference.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by billspreston

I don't doubt the Z4M is more fun, but what on earth does the engine have to do with handling and cornering speed in this case?? Both cars weigh around the same with the Z4 having an M tuned chassis. That's your difference.

I should have been more clear. I was speaking to M vs non-M in general, in addition to the engine. Even with a turbo engine, it'll be way more than just a tweaked 135.

The comparison to me 135 was just because that was the best car I had previously owned.

[billspreston]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I should have been more clear. I was speaking to M vs non-M in general, in addition to the engine. Even with a turbo engine, it'll be way more than just a tweaked 135.

The comparison to me 135 was just because that was the best car I had previously owned.

Having driven an M coupe & 135, I can't say I disagree with you so I'm glad you clarified I don't think the the Z4M is a better car just because it's has a naturally aspirated motor, however.

The 135 to M car comparisons are silly. A well tuned N54 might beat an M3 or Z4M in a straight line, but the M car clearly handles better and provides a better driving experience with stock suspension. I think M Gmbh will be able to provide a similar driving experience in a lighter weight platform regardless of the turbo motor in the M1. I'm confident the motor will be tuned and engineered to perform extremely well on the track.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by bradford

LOL. Yes, it absolutely will.

During the C&D Lightning Lap challenge, the M3 did a 3:05 at VIR and the 135i did 3:13. So, by modding the suspension, dampers, springs, sway bars, etc, your 135 will take 8 seconds off the stock time???

What people don't understand is that you change all of these things, but cars like the M are built and designed completely differently than cars that aren't made for the track. You can mod any car like a Supra to get 700hp, but they weren't designed for the track. The chassis, the engine weight ratio, the aerodynamics of the car are all taken into consideration which can't be duplicated with simple modding. That's the reason 911's weren't designed to have the most horsepower. I grew up around a track and I've seen tons of guys come in with heavily modded Mustangs only to get destroyed in the essess from a properly driven Miata.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by footie

The actual power to weight if the estimated weight and power is correct is roughly 235~240hp/ton, this is only 15~20hp/ton down on what you get with the M3 but it will have more Nm/ton than the M3 so all things considered I reckon the performance will be very close indeed.

There is little doubt that overall these two cars (1M and M3) are catering for different needs with the M3 aimed more towards the better allrounder as always while the smaller, lighter 1M being the more focused driver's car that will be better suited to the track and dynamic driving.

A perfect addition to the M family.

Sorry for the looong post.
I should have made 2 posts out of this, oh well, my bad.

IF, big IF, the M1 is a true M car, the "different needs" won't be so different.
It's not as if the intent of these 2 cars has the same difference as, let's say, an X3 and a Z4.
Both M models will cater and satisfy the need and want for a near-lux sport coupe that has excellent driving performance.

For some, it'll come down to owner perception of what "M3" stands for and what "M1" stands for. Those who will feel the M1 is a "baby M" will never buy one, just like some 3 series owners wouldn't consider a 1 series just because of perception that it's a "baby BMW".
For some, it'll come down to the cost difference between 2 automobiles that both offer a very high level of performance and driver satisfaction.
In that case, one will have to consider that the lower cost may come with less room, less interior styling detail, less overall "lux" appeal. That's the same thing between non M 1 and 3.

Take for example, the 1 series and 3 series. Most of us, as most buyers probably, test drove and considered a 335i compared to the 135i, as it satisfies our "needs".
I don't feel that the 3 is catering to a different need or different buyer. In terms of performance the 135i gives you what the 335i gives you, just at a lower cost, and you give up some space, and you give up some of the greater level of luxury of the 3 series. To digress, I do feel the 335i has a better sorted suspension that adds a bit greater sporting capability. But, overall the major differences are the size and the cost. Both models come with the same engines, same drive-trains, same option packages, etc...

Most owners feel the 135i is every bit as good as the 335i, but in a smaller, lower cost package. So, you get about the same performance in the 135i as you would in the 335i, except the 3 caters to the buyer who doesn't want the smaller, somewhat less "lux" 1 series. I guess that could be considered a "need" for some.

