128i or 228i for track days?

[Gangplank]

I currently own a 2011 135i w/ about 95k miles, Ohlins R&T, M3 control arms, diff brace, and RSFB inserts ( probably need to replace w/ M3 or 2 piece version)….

I've done a good number of track days on motorcycles, but sold my bikes a few years ago, and i'd like to start doing them in cars.

So do I keep the 135i and use it or I can pick up a used 128 or 228 for track days and occasional weekend driving?

Looking at prices for used cars I can get a 2008 -2013 128 for $8k to 15k depending on year, mileage, condition, etc. or a 2014-2016 228 for about $12 to $16k.

128 w/ n52 (or n51) w/ 230 hp
228 is n20 is turbo w/ 240 hp

I'm aware both can be tuned to add a bit more power. 128 needs manifold and ECI flash, and 228 can be tuned w/ flash or piggy back box.

Suspension & chassis seems somewhat similar in terms building/needs for track. Both will benefit from LSD, subframe bushings, shocks/struts.

128 is hydraulic steering vs 228 electric but I hear it's quite good.

Obviously the 128 would be a manual. 228 would most likely be manual but the 8 speed auto is supposed to be a nice shifting unit w/ paddle shifters.

Open to input here?

So do I keep my 135i w/ DCT and add an LSD, or get a lighter more balanced 128 or 228?

I'm thinking the answer is obvious - keep what I've got and upgrade the Driver.

[BMWCCA1]

Duhh. I'm assuming you've actually driven both?

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Duhh. I'm assuming you've actually driven both?

Not yet, will be as I begin looking into it more. I'm researching for now.

I've had my 135 for years. I'll probably use it for the first year and may just keep it for track duty. That really depends on the manual vs DCT and 320 hp vs 240 hp decisions.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Gangplank

Not yet, will be as I begin looking into it more. I'm researching for now.

I've had my 135 for years. I'll probably use it for the first year and may just keep it for track duty. That really depends on the manual vs DCT and 320 hp vs 240 hp decisions.

What is your ultimate goal? Just fun?
128 would be MUCH more stout. N52 can easily be prepared for serious track time as it is naturally aspirated engine. Get N52 NOT N51. N51 will have a lot of additional emissions stuff and already comes with 3 stage intake manifold, but it is not as capable to extract hp as N52.
N52 depending on software with 3 stage manifold can get you 260 to 280hp on crank. Going modified N54 manifold can put you close to 270whp but power is way up. You lose low end torque.
Add oil cooler from N54/55 (radiator type) and you can run 24hrs Le Mans.
228 with N20 is iffy. Timing chain guides, injectors, turbo is not epitome of longevity. Sure, you can slap software, intercooler, bingo bongo=350hp. But, try both and you will see what I am talking.

[wootloops]

OP, I would definitely go with the 128 over the 228 for a track car. The car with the N/A N52/N51 is a blast once you get it dialed in. With the right mods it will feel like it makes power all the way to redline, and have sharper throttle response than the 228. The turbo motor will be more punchy in the mid range and then fall off up top. The N52 is also likely to be more reliable since you aren't dealing with a turbo and direct injection.

Originally Posted by edycol

What is your ultimate goal? Just fun?
128 would be MUCH more stout. N52 can easily be prepared for serious track time as it is naturally aspirated engine. Get N52 NOT N51. N51 will have a lot of additional emissions stuff and already comes with 3 stage intake manifold, but it is not as capable to extract hp as N52.
N52 depending on software with 3 stage manifold can get you 260 to 280hp on crank. Going modified N54 manifold can put you close to 270whp but power is way up. You lose low end torque.
Add oil cooler from N54/55 (radiator type) and you can run 24hrs Le Mans.
228 with N20 is iffy. Timing chain guides, injectors, turbo is not epitome of longevity. Sure, you can slap software, intercooler, bingo bongo=350hp. But, try both and you will see what I am talking.

