[Nikki]

I thought you were trying to say that the Europeans get manuals more often because in Europe the BMW isn't as much of a status symbol car like it is here.

[MonacoBlueNJ]

Originally Posted by CC 330i

You know what, I wouldn't even waste my money buying a BMW if this was the type of driving I had to do all the time. I don't buy this argument. Why subject an expensive BMW to the abuse of stop and go driving? Buy a beater for the commute, and buy a BMW for driving pleasure. I'm not saying that you should only use a BMW for fun drives, but for God's sake, if you do so much stop and go driving that you are tempted to buy an auto, buy something a little more practical. There have to be more economical cars to drive into the ground while having little or no fun stuck in traffic.

No offense to anyone here, but it sounds like a cop out. To each their own, but I can't really buy in to the argument that you had to buy an auto due to traffic. I used to drive into Baja all the time in my GTI and come back through the border several times a month. Talk about stop and go traffic! If I lived through it, you can too. Your clutch work might even get better if you had to drive manual tranny in traffic a little more. I know mine did.

And I will never understand your argument. I commute an hour each way to work and would not want to do it in a honda civic or any other type of beater or "commuter" car.

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by AskNiko

I'm an American that lived in Europe for over six years. I do know what I'm talking about. If you look at the demogaphics of BMW drivers there, they are generally wealthy. Yes they are common, but no, it does not mean the average European is driving a BMW.

I agree 100%! I'm the right opposite, an European living in the US for 6 years. I can definitely say that people in Europe that own bimmers are wealthier than the one's owning them here. Meaning, if you compared two guys/gals in the US and Europe having the same bimmer, you'd see the one in Europe is actually wealthier.
I think it has a lot to do with financing. Many people over there just pay for cars in full, not with a $2,500 downpayment and a 5-year plan. Basically anyone with an average job here could afford a BMW like that, if they wanted to.

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by Squawks

Also, SMG is nearly the same price as the automatic transmission, when it was an available for the E90s (yup, there was a time when it was before BMW scratched it). Maybe just an extra hundred more.

Which category would SMG fall into? Automatic or Manual, if you were to resell it? It's definitely not an automatic, but not quite manual either.

Is it going to be made available as an option in E90s again? that'd be really cool.

[CC 330i]

Originally Posted by MonacoBlueNJ

And I will never understand your argument. I commute an hour each way to work and would not want to do it in a honda civic or any other type of beater or "commuter" car.

I actually commute 75 minutes each way (93 miles exactly) but there is never any traffic and it is on a highway that is fun to drive. Luckily I only have to do it 2 times a week, or I would be driving something more economical. I fought for telecommuting priveledges, and AFTER I secured the blessing of my company to telecommute 3 days a week, I bought the BMW as a reward to myself. If they would have said no, I would be driving a Honda or a Prius.

Commuting in a BMW in stop and go traffic reeks of conspicuous consumption to me. Even still, stop and go traffic or not, I think the only reason one should buy an automatic is if they don't know how to drive a manual. And then, maybe they shouldn't buy a sporty car.

My wife was watching "Teradise" the other night where Tera Reid goes to Monaco and learns to drive an open wheeled race car. She didn't know how to drive a manual transmission, and of course the race car was manual. She said "this sucks, I should be able to drive this, I have a Porsche". (An AUTOMATIC one no doubt). She even pronounced it "PORSH" which I really hate. Oh yeah, because you have a lot of money and an automatic 911, you should be a good driver. Yeah right.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by vladinecko

Which category would SMG fall into? Automatic or Manual, if you were to resell it? It's definitely not an automatic, but not quite manual either.

Is it going to be made available as an option in E90s again? that'd be really cool.

It's called a clutchless manual, but to me it is an automatic. BMW is planning on releasing something like that called SSG.

[fatass]

Seems like all the manual drivers here are more close minded than the automatic ones. Also, seems like most of the automatic bimmer owners here KNOW how to drive manual, but due to conditions/variables they decided to buy an automatic. Not sure why it's so hard to except this.

[DDTAN]

Interesting thread.
And something I have been thinking about myself. Have driven manuals most of my driving life. Have all the same opinions that manual drivers have about automatic drivers. Totally understand the fun of driving a stick, the increased control, the economies.
Yet, in my next car, I would consider an automatic. I bought my last car with a manual, because I the 0.2 second was important, because I didn't want to pay the $1000+ extra, because I didn't want the hassles of possibly having to fix an automatic. My routine commute is usually alot of stop and go on the freeway. And that definitely isn't a lot of fun. No question, without traffic, on a windy road the manual is a blast. But, IMHO, off the line at a stop light, an auto is easier to drive fast.
So I can understand the dilemma of having to make the choice. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

[ward]

Ok so to summarize

resale is basically a wash, they're the same

they we argued about how automatics are lame, and how manuals are great, and how stick shift is a pain in traffic..........................................