Taking that into account, it stands to reason that the M1 would do the same thing compared to the M3. It'll be a smaller, less "lux", lower cost M, that should give nearly the same performance. However, admittedly non of us knows the true performance of an M1 yet.
If the difference in performance is the same as it is between the 135i and the 335i, then the main difference to buyers, again, would be that the M1 will cost less, it'll be smaller, less lux feel, etc...

Another thing:
Reading other M1 threads, it's interesting that some 1 series owners feel the M3 will be superior to the M1, yet some of those same people would argue that the 135i doesn't give up anything to the 335i. Why the disparity in perception when discussing M versions?
Will the difference between the M1 and M3 be greater than the difference between the M3 and M5?

I also don't feel that BMW is worried that an M1 would take sales away from an M3. Offering an M car for less than the current crazy priced M3 could bring more overall sales.
The M1 will probably be equally higher priced from a 135i, as an M3 is higher priced from a 335i. This wont' be in equal dollars difference, but it will probably be in equal proportion percentage wise.
Meaning, if the M3 is priced 30% more than an equally optioned 335i, then an M1 will be 30% higher priced than an equally optioned 135i.

Simply, those who want an M3 will get an M3 regardless of the M1, and those who want the M1 will get that regardless of the M3.
But, for a large number of potential buyers, being able to get an M car for less than the current entry price, BMW has potentially greater sales.
But, that's the same thing that's been happening between the 1 and the 3, and that was reason for bringing the 1 series, to get people into a BMW.

For an interesting mental exercise, the bigger threat to sales could be, 335i sales.
Many would love to get an M3, but the cost has gone through the roof with the new-est M3, so many bought the 335i with it's excellent abilities.
If the M1 comes close to the current M3's abilities, some who couldn't get an M3, could probably swing the M1. But, a sale is a sale.
If those buyers go for the M1, 335i discounts could become even bigger.

[Alpin3_F30]

Originally Posted by RPM90

IF, big IF, the M1 is a true M car, the "different needs" won't be so different.
It's not as if the intent of these 2 cars has the same difference as, let's say, an X3 and a Z4.
Both M models will cater and satisfy the need and want for a near-lux sport coupe that has excellent driving performance.

For some, it'll come down to owner perception of what "M3" stands for and what "M1" stands for. Those who will feel the M1 is a "baby M" will never buy one, just like some 3 series owners wouldn't consider a 1 series just because of perception that it's a "baby BMW".
For some, it'll come down to the cost difference between 2 automobiles that both offer a very high level of performance and driver satisfaction.
In that case, one will have to consider that the lower cost may come with less room, less interior styling detail, less overall "lux" appeal. That's the same thing between non M 1 and 3.

Take for example, the 1 series and 3 series. Most of us, as most buyers probably, test drove and considered a 335i compared to the 135i, as it satisfies our "needs".
I don't feel that the 3 is catering to a different need or different buyer. In terms of performance the 135i gives you what the 335i gives you, just at a lower cost, and you give up some space, and you give up some of the greater level of luxury of the 3 series. To digress, I do feel the 335i has a better sorted suspension that adds a bit greater sporting capability. But, overall the major differences are the size and the cost. Both models come with the same engines, same drive-trains, same option packages, etc...

Most owners feel the 135i is every bit as good as the 335i, but in a smaller, lower cost package. So, you get about the same performance in the 135i as you would in the 335i, except the 3 caters to the buyer who doesn't want the smaller, somewhat less "lux" 1 series. I guess that could be considered a "need" for some.

Taking that into account, it stands to reason that the M1 would do the same thing compared to the M3. It'll be a smaller, less "lux", lower cost M, that should give nearly the same performance. However, admittedly non of us knows the true performance of an M1 yet.
If the difference in performance is the same as it is between the 135i and the 335i, then the main difference to buyers, again, would be that the M1 will cost less, it'll be smaller, less lux feel, etc...

