Another (Long) Pedal Box Review

[Freon]

Originally Posted by BMJ

you're a wanker... i have a tune i have an IC i have a PE... i used a pedal box so I can comment on it unlike you know it all wanker experts that just flap your mouths to feel like big men.. like said... any of you experts use one then come and say it shiit and no use.. if that the case cool but if you dont even use one and say it has no effect then WTF are you trying to prove?

that u know it all? I dont use the pedal box anymore cuz with a tune and other mods i have it makes the throttle to punchy...so like i said try it and report back or SHUT THE F^%K up!

not going to waste anymore time with you experts that know it all.. cuz i am just so small compared to your master know-all regarding mods...

You can get as mad as you want, curse, try to attack me personally, but you have to realize the analogy I was making. There's no way I'm going to blow $300 just to find out it doesn't do anything supernatural, because I already know enough about electronics to know the limits of what it cannot do. I'm also literate, so I can read their website.

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if you are interested. But maybe you'll just swear at me for asking. Grow up.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by BMJ

you're another MUPPET with your head up your ass

Originally Posted by BMJ

but to all the follower wankers that haven't used one and come and chime in with posts arguing they don't work, you deify logic in actually being able to afford a BMW (IQ reasons) (unless your trust fund bunny).

LOL, classy. I think we touched a nerve.

Originally Posted by BMJ

Peace out I'm done

You said once before you wouldn't waste any more time on this. Do you promise this time?

[Acheron83]

Lol, why did this thread have to go on for 3 pages? It should have been OP -> Proof of BS -> /thread

The PB works, it really does. The wiring it's plugged into is ONLY capable of transmitting a signal determining throttle input. The PB intercepts this signal and increases it before passing it onto the ECU. It does this and nothing else since there is no "path" to affect any other ECU parameter directly via that wiring. There is no need to own or use one of these to understand that it reduces physical pedal travel required for the same throttle input.

If you have a lazy throttle foot and want to piss money away on what amounts to a "right foot aid" then by all means go ahead, but let's not claim it's doing anything more than that

[alex_d_22]

I simply have mine set to the point where the throttle feels alot like a drive by cable system. Yes makes the throttle seem more sensitive due to the "increased signal" transmitted to the ECU via the PB.

I think that a drive-by-cable pedal feel is alot more responsive and direct compared to the stock drive by wire cars. This cannot be solved by your right foot, unfortunately.

Its exactly like "Sport Buttons" some cars have stock, if it was so easy to fix with your right foot, then why do most sports cars have this option? BECAUSE IT CANT BE SOLVED BY YOUR RIGHT FOOT!

[Stohlen]

Originally Posted by alex_d_22

Its exactly like "Sport Buttons" some cars have stock, if it was so easy to fix with your right foot, then why do most sports cars have this option? BECAUSE IT CANT BE SOLVED BY YOUR RIGHT FOOT!

Sport buttons are novelty items used to sell cars. Uneducated buyers see them, then think the car is better because of them, and then buy them...

Now the sport buttons that increase engine performance by allowing more boost for a small amount of time are a completely different story.

[kits135i]

Originally Posted by alex_d_22

I simply have mine set to the point where the throttle feels alot like a drive by cable system. Yes makes the throttle seem more sensitive due to the "increased signal" transmitted to the ECU via the PB.

I think that a drive-by-cable pedal feel is alot more responsive and direct compared to the stock drive by wire cars. This cannot be solved by your right foot, unfortunately.

Its exactly like "Sport Buttons" some cars have stock, if it was so easy to fix with your right foot, then why do most sports cars have this option? BECAUSE IT CANT BE SOLVED BY YOUR RIGHT FOOT!

This is not even in the same ball park of the conversation. The sport button is used to change your shift points higher, keep the rpm's up etc vs normal driving and saving some gas. How is that compared to pushing your foot further down on the pedal to make the car go faster?

