M1 vs competition

natedog_1959 · 02-12-2010, 06:26 AM

The 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 with the Track Pack and Brembos will be more than enough competition for the M1. 412 HP, 400 ish lb-ft of torque, 3500-3600 lbs, better than .95 g on the skid pad. I think they will be very close. The 5.0 will be very easy to tune as well. 400 hp N/A from the 4.6 was pretty easily attainable. I would think 500 hp from the 5.0 wouldn't be a stretch. Or you could just bolt on a blower and get 500-600 hp no problem. Nate

ORIGIN M. · 02-12-2010, 09:10 AM

Bingo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by oasis3582

The cobra's live rear axle instantly disqualifies it from consideration.

amdmaxx · 02-12-2010, 09:23 AM

Thats a $25-$30k car..
You can get GT500 for $43k.. Thats 550hp.. see page one..

Quote:

Originally Posted by natedog_1959

The 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 with the Track Pack and Brembos will be more than enough competition for the M1. 412 HP, 400 ish lb-ft of torque, 3500-3600 lbs, better than .95 g on the skid pad. I think they will be very close. The 5.0 will be very easy to tune as well. 400 hp N/A from the 4.6 was pretty easily attainable. I would think 500 hp from the 5.0 wouldn't be a stretch. Or you could just bolt on a blower and get 500-600 hp no problem. Nate

atr_hugo · 02-12-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natedog_1959

The 5.0 will be very easy to tune as well. 400 hp N/A from the 4.6 was pretty easily attainable. I would think 500 hp from the 5.0 wouldn't be a stretch. Or you could just bolt on a blower and get 500-600 hp no problem. Nate

FWIW, direct injection and forced induction were protected in the design of the Ford Coyote engine (officially the 5.0L Ti-VCT). So it has a bottom end that can take a blower/turbo setup. Six bolt mains . . .

Back on topic? ; -)

LeoHammer · 02-12-2010, 03:51 PM

I hope the 1M comes with a mechanical LSD. I wish it had been on the options list for the 135i.

trahsub · 02-12-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grant

I won't own any sportscar that I don't frequently drive at the local road course. Of course all cars wear their tires and brakes at the track, but not at the same rate.

I had a good friend with a Mustang GT racecar and it went through a set of Hoosiers every day due to the live axle (corded the outer shoulders after a couple hours each time). My Porsche goes through track tires every 15 track days and keeps its brake pads for about 30 track days. I can't afford to spend $2,000 every track day (I go to the track about 25 times per season).

A 135i can be easily tuned to dial-out the understeer (swaybars and alignment). A Mustang cannot be easily cured of its issues.

Think about the amount of rubber you can go through with the $20 grand you save buying a GT though, just sayin'.

For the first time in a while (in reference to the stang), I'll be cross shopping an M1 with this new GT w/ the track pack. Rare perhaps, but I'm sure there are other people out there like me that see how much value is in this new Mustang.

SpeedballTrix · 02-12-2010, 05:59 PM

The truth is no one can really answer this question without a reasonable assumption of weight.
We've already heard 350bhp (which frankly I find VERY dissapointing) but we have no idea what it's going to weigh. BMW could easily drop 200lbs from the design. With a bit more work they could drop 400.
And with a complete redesign they could get it under 3000lbs. Now Ill admit I don't see that happening in a million years, but it would make that ridiculous 350bhp seem alot more reasonable.

Having said that... even if we only drop 200lbs that puts us at 3200 and change. With 350hp behind that you're talking 9.14 lbs/hp. If the mustang has 412hp and weighs 3600lbs that's 8.73lbs/hp.
Now factor in the fact that BMW transmissions are some kind of magical when it comes to efficiency and fords... well... are not.
Let's say that the same magical 90% tranny that's in the 135i goes in the M1. That's 10.15lbs/rwhp.
Assuming a standard 85% in the stang that's 10.28 lbs/rwhp.
Gotcha.