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by ward

resale is basically a wash, they're the same

well not really, they are the same in the case when you actually find someone to buy a manual. then i'd agree that you can sell them for basically the same price. but just plain statistics where most of americans drive an automatic, i believe selling a manual would be a greater problem. since it's still not an upscale sports car, like ferraris for example, there are still many people willing to drive BMWs in automatic without feeling like pussies as they should when they drive an automatic 911 turbo S for instance.

[ward]

maybe if you live in the styx where not many people drive BMW's (i.e. where people think bmw stands for british motor works). it's going to be hard to sell any BMW.

in CA where there are TONS of dealers (i have 6-7 within 30 miles)
and there are TONS of people who want a 3, auto AND manual

[Armen52]

I'd like to have a manual maybe 1/3rd of the time I am driving my car when I'm actually focused on the driving and I'd want that interaction as well.

The rest of the time? I want to be lazy and think about other things besides shifting every few seconds. I'll laugh at anyone who looks down on my choice. I'll buy the car that fits my needs/wants, you do the same. Of course, the DSG would be even better

Bottom line with the manual is, you never have a choice; you've always got to be shifting. I don't like not having that choice.

[MonacoBlueNJ]

What really bothers me is people commenting on my automatic BMW or Mustang that I had while they are driving a 20 year old POS. Or, the skinny(or fat, for that matter) making the "manliness" comment to me knowing full well I could kick the sh*t out of them.

[fredtoo]

Not only does shifting in traffic get old, so does all the steering and braking, not to mention stepping on the gas.

Is BMW working on a way to automate these other annoying functions?

[ward]

[bcaslis]

Be careful what you wish for. Have you driven an SMG? I had one for two years on an M3. On a twisty back road it was great. Wonderful downshifts and good upshifts. In normal driving it ranged from OK to truly sucks. In town I can drive a manual and get 1000% better/smoother shifting than with the SMG.

It's a wonderful idea and someday they will get it right. But the reality right now is no computer can control a clutch the way I want without some sort of brain implant so I could direct it. It doesn't guess right all the time and in town guesses wrong most of the time.

In summary, how fast you shift is only meaningful on a racetrack. On streets there is alot more to shifting than speed.

Originally Posted by vladinecko

Which category would SMG fall into? Automatic or Manual, if you were to resell it? It's definitely not an automatic, but not quite manual either.

Is it going to be made available as an option in E90s again? that'd be really cool.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by bcaslis

But the reality right now is no computer can control a clutch the way I want without some sort of brain implant so I could direct it. It doesn't guess right all the time and in town guesses wrong most of the time.

Have you ever driven the DSG A3? If not, go test drive it!

[tima]

My experience tells me the segment of the market that wants a manual seems slightly larger than the number of available manual cars - because they are scarce, manuals are apt to be discounted less.
.

[psyran]

I think the answer (if there is a question) is that if you want a manual then buy a manual. However, if you want an automatic, then perhaps you should buy an automatic. I know this is a deep thought, but just my opinion.
psyran

[bcaslis]

What's a DSG A3?

Originally Posted by Nikki

Have you ever driven the DSG A3? If not, go test drive it!

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by bcaslis

What's a DSG A3?

if you're not kidding, then:
DSG - Audi's version of sequential manual gearbox.
A3 - one of Audi's models

[Nikki]

DSG is not really like SMG, it actually shifts faster than a human could shift a manual transmission. It is the reason why BMW is ditching their SMG and implementing their new SSG transmissions, perhaps on the new M3.

About the DSG:

The DSG is essentially two gearboxes in one, combining the comfort of an automatic with the agility and economy of a manual unit. The six-speed, transversely mounted DSG has two wet clutches (offering a higher thermal load tolerance than dry clutches) with hydraulic pressure regulation. One clutch controls the odd gears plus reverse, while the other operates the even gears.

This dual approach enables the next-higher gear ratio to become engaged but on standby until it is actually selected. In other words, if the car is being driven in third gear, fourth is selected but not yet activated. As soon as the ideal shift point is reached, the clutch on the third-gear side opens, the other clutch closes and fourth gear engages under accurate electronic supervision.

Because the opening and closing actions of the two clutches overlap, a smooth gearshift results and the entire shift process is completed in 40 milliseconds.