[Freon]

Sport buttons are not the same. For instance, on the WRX STI, the lowest setting actually reduces boost at full throttle (only Sport and Sportsharp are "full boost"). No pedal box is increasing or decreasing boost at full throttle. That setting actually changes the boost control (there are literally multiple wastegate duty maps built into the ECU that switch over when you change the setting). The Pedalbox does not do this because it can't!

And as others have pointed out, a pedal box isn't changing shift points for AT/DCT transmissions, at least not any more than pushing the throttle down a bit more would affect them.

Nice try, but again, no. A pedal box is not the same as what the settings in the car are doing. A sport control built into the car could COMPLETELY remap the ECU when you flip those switches. A Pedalbox cannot!

Why is this so difficult to understand? Why do people who do not have basic understanding of electronics continue to chime in ignorantly on this subject?

[alex_d_22]

but im not talking about remapping the ECU and adding power or whatever you guys think Im on about. I never said the PB makes your car faster, or adds power. I did way that the engine responds better, and is much more enjoyable to drive when the engine responds to your foot actions instantly.

There are cars with no turbo and who are manual that have a sport button that claim to sharpen the throttle and do a couple other things (exhaust baffles, fiddle with suspension settings, add power, etc.) And they do sharpen the throttle and make the throttle more responsive (That was my point with the Sport button).

It amplifies the throttle signal, point blank. I get that, I also understand that. However, what people seem to have issues understanding that "Their right food can fix" cannot make the throttle sharper in terms of throttle response.

[Stohlen]

Originally Posted by alex_d_22

is much more enjoyable to drive when the engine responds to your foot actions instantly.

It amplifies the throttle signal, point blank. I get that, I also understand that. However, what people seem to have issues understanding that "Their right food can fix" cannot make the throttle sharper in terms of throttle response.

That bold part is where you're wrong. You will never feel the milliseconds difference that the pedal box is faster than your foot is when your foot is already moving... The pedal travel is too small and your ankle joint can accelerate too fast for you to physically notice any difference. Throttle response is only sharper when the engine reacts more quickly.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by alex_d_22

but im not talking about remapping the ECU and adding power or whatever you guys think Im on about. I never said the PB makes your car faster, or adds power. I did way that the engine responds better, and is much more enjoyable to drive when the engine responds to your foot actions instantly.

You said it is like the sport buttons on factory cars, which often do MUCH more than remap the throttle. Sport buttons can, in fact, remove baked in delays in the time dimension. Factory cars with an "eco" mode may LITERALLY delay the throttle opening after you press it down, or limit the slew rate (aka. angular velocity, ex. "3 degrees per second max throttle opening speed") of the throttle position. The Pedalbox, to my knowledge, has never claimed to nor been proven to actually warp spacetime. If the ECU is delaying the throttle movement or capping the rate at which it opens, again, there isn't much a pedal box-like device can do about it. Or more specifically and to the point, it couldn't do anything more than your foot could do!

There are cars with no turbo and who are manual that have a sport button that claim to sharpen the throttle and do a couple other things (exhaust baffles, fiddle with suspension settings, add power, etc.) And they do sharpen the throttle and make the throttle more responsive (That was my point with the Sport button).

It's much easier to state what this pedal box does (or can possibly do within limits of its electronics) than to compare it to a sport button then write several paragraphs of exceptions and qualifications of what a sport button can do that the pedal box cannot do. You're being VERY misleading by making the analogy, so expect continued criticism if you continue to do so!

It amplifies the throttle signal, point blank. I get that, I also understand that. However, what people seem to have issues understanding that "Their right food can fix" cannot make the throttle sharper in terms of throttle response.

Yes, your right foot absolutely can "sharpen throttle response" in the same way this pedal box does. Simply push the accelerator pedal down farther. What is so hard to understand about this?

At least that is two steps forward and only one step back.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

The thing is a joke & waste of money. Last thing a 135/335 needs is faster tip-in (which you can dial in with a JB 4) with stock tires.