Now if Ford puts a live axel in the mustang it will help it down the straight but the M1 will use it's Munich power to smash it through the corners.
If Ford gets "smart" and puts IRS in it to help its cornering performance it will fall flat on its face in a straight line, as every Mustang with IRS has done. A friend of mine owned an '05 cobra for a long time, and he complained about the IRS constantly (he was a street dragger, so he had no concern for the twisties).

The way I see it, even if BMW gives us a measly 350bhp and a meager 200lb weight loss, we've still got the GT covered.
We've got the Audi TT more than covered, except -possibly- in an AutoX or a super tight road course.
We've got the S4 covered (RS4, idk... im not familiar enough with the car, tbh)
The Cayman S is a tough call. 320hp saddled with only 3000lbs is business talk. But the official 0-60 says 4.9s, which you can do in a 135i with good tires. Maybe its the 270ftlbs of torque that's holding it back? Lord knows the current (135i) N54 has gobs of torque, nearly 300 -to the wheels- and from idle till the cows come home, basically.
I've always been a fan of high revs and high rpm power but driving the 135i has made me appreciate nice clean torque.

And all that is assuming 350bhp and 3200lbs.
If BMW makes the M1 we all really want to see then were talking 400bhp (which is not hard to do at all with a 3l turbocharged inline 6... give us the kind of exhaust the aftermarket has been giving us (specifically, free-flowing DPs) and run 15-18lbs of boost) and 3000lbs.
Granted this would beat up the current M3 pretty well, but assuming the M1 sells for $50-55k you can bump the M3 up in price and performance to maintain your product line diversity. If they dropped a couple hundred pounds from the M3 and bumped it up to 500bhp it would still offer buyers a realistic reason to spend the extra money ($10-15k @ $65-70k) over the M1. And if you don't wanna drop the weight on the M3 just put the 550bhp V10 in it and call it a day =P Or, seriously, put some forced induction on the 4.4 V8... I bet that would make for some goooood power and keep the cheaper M1 in its place.

HondaGoneRogue · 02-12-2010, 09:19 PM

There's no way BMW is going to give us 400hp by upping boost and LESS exhaust (emissions sp?) restrictions. Not gonna happen. But the good thing is we can do that after the fact.

amdmaxx · 02-13-2010, 06:46 AM

more hp = higher insurance costs as well. That's why underrating is good.

AlBel1214 · 02-13-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue

There's no way BMW is going to give us 400hp by upping boost and LESS exhaust (emissions sp?) restrictions. Not gonna happen. But the good thing is we can do that after the fact.

Agreed but it would just be nice to not need to chip this thing and be at 400HP b/c then the whole voiding of the warrenty can of worms wouldn't need to be opened opened...

HondaGoneRogue · 02-13-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlBel1214

Agreed but it would just be nice to not need to chip this thing and be at 400HP b/c then the whole voiding of the warrenty can of worms wouldn't need to be opened opened...

That is the downside. I agree.

AlBel1214 · 02-13-2010, 12:21 PM

^^^ Yeah I mean I want the m1 do not get me wrong... I just hate the reliability issues I dealt with with my 1'er... I had I think 9 unscheduled service visits b/c of issues in 17 months...

So once you start modding those trips get more nerve wracking/more of a pain having to swap off parts every time ya go in...

I hope all the kinks are worked out on the m1 from the get go.. It is going to be an awesome car if so...

natedog_1959 · 02-14-2010, 02:05 PM

The 2010 GT with Track Pack had a 0-60 time of 4.9 seconds, 60-0 distance of 107 ft, and .93 g on the skidpad. Add another 100 hp, much bigger brakes and better suspension/tires and those numbers should improve quite a bit. I would say the GT 5.0 will give the M1 all it wants whether at the dragstrip or the road course. Nate

Trier Germany · 02-14-2010, 10:57 PM

Mustangs on a road course. I'll just have to check it out, but in my honest opinion a mustang wont come close on a road course to the M1!