Another thing:
Reading other M1 threads, it's interesting that some 1 series owners feel the M3 will be superior to the M1, yet some of those same people would argue that the 135i doesn't give up anything to the 335i. Why the disparity in perception when discussing M versions?
Will the difference between the M1 and M3 be greater than the difference between the M3 and M5?

I also don't feel that BMW is worried that an M1 would take sales away from an M3. Offering an M car for less than the current crazy priced M3 could bring more overall sales.
The M1 will probably be equally higher priced from a 135i, as an M3 is higher priced from a 335i. This wont' be in equal dollars difference, but it will probably be in equal proportion percentage wise.
Meaning, if the M3 is priced 30% more than an equally optioned 335i, then an M1 will be 30% higher priced than an equally optioned 135i.

Simply, those who want an M3 will get an M3 regardless of the M1, and those who want the M1 will get that regardless of the M3.
But, for a large number of potential buyers, being able to get an M car for less than the current entry price, BMW has potentially greater sales.
But, that's the same thing that's been happening between the 1 and the 3, and that was reason for bringing the 1 series, to get people into a BMW.

For an interesting mental exercise, the bigger threat to sales could be, 335i sales.
Many would love to get an M3, but the cost has gone through the roof with the new-est M3, so many bought the 335i with it's excellent abilities.
If the M1 comes close to the current M3's abilities, some who couldn't get an M3, could probably swing the M1. But, a sale is a sale.
If those buyers go for the M1, 335i discounts could become even bigger.

you said alot

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Guibo

I'm not saying the new M-tuned turbo won't be exciting. Nor am I saying that NA guarantees more involvement. But history has shown the most electric driving experiences for a driver's car come from NA power delivery. For this, you generally need high compression which is normally at odds with turbocharging, if you want to maintain reliability.

That USED to be the case. The resurgence in turbo's can be traced to the advent of 'direct injection', which allows for higher compression pistons to be used with turbo charging, resulting in the very odd, high level of torque at low rpm. Before direct injection, turbo's did have to use lower compression pistons due to the heat generated by compressing the intake charge.
That heat could easily result in detonation, so along knock sensors, lower compression pistons were needed. But, the power produced with the traditional turbo setup resulted in low rpm lag, but tremendous high rpm torque, which is where track racers/drivers want the power, as it gives better throttle response.

Traditional turbo's have low rpm lag, and many people didn't like the feel of that as most people drove them in daily driving commutes, where high rpm driving is rarely seen. But, driving a turbo, that generated it's power in the mid to high rpm range is a very thrilling experience.
Modern turbo design has addressed and to a great extent fixed the low rpm off the line lag with the advent of direct injection, higher compression pistons, and small, quick spooling turbos. This has made a turbo engine very workable for daily, low rpm driving, and many like it.
I miss the high rpm rush of a traditional large turbo setup.
What BMW could do with the M1 is to use modern valve control, direct injection, and LARGER twin scroll turbo's, which would give the hard off the line torque, but then smoothly transition to excellent mid and high rpm breathing and TORQUE that gives a great throttle response.
Modern drive by wire throttle can be tuned to give you any foot movement response you desire. Audi has "driver select" subsystems that give you that, so that the driver can adjust how the engine responds in relation to throttle/foot input.

The new N55 has great promise in my view, as it's combing a number of excellent technologies that have not been combined before, namely valvetronic to control engine breathing at various rpm, thus nearly eliminating 'pumping loss' and it's negative effects on throttle response.
Also, the valvetronic WITH a twinscroll turbo that incorporates what amounts to 'tuned headers' for a turbo, that further smooths the power band and allows for better breathing at high rpm. Then we have direct injection along with high compression pistons that allow for greater/higher psi and denser air charge, while controlling potential detonation as the direct injection gives excellent cooling in the combustion chamber with it's high pressure fuel spray. To get that spray there is a high pressure fuel pump that atomizes fuel like no carb or old gen injector ever could, and that also gives greater fuel efficiency.