Its all about "feel" not measurable performance on a Vbox or track.

[Fone Phreak]

i'm waiting for them to come out with a brake pedal box!

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Fone Phreak

i'm waiting for them to come out with a brake pedal box!

LOL! But the brake lights come on sooooo much faster!!! It must reduce my braking distance!

[Swadeness]

While going for a drive yesterday I made an observation that I feel is relevant to the topic. I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire here, I'm just trying to add something relevant to the discussion for those who want to actually discuss it.
I recently installed a P3 gage and it has a function to display throttle plate position.
Quoted from the P3 website: "Throttle: Actual throttle plate position. Use this mode to see how your car changes the actual drive by wire throttle blade in relation to what your foot tells it to do."

At a sustained cruise of about 40mph (foot just barely resting on pedal enough to sustain speed) the display will show about 23% throttle. When I add a quick application of about 10% ACTUAL pedal travel the throttle plate initially climbs for about a half second and then briefly opens all the way to 100% before dropping back down to about 25%. Sometimes I can get the throttle to open to 100% faster by depressing the pedal faster or further (but still not close to all the way down). The opening of the throttle plate to 100% directly correlates to the surge you feel shortly after bumping up the throttle. I always thought of that half second delay as turbo lag but it appears at least some of it is software controlling the throttle.

I'm not going to pretend I completely know what the computer is doing with the signal but I think this shows that it is more complicated than X throttle position=X % of throttle. Throttle position, rate of change, RPM, speed and probably a few other factors affect how the DME conditions, dampens, and applies the signal coming from the pedal. Perhaps the pedal box is taking advantage of this and keeps the signal in a range that the DME interprets as a "more responsive" mode.

Car is a 2011 135i
N55
DCT
NO pedal box
COBB AP

[Freon]

The accelerator pedal (gas pedal) absolutely only tells the factory ECU what load you want. How much the actual throttle plate opens is a closed loop control (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback). If you push the pedal down, the actual throttle plate may temporarily open more than the final value it settles upon. I.e. if you go from 10% to 50% pedal position instantly then hold at 50%, actual throttle position may jump from 10% to 70% quickly, then decline back to about 50% once the load target approaches.

It's important to realize this is absolutely aside from what a pedal box does. The pedal box does not alter the closed loop control settings, tables, or logic inside the ECU.

Swadeness, it would be infinitely more interesting and information to post a log file. No one can really draw any conclusions from what you write, and I think your post only further muddles the conversation.

Here's another interesting thought experiment. If you were given two log files from a car, but one was with the pedalbox, could you tell the difference? I tend to think not definitively. One might have more average accelerator and throttle usage (and possibly more brake usage), but is that just because someone was pushing the pedal further, or due to a pedal box like device? The point here being due to the nature of the device you probably not tell... Thus just learning to press the pedal down farther to go faster (earth-shattering idea, I know) would yield the same behavior from the car.

It ends up boiling down to the psychology of the driver, not the pedal box. I wonder how long after someone installs a pedalbox, notices the car is "faster," but then over time has to learn to not press the gas down as far so they aren't smoking tires/speeding/wearing brakes and tires, eventually negating the effect altogether.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Freon

The accelerator pedal (gas pedal) absolutely only tells the factory ECU what load you want. How much the actual throttle plate opens is a closed loop control.

You can clearly see this on a JB4 log. I am posting one where we had some issues during a test & you can see the throttle closing even though the pedal is at 100% for the whole time. You also see the pedal leading the throttle opening at the beginning of the run & closing before the throttle at the end.

Anyone really want to spend $300 for a placebo when $500 can by a lot of WHP?

Pedal = Red & Throttle = Mustard at top of the chart.

[Indo Rider]

Guys, quit wasting the internet on this.

[dsh135]

The thing is a joke & waste of money.
Its all about "feel" not measurable performance on a Vbox or track.

