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      06-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #1
GaryS
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"tires will be much less effective during the next competition season" ??

The thread title is from an article at Tire Rack about shaving tires.

I have never used r-comps, just max performance PS2s on stock wheels. Now I'm considering putting Michelin PSCs on a set of Apex track tires in a month or so. But what does this quote mean?

Quote:
once used, all tires will be much less effective during the next competition season. Therefore we recommend that tires be shaved to a depth that is sufficient to last for no more than one competition season.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=67
I'm not interested in giving up tread life for the last bit of performance. But would r-comps I buy this year deteriorate so much in winter storage that they'll suck when I try them again in April or May? Should I wait until then to buy the PSCs?
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      06-29-2011, 05:14 PM   #2
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Well it's true they will never be as good as new but by shaving you will maximize grip but reduce life. So basically they want you to buy a new set every year. I would look into BFG R1. Beats PSC in grip, last longer and costs less. Why not go with full R-comps?
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      06-29-2011, 06:29 PM   #3
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If you store your tires properly, aging will be less of an issue. Cars that sit on r-comps for years on end (like my e30 m3) end up with hard tires that slip really easily when used again.

Don't store them in cold/hot conditions, seal them off from air, and keep them out of the sun. At the very least put them in individual tied off garbage bags in the garage if temps don't fluctuate too much there, but a better quality bag is preferred.
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      06-29-2011, 06:32 PM   #4
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Shaving the tires for just a normal track day IMO is not worth it. If you are out there just to have fun and gain driving experience, you will do just as fine with a full tread PSC tires as you would with a shaven tire that offers less tread life for future track days.

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      06-29-2011, 08:47 PM   #5
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Smile

At your level of experience, How you're doing with technique at any given time will have a much larger effect than year-old rubber. You can even run tires that have sat under the car all winter if you drive through the thumping and get them up to track temperature. This is not advice, but what is actually do able.

R compound tires are measured in hours of life on track. Street wear is negligable relative to track wear. But you avoid rain. 10-18 hours is common unless you have a very light car.

This is my first post. I have a 135i on the water right now, to join my 88 635CSi. And 325ix.
I have instructed BMW CCA and PCA HPDE for well over 20years, and hope I can give something back to this great forum

Pick the tire of your choice and have fun. In general,cheap is good until you really need fastest. Kumho, Hancook, Nitto, etc. Listen to folks you trust.
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      06-30-2011, 05:43 AM   #6
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Thanks everyone, now I understand it better. I'm definitely not going to shave tires for ordinary track days at my level. I will store the tires properly and expect them to last the rest of this season and next year. I'll think about Nitto NT01s a little more before I pull the trigger, but I believe BFG R1s are too intense for my skills and setup at this time. len v, welcome to the 1 series forum.
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      06-30-2011, 09:20 AM   #7
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Gary, I just used my new PSS's on the track this past weekend and wow what a tire....if you're looking for a dual duty tire I don't think you can beat them.
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      06-30-2011, 09:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by len v View Post
At your level of experience, How you're doing with technique at any given time will have a much larger effect than year-old rubber. You can even run tires that have sat under the car all winter if you drive through the thumping and get them up to track temperature. This is not advice, but what is actually do able.

R compound tires are measured in hours of life on track. Street wear is negligable relative to track wear. But you avoid rain. 10-18 hours is common unless you have a very light car.

This is my first post. I have a 135i on the water right now, to join my 88 635CSi. And 325ix.
I have instructed BMW CCA and PCA HPDE for well over 20years, and hope I can give something back to this great forum

Pick the tire of your choice and have fun. In general,cheap is good until you really need fastest. Kumho, Hancook, Nitto, etc. Listen to folks you trust.
Welcome to the forum, and I look forward to seeing more posts from someone with your experience level!
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      06-30-2011, 01:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Thanks everyone, now I understand it better. I'm definitely not going to shave tires for ordinary track days at my level. I will store the tires properly and expect them to last the rest of this season and next year. I'll think about Nitto NT01s a little more before I pull the trigger, but I believe BFG R1s are too intense for my skills and setup at this time. len v, welcome to the 1 series forum.
I definitely would recommend running on street tires as long as you can. Running on sticky street tires allows you to gain more experience with vehicle control. Generally R-Comps will mask what you generally cant do as a driver.

Take a look at RE11, R1R, AD08, RS3 for a slightly stickier compound.

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      06-30-2011, 02:02 PM   #10
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I can only assume that whoever told you that is worried you heatcycling out your tires.

But yeah no need to worry about that or rcomps for a few years
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      06-30-2011, 04:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMRWheels View Post
I definitely would recommend running on street tires as long as you can. Running on sticky street tires allows you to gain more experience with vehicle control. Generally R-Comps will mask what you generally cant do as a driver.
+1 to this. I do a lot of track day instruction, and it's really hard to explain to people that the reason they can make the mistakes they do, or take incorrect lines, is because they're running R-comps (or in some cases, slicks LOL). It gives a false sense of security, and then once you start going faster and pushing a bit more, if you make those same mistakes you're going to end up backwards or off track (or worse).