AlBel1214 · 02-15-2010, 08:09 AM

^^^ Good lord stop being such a fanboy... How can you read the post right above yours and still think it won't "come close" to an M1...

Trier Germany · 02-15-2010, 10:52 AM

First of all the M1 is not targeting Mustang for competition. I haven't seen a good handling mustang in quite some time. A fan boy of what? The M-1, of course I'm a BMW enthusiast
Ive owned a BMW since 1995. And personaly I don't think American Automakers make quality cars! but it's seems in recent years they have gotten a little better. Since the economy and verge of bankruptcy they have no choice but to start making quality cars; , if they want to survive on the global market. I personally like the ZR1 vette, Z06 Vette and Caddy CTSV and Shelby Gt500 these cars seem to well built.

BrokenVert · 02-15-2010, 11:34 AM

I have no idea why people dont think that a person can possibly want to cross shop a Mustang with a BMW. The Mustang is a very good performance car for not all that much money. Have you seen how it has spanked Camaro and Challenger even tho is is down over 100HP? It makes up for that in the handling category, and both the Camaro and the Challenger are full IRS setups.

I, myself, was very close to ordering an 09 Stang GT CS 5 Speed and the only reason im not driving it is because I got my 135i for a lot less than I shouldve, bringing the price point very near that of the Stang

AlBel1214 · 02-15-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

First of all the M1 is not targeting Mustang for competition. I haven't seen a good handling mustang in quite some time. A fan boy of what? The M-1, of course I'm a BMW enthusiast
Ive owned a BMW since 1995. And personaly I don't think American Automakers make quality cars! but it's seems in recent years they have gotten a little better. Since the economy and verge of bankruptcy they have no choice but to start making quality cars; , if they want to survive on the global market. I personally like the ZR1 vette, Z06 Vette and Caddy CTSV and Shelby Gt500 these cars seem to well built.

There is a difference in being an enthusiast and someone who just can't fathom an american car coming close to or being equally as impressive as a BMW...

And in this case it is true the new stang is very much competition for the m1... and both are going to be amazing sport cars..

Endgame · 02-18-2010, 10:27 PM

If you rate the Stang as a potential competitor, the Z has to be right there also. Yes, the new Stang will be faster in a straight line, but it still will be unable to compare to the Z on the track.

I am not talking about the Nismo Z either as the Z w/Sport package is faster than the Nismo...

That said, I feel the direct competitors will be the Cayman S and TT-RS. The extended competitors could be the GT500, the new GT, and 370Z.

Trier Germany · 02-19-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlBel1214

There is a difference in being an enthusiast and someone who just can't fathom an american car coming close to or being equally as impressive as a BMW...

And in this case it is true the new stang is very much competition for the m1... and both are going to be amazing sport cars..

Put the stang and M1 on a road course! The M1 will be in a class of it's own there will be no comparison.

Ash83 · 02-19-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oasis3582

The cobra's live rear axle instantly disqualifies it from consideration.

100% true...

Do not compare horse power only... Differential and Control plays a big rule..

NYC6 · 02-19-2010, 01:14 PM

Pretty comical reading people argue about a car thats not even made yet and how much better its going to be than another which isnt made yet.