Exactly. This thing is the same sort of money-wasting crap as short shifters, flat-bottomed racing wheels, aluminum pedals, short throw clutch-stops and modified clutch valves. Sure, pretty much everyone that is dumb enough to buy these things says they love them, but I would never waste my time trying any of this stuff because it's obvious to anyone with a brain that they do f-all. All of these losers who positively review this stuff just want to sucker the rest of us in to make themselves feel better about wasting their own money. What matters at the end of the day are dyno numbers and what the clock says at the end of the quarter mile. I mean what does driving "experience" mean anyway? That can't be quantified and is irrelevant at best.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm battling some morons in another thread who think that torque "under the curve" matters.

BMW. The Ultimate Measurement Machine.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Indo Rider

Guys, quit wasting the internet on this.

Actually this turn of the thread is quite interesting. I / we already understand the Pedalbox, and it's a waste of time hashing it out any further. But in a past job I put PLC controllers onto engine dynos and set up some throttle controllers, so getting into the throttle control by the ECU is, IMO, very interesting. Seems clear that at least a few others are interested as well.

[Stohlen]

Originally Posted by dsh135

Exactly. This thing is the same sort of money-wasting crap as short shifters, flat-bottomed racing wheels, aluminum pedals, short throw clutch-stops and modified clutch valves. Sure, pretty much everyone that is dumb enough to buy these things says they love them, but I would never waste my time trying any of this stuff because it's obvious to anyone with a brain that they do f-all. All of these losers who positively review this stuff just want to sucker the rest of us in to make themselves feel better about wasting their own money. What matters at the end of the day are dyno numbers and what the clock says at the end of the quarter mile. I mean what does driving "experience" mean anyway? That can't be quantified and is irrelevant at best.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm battling some morons in another thread who think that torque "under the curve" matters.

BMW. The Ultimate Measurement Machine.

Woah Woah Woah... Did you not start this thread??? Saying that the pedalbox was awesome and everyone should get one!?

P.S. Torque under the curve is very important. Peak torque is irrelevant if you dont have average torque to back it up.

[int2str]

Originally Posted by dsh135

Exactly. This thing is the same sort of money-wasting crap as short shifters, flat-bottomed racing wheels, aluminum pedals, short throw clutch-stops and modified clutch valves.

Your attempt at sarcasm has failed, as your comparison is partially countering your own point and partially just wrong.

Nobody (that I've seen anyway) who buys a flat bottomed steering wheel, pedals or short shifters attributes any magical properties to it. Also, nobody is delusional as to what it does.

Look at "tracer bullet"s post in this thread that I quoted. There is nothing wrong people who buy the pedal box (well, most of them ). If you know what it does and it's what you want it to do, by all means, go ahead.

But when you want to tell us that "revs do indeed build faster - absolutely no queston about it.", that's just complete and utter bullshit. I have no clue why you keep trying to defend that or deflect from it.

Sure, pretty much everyone that is dumb enough to buy these things says they love them, but I would never waste my time trying any of this stuff because it's obvious to anyone with a brain that they do f-all. All of these losers who positively review this stuff just want to sucker the rest of us in to make themselves feel better about wasting their own money.

Nobody (but you) has said this.
You still don't understand the difference...

A positive review is always appreciated - especially when it's factually accurate

Now if you'll excuse me I'm battling some morons in another thread who think that torque "under the curve" matters.

No you're not (at least on 1addicts - you're still just shillin' for the PedalBox ).

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just some quick points. I have used a clutch pedal stop since 1960 on drag cars & it is effective. I was one of the last people effectively running a 4MT in the bracket races at Englishtown well into the late 1980's. It materially cut down the sequence time in making a shift. Made my own parts but have no problem with someone buying one.

The other thing is on the 7DCT I have a home made throttle pedal stop to keep from going into auto kick down mode at WOT. Lots of little things can be useful & are easy to make or buy.