The missing ingredient is a LARGER twinscroll turbo that will give greater flow at high/er rpm. Generally, larger turbo's would induce more lag due to increased mass, but, by it's method of operation a twinscroll nearly eliminates lag by using different exhaust flow paths. Along with the other technology I'm sure this could be tuned to have near 0 lag.
Still better yet, would be a sequential setup using a smaller, quick spooling twinscroll for low and mid rpm power along with a large standard, clipped turbo to give that BIG high rpm torque and rush!
I'm calling for a sequential turbo setup using a twinscroll turbo intake path that can transition to a single large, clipped turbo. That would be a "trick" high tech engine worthy of "M" designation.
Oh, and don't forget about a large FMIC to keep things nice and cool.

BMW, you can use this:
The whole is great, due to the sum of our parts!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Alpine325ci

you said alot

LOL.

I know. I'm bored.

You my want to get that hole looked at.

[Alpin3_F30]

Originally Posted by RPM90

LOL.

I know. I'm bored.

You my want to get that hole looked at.

Gata love these smilies lol

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by bradford

Are you sure that's correct? I find it hard to believe that the M3 turns around 4000rpm at 80mph...

It is correct. I have even checked the part #'s and they were the same.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Reading other M1 threads, it's interesting that some 1 series owners feel the M3 will be superior to the M1, yet some of those same people would argue that the 135i doesn't give up anything to the 335i. Why the disparity in perception when discussing M versions?

Because the 135i and 335i share the same engine. And because by virtue of its purpose to bring M-car performance at a lower cost, there will be more compromises made in the 1er. I will be very surprised if the N55 holds a candle to the M3's naturally aspirated engine with individual throttle bodies and 8400 rpm redline...
Also, this from the FAQ thread:
"It will be powerful to justify it's premium over the 135i but not to overstep the M3."
I'm not sure what mechanism BMW had in place to ensure that the 135i wouldn't overstep the 335i, but it didn't seem to work too well.
Is the high-revving NA hot version of the 1er still in the works? BMW like to invoke the image of the original 2002, yet the true heir has not yet surfaced. Meanwhile, it appears BMW is content to let the M3 get bloated to contend with its other marketplace rivals. So, maybe you can understand how performance enthusiasts, with their hopes pinned on the 1er, are a bit impatient with BMW not delivering on the marketing message, that the 1er is a legit return to enthusiast driving roots and not merely 3 Series Lite.

Thanks for the reminder about the technology at hand for the N55. I am already keeping that in mind in allowing that the new engine might be very involving and responsive. The 997.2 Turbo also has a load of technology thrown into its engine (VTG, direct injection). Yet I doubt very much its throttle response is as visceral as a GT3's.

[footie]

Until we know the direction the F30 M3 will take it is very hardly to understand fully where the 1M/M1 fits into the M line up. My belief is a car more on the character of the Cayman S in it's fine feel on the main controls and sweet balance on chassis but with a real characterful FI engine like what the TT-RS has.

If BMW just give us an M3 experience in a smaller package then in my opinion it would be a missed opportunity to do something a little different. After all the M3 feel different to the M5, it would be great to see a similar improvement in focus that the M3 has over the M5 to be present in the M1 compared to the M3.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Muffnbluff

I'm not sure you understand what twin scroll means...

If there are two turbos on an I6 engine, they can't be twin scroll because the exhaust pulses are already alternating between the two turbos.

The only way to really change the engine would be to make it sequential turbo. If they put bigger turbos on there people will bitch about lag, but that'd be the only way to make more power to redline without dropping off. And I doubt they'll have variable vane turbos like Porsche.

Or maybe since it's an N55 they can put slightly larger turbos on and still get similar boost response and spool.

You can actually have a sequential twinscroll, a smaller turbo and a larger turbo in the same housing - made by honeywell .