02-12-2010, 06:26 AM	#67
natedog_1959 Private First Class 4 Rep 153 Posts Drives: 2004 SVT Focus Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0)	The 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 with the Track Pack and Brembos will be more than enough competition for the M1. 412 HP, 400 ish lb-ft of torque, 3500-3600 lbs, better than .95 g on the skid pad. I think they will be very close. The 5.0 will be very easy to tune as well. 400 hp N/A from the 4.6 was pretty easily attainable. I would think 500 hp from the 5.0 wouldn't be a stretch. Or you could just bolt on a blower and get 500-600 hp no problem. Nate Last edited by natedog_1959; 02-12-2010 at 06:39 AM..
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02-12-2010, 03:51 PM	#71
LeoHammer Private First Class 2 Rep 134 Posts Drives: Join Date: Sep 2008 iTrader: (0)	I hope the 1M comes with a mechanical LSD. I wish it had been on the options list for the 135i. __________________ keep both hands on the wheel please.
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02-12-2010, 05:59 PM	#73
SpeedballTrix Second Lieutenant 3 Rep 242 Posts Drives: 2009 135i 6MT SBM/CBL; 2022 X5 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Long Island, NY iTrader: (0)	The truth is no one can really answer this question without a reasonable assumption of weight. We've already heard 350bhp (which frankly I find VERY dissapointing) but we have no idea what it's going to weigh. BMW could easily drop 200lbs from the design. With a bit more work they could drop 400. And with a complete redesign they could get it under 3000lbs. Now Ill admit I don't see that happening in a million years, but it would make that ridiculous 350bhp seem alot more reasonable. Having said that... even if we only drop 200lbs that puts us at 3200 and change. With 350hp behind that you're talking 9.14 lbs/hp. If the mustang has 412hp and weighs 3600lbs that's 8.73lbs/hp. Now factor in the fact that BMW transmissions are some kind of magical when it comes to efficiency and fords... well... are not. Let's say that the same magical 90% tranny that's in the 135i goes in the M1. That's 10.15lbs/rwhp. Assuming a standard 85% in the stang that's 10.28 lbs/rwhp. Gotcha. Now if Ford puts a live axel in the mustang it will help it down the straight but the M1 will use it's Munich power to smash it through the corners. If Ford gets "smart" and puts IRS in it to help its cornering performance it will fall flat on its face in a straight line, as every Mustang with IRS has done. A friend of mine owned an '05 cobra for a long time, and he complained about the IRS constantly (he was a street dragger, so he had no concern for the twisties). The way I see it, even if BMW gives us a measly 350bhp and a meager 200lb weight loss, we've still got the GT covered. We've got the Audi TT more than covered, except -possibly- in an AutoX or a super tight road course. We've got the S4 covered (RS4, idk... im not familiar enough with the car, tbh) The Cayman S is a tough call. 320hp saddled with only 3000lbs is business talk. But the official 0-60 says 4.9s, which you can do in a 135i with good tires. Maybe its the 270ftlbs of torque that's holding it back? Lord knows the current (135i) N54 has gobs of torque, nearly 300 -to the wheels- and from idle till the cows come home, basically. I've always been a fan of high revs and high rpm power but driving the 135i has made me appreciate nice clean torque. And all that is assuming 350bhp and 3200lbs. If BMW makes the M1 we all really want to see then were talking 400bhp (which is not hard to do at all with a 3l turbocharged inline 6... give us the kind of exhaust the aftermarket has been giving us (specifically, free-flowing DPs) and run 15-18lbs of boost) and 3000lbs. Granted this would beat up the current M3 pretty well, but assuming the M1 sells for $50-55k you can bump the M3 up in price and performance to maintain your product line diversity. If they dropped a couple hundred pounds from the M3 and bumped it up to 500bhp it would still offer buyers a realistic reason to spend the extra money ($10-15k @ $65-70k) over the M1. And if you don't wanna drop the weight on the M3 just put the 550bhp V10 in it and call it a day =P Or, seriously, put some forced induction on the 4.4 V8... I bet that would make for some goooood power and keep the cheaper M1 in its place.
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02-12-2010, 09:19 PM	#74
HondaGoneRogue They like my Swag... 433 Rep 3,762 Posts Drives: 15 GSM 435i GC Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: South Dakota iTrader: (4) Garage List 2015 435i Gran Coupe [0.00]	There's no way BMW is going to give us 400hp by upping boost and LESS exhaust (emissions sp?) restrictions. Not gonna happen. But the good thing is we can do that after the fact. __________________ 2015 435i Gran Coupe - Current 2008 AW 135i - Sold