Street tires also tend to make a lot more noise, and while I don't want people to completely rely on tire squeal as an indicator, it helps when you're learning. As you move up to R-comps, and especially slicks, the tires are going to make little or even no noise. Once they start squealing you're backwards already .

Generally speaking, the stickier the tires are, the less forgiving they are. Street tires lose traction in an almost slow-motion kind of manner, and it's very progressive. You can easily catch a slide on street tires as a beginner. With r-comps, you have much more grip, but once you finally push to far, they let go much faster. Slicks then exaggerate this even more, to the point of you're anticipating slides, not reacting to them, because a "reaction" is already basically too late. Compare that to street tires, where you could be sliding for 1-2 seconds before you make your correction and still be OK .
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      06-30-2011, 06:12 PM   #12
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Guys, I appreciate that you're trying to help, but I think you're way off topic. There are ten-page flame-war threads all over the internet about which skill levels r-comps are appropriate for, but I couldn't find any on whether r-comps deteriorate too much in winter storage to be used again the next season. Anyway, thanks, I do appreciate that you want to help.
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      06-30-2011, 07:05 PM   #13
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Bottom line depending how many track days in a year, you would be looking at changing the r comps once every year or two years. Meanwhile keeping them in a warm room away from direct sun light is your common sense approach for storage. PSC are nice but pricey and you could drive to the track with them. Otherwise there are less expensive solutions with similar or better performance
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      06-30-2011, 07:44 PM   #14
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My impression is that Toyo RA1 has the best reputation for long-term consistency, and is fun and forgiving and acceptable on street. But they don't make it in sizes I can use.
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      06-30-2011, 07:56 PM   #15
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I almost got the RA1. Exceptional reputation among trackers. They are in the process of discontinuation. Few choices on 18 but plenty on 17. If these will be your track set up I would recommend going 17. More choices, lighter, cheaper, and arguably better handling than 18
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      06-30-2011, 08:37 PM   #16
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Shaving in general with also make any tire less progressive to its endpoint on the friction circle. IMHO, this is exactly the opposite a learner would want.
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      06-30-2011, 09:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
My impression is that Toyo RA1 has the best reputation for long-term consistency, and is fun and forgiving and acceptable on street. But they don't make it in sizes I can use.
The Nitto NT-01 is based off the same internal design (nitto is part of toyo). It just has a tread design that doesn't need to be shaved.

Yes, r-comps can get hard over time from both heat cycles and from general ageing/drying out. Regular street tires age much better. If you have the luxury of a second set of wheels then it's easy to store them in a way that minimizes that effect as mentioned earlier.

Will it ruin your track day next season? No. They'll just "fall off" earlier.
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      07-01-2011, 06:23 AM   #18
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TrackRat, I think you're right that the Tire Rack article is talking about winning races. That makes a lot more sense.

In threads I'm finding on other sites, most people agree with paintpro21 about NT-01 for a first r-comp if RA1 isn't available. I see some posts talking about flipping NT-01s on the rim for longer life. My front camber is only -1.7, so that sounds like a good idea if it will work. But the tread pattern isn't symmetrical, so I'm confused. I probably don't understand what flipping is. Can someone explain?

edit: One more question. With NT-01 I would have to use 235/275. My car is lowered 1/2" on BMW PS springs. Will 275 fit for sure on ARC-8 wheels without using spacers?

Last edited by GaryS; 07-01-2011 at 07:56 AM..
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      07-01-2011, 02:17 PM   #19
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since they are unidirectional you can't rotate. so basically you have to flip tires on the opposing rims to be able to rotate from side to side. although the assumption that tire rack meant for racing is true, the truth is these tires are not meant for serious competition. I doubt anyone competing really is using these tires. PSC are high performance street/track tires not unlike dunlop SS or advan 08 or NT01 except they are michelin and they are expensive. also pirelli makes similar called corsa. get the NT01 you will be happy with them
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      07-06-2011, 07:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
since they are unidirectional you can't rotate. so basically you have to flip tires on the opposing rims to be able to rotate from side to side. although the assumption that tire rack meant for racing is true, the truth is these tires are not meant for serious competition. I doubt anyone competing really is using these tires. PSC are high performance street/track tires not unlike dunlop SS or advan 08 or NT01 except they are michelin and they are expensive. also pirelli makes similar called corsa. get the NT01 you will be happy with them
The NT-01 can be used in all directions. When you checkout the tire they are simply labeled on the sidewall as "outside" and "inside". This means that at all times one side of the car is running a tread pattern that is opposite of the other side.

Flipping would mean moving the tire on the left front wheel to the right front wheel and visa verse, or mounting it reverse tread from what it was previously on the same wheel. This allows the inside of the tire to now function as the outside.

The only time you would not want to run a tire backwards is in the rain. The only thing the tread does it directional water evacuation. A tire like the NT-01 will look like a treadless hoosier R6 anyway, so again flipping is a non issue. You can run extreme summer tires backwards as well if rain is not a concern.
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      07-06-2011, 09:26 PM   #21
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I read somewhere that Nitto confirmed that the NT-01 has identical sidewalls on both sides and can be flipped after the tread is worn past the asymmetrical part. But they say if there are still tread blocks showing, turn in can be affected. That may be just theory, because no one seems to mind.
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