Also, look at the X5m/x6m engine. It's a twinscroll twin turbo, that's why may be a solution is a triplescroll, twin turbo. All very speculative.

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by sparoz

You can actually have a sequential twinscroll, a smaller turbo and a larger turbo in the same housing - made by honeywell .

Also, look at the X5m/x6m engine. It's a twinscroll twin turbo, that's why may be a solution is a triplescroll, twin turbo. All very speculative.

The triple scroll may be the solution. I have also heard of a high end diesel triple turbo being developed for the 5,6,7 series cars. I think this might be too expensive for the new M3 and M1 engine.

All of this is of course speculation, but an idea that fits what Scott has said and makes technical sense is to have 2 twinscroll turbos on the N55. 1 turbo is driven off cylinders 1-3 and the other 4-6 just like the N54.

It you use a twinscroll with different size scrolls at low rpm you would drive the small side of the twinscroll turbo, and then just like a sequential turbo set up, drive the larger side of the turbo at high rpm. You get the best of both worlds. Low rpm response and high rpm power. Relatively low cost too.

As most of us know the I-6 does not lend itself to the X5/6 type twinscroll twin turbo setup. This is because of how the exhaust differs between the 2 engines. I think the new M 1/3 engine could use a design similar to what I said above or something not too far from it. We will see.....

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Guibo

Because the 135i and 335i share the same engine. And because by virtue of its purpose to bring M-car performance at a lower cost, there will be more compromises made in the 1er. I will be very surprised if the N55 holds a candle to the M3's naturally aspirated engine with individual throttle bodies and 8400 rpm redline...
Also, this from the FAQ thread:
"It will be powerful to justify it's premium over the 135i but not to overstep the M3."
I'm not sure what mechanism BMW had in place to ensure that the 135i wouldn't overstep the 335i, but it didn't seem to work too well.
Is the high-revving NA hot version of the 1er still in the works? BMW like to invoke the image of the original 2002, yet the true heir has not yet surfaced. Meanwhile, it appears BMW is content to let the M3 get bloated to contend with its other marketplace rivals. So, maybe you can understand how performance enthusiasts, with their hopes pinned on the 1er, are a bit impatient with BMW not delivering on the marketing message, that the 1er is a legit return to enthusiast driving roots and not merely 3 Series Lite.

Thanks for the reminder about the technology at hand for the N55. I am already keeping that in mind in allowing that the new engine might be very involving and responsive. The 997.2 Turbo also has a load of technology thrown into its engine (VTG, direct injection). Yet I doubt very much its throttle response is as visceral as a GT3's.

But I do understand the mission of M, and it's not just about the engine, it's the whole package.

I still think the whole "not stepping" on the M3 thing is merely appeasement to some in the M commumity.
The M3 is the top 3 series. The M1 will be the top 1 series.
If the M3 crown is upset about it, too bad.
As I said, I still think the biggest impact the M1 could have is taking away 335i sales, as it'll be closer in price, and those that can't or don't want to swing M3 money can have something much closer for less, albeit sacrificing some minor luxury things. But, most enthusiasts are willing to forgo some of those.

I agree the 1 doesn't deliver the whole promise, the suspension being the real issue. But, by and large the 1 delivers amazing performance for the price point of a BMW.
Besides, when has marketing ever been done by engineers?
It's done to entice and gain interest in the hopes of selling units.
I think it did it's job quite well.

As far throttle response, that's just one factor in a long list of factors that affect a cars performance. We have yet to see and feel what has been done, or what can be done with the N55 and with it in the hands of the M division.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by Haywood

During the C&D Lightning Lap challenge, the M3 did a 3:05 at VIR and the 135i did 3:13. So, by modding the suspension, dampers, springs, sway bars, etc, your 135 will take 8 seconds off the stock time???

+ engine mods, proper brake pads and fluid, ditch the shite runflats, etc = absolutely. 8 seconds on a 3 minutes course is not really all that notable for a fully modded car that's set up right.