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02-13-2010, 06:46 AM	#75
amdmaxx My gift Registry: M2 119 Rep 1,432 Posts Drives: Future Mowner of Monster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	more hp = higher insurance costs as well. That's why underrating is good.
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02-13-2010, 12:21 PM	#78
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	^^^ Yeah I mean I want the m1 do not get me wrong... I just hate the reliability issues I dealt with with my 1'er... I had I think 9 unscheduled service visits b/c of issues in 17 months... So once you start modding those trips get more nerve wracking/more of a pain having to swap off parts every time ya go in... I hope all the kinks are worked out on the m1 from the get go.. It is going to be an awesome car if so... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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02-14-2010, 02:05 PM	#79
natedog_1959 Private First Class 4 Rep 153 Posts Drives: 2004 SVT Focus Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0)	The 2010 GT with Track Pack had a 0-60 time of 4.9 seconds, 60-0 distance of 107 ft, and .93 g on the skidpad. Add another 100 hp, much bigger brakes and better suspension/tires and those numbers should improve quite a bit. I would say the GT 5.0 will give the M1 all it wants whether at the dragstrip or the road course. Nate
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02-14-2010, 10:57 PM	#80
Trier Germany Banned 58 Rep 1,084 Posts Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ iTrader: (1)	Mustangs on a road course. I'll just have to check it out, but in my honest opinion a mustang wont come close on a road course to the M1!
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02-15-2010, 08:09 AM	#81
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	^^^ Good lord stop being such a fanboy... How can you read the post right above yours and still think it won't "come close" to an M1... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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02-15-2010, 10:52 AM	#82
Trier Germany Banned 58 Rep 1,084 Posts Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ iTrader: (1)	First of all the M1 is not targeting Mustang for competition. I haven't seen a good handling mustang in quite some time. A fan boy of what? The M-1, of course I'm a BMW enthusiast Ive owned a BMW since 1995. And personaly I don't think American Automakers make quality cars! but it's seems in recent years they have gotten a little better. Since the economy and verge of bankruptcy they have no choice but to start making quality cars; , if they want to survive on the global market. I personally like the ZR1 vette, Z06 Vette and Caddy CTSV and Shelby Gt500 these cars seem to well built.
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02-15-2010, 11:34 AM	#83
BrokenVert Resident Kerbalnaut 477 Rep 10,703 Posts Drives: Topless Brute/Hybrid Boogaloo Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Fahrvergnügen/NY iTrader: (0)	I have no idea why people dont think that a person can possibly want to cross shop a Mustang with a BMW. The Mustang is a very good performance car for not all that much money. Have you seen how it has spanked Camaro and Challenger even tho is is down over 100HP? It makes up for that in the handling category, and both the Camaro and the Challenger are full IRS setups. I, myself, was very close to ordering an 09 Stang GT CS 5 Speed and the only reason im not driving it is because I got my 135i for a lot less than I shouldve, bringing the price point very near that of the Stang __________________
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02-18-2010, 10:27 PM	#85
Endgame Private First Class 1 Rep 117 Posts Drives: Join Date: Jul 2007 iTrader: (0)	If you rate the Stang as a potential competitor, the Z has to be right there also. Yes, the new Stang will be faster in a straight line, but it still will be unable to compare to the Z on the track. I am not talking about the Nismo Z either as the Z w/Sport package is faster than the Nismo... That said, I feel the direct competitors will be the Cayman S and TT-RS. The extended competitors could be the GT500, the new GT, and 370Z. Last edited by Endgame; 02-19-2010 at 06:16 AM..
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02-19-2010, 01:14 PM	#88
NYC6 Banned 71 Rep 2,070 Posts Drives: '10 135i PPKI/06 C6 Z51 Vette Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: LI/NY iTrader: (0)	Pretty comical reading people argue about a car thats not even made yet and how much better its going to be than another which isnt made yet.
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