I agree with most of your points but the N51 should not be a deal breaker. The slightly lower compression ratio makes for like a 5-10whp difference, and the extra emissions stuff can be deleted. Of course N52 is better all other things equal, but I wouldn't pass up a 128 with an n51 if the price was right. I don't notice a major difference between my fully modded N51 (catless headers, N54 manifold, MILVS, Stagefp tune) and my friend's N52 car with the same mods.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by wootloops

OP, I would definitely go with the 128 over the 228 for a track car. The car with the N/A N52/N51 is a blast once you get it dialed in. With the right mods it will feel like it makes power all the way to redline, and have sharper throttle response than the 228. The turbo motor will be more punchy in the mid range and then fall off up top. The N52 is also likely to be more reliable since you aren't dealing with a turbo and direct injection.

I agree with most of your points but the N51 should not be a deal breaker. The slightly lower compression ratio makes for like a 5-10whp difference, and the extra emissions stuff can be deleted. Of course N52 is better all other things equal, but I wouldn't pass up a 128 with an n51 if the price was right. I don't notice a major difference between my fully modded N51 (catless headers, N54 manifold, MILVS, Stagefp tune) and my friend's N52 car with the same mods.

I mean yes, if price is right, well maintained car, and doing all the work.

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by edycol

What is your ultimate goal? Just fun?
128 would be MUCH more stout. N52 can easily be prepared for serious track time as it is naturally aspirated engine. Get N52 NOT N51. N51 will have a lot of additional emissions stuff and already comes with 3 stage intake manifold, but it is not as capable to extract hp as N52.
N52 depending on software with 3 stage manifold can get you 260 to 280hp on crank. Going modified N54 manifold can put you close to 270whp but power is way up. You lose low end torque.
Add oil cooler from N54/55 (radiator type) and you can run 24hrs Le Mans.
228 with N20 is iffy. Timing chain guides, injectors, turbo is not epitome of longevity. Sure, you can slap software, intercooler, bingo bongo=350hp. But, try both and you will see what I am talking.

Yes, it's for fun. For now I'm going to start with my 135i for first few track/HPDE days and then see what I want to do - upgrade 135, move to 128, or just Miata. All that depends on what I decide my goals are down the road.

So as I'm reading through everything the 128 n51/n52 seems like a decent way to go. If the plan is to swap manifolds then either one will work. I need to research the differences with n51 vs n52 with the n54 vs 3SIM.

Lots to learn.

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by wootloops

OP, I would definitely go with the 128 over the 228 for a track car. The car with the N/A N52/N51 is a blast once you get it dialed in. With the right mods it will feel like it makes power all the way to redline, and have sharper throttle response than the 228. The turbo motor will be more punchy in the mid range and then fall off up top. The N52 is also likely to be more reliable since you aren't dealing with a turbo and direct injection.

I agree with most of your points but the N51 should not be a deal breaker. The slightly lower compression ratio makes for like a 5-10whp difference, and the extra emissions stuff can be deleted. Of course N52 is better all other things equal, but I wouldn't pass up a 128 with an n51 if the price was right. I don't notice a major difference between my fully modded N51 (catless headers, N54 manifold, MILVS, Stagefp tune) and my friend's N52 car with the same mods.

Thanks for the input and info. From what I'm reading I think you are spot on. If planning to swap manifolds either way there is not going to be much difference between them if you plan on the N54 manifold + MILVS.

[edycol]

Only thing is that MILVS Are missing from market for several months.
But real difference is reliability compared to 228. N51/52 are easy to cool off. I have N55 oil cooler on my 328 xDrive 6MT that I track here in CO. Take into consideration that altitude is worse when it comes to overheating than any ambient temperature in FL or TX. Yet, I do 1 1/2hrs sessions at 5,000ft altitude and around 100f ambient temperature with no issues.

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by edycol

Only thing is that MILVS Are missing from market for several months.
But real difference is reliability compared to 228. N51/52 are easy to cool off. I have N55 oil cooler on my 328 xDrive 6MT that I track here in CO. Take into consideration that altitude is worse when it comes to overheating than any ambient temperature in FL or TX. Yet, I do 1 1/2hrs sessions at 5,000ft altitude and around 100f ambient temperature with no issues.

Hadn't realized the MILV were no longer available.

For my intended use which will be to have a fun car for track that is still street legal to drive to work as a second car I think either n51 or n52 will fit the bill.

Honestly for my use the 5-10 difference in HP might not be a big deal but then again unless the n51 was a 6MT Msport slicktop unicorn (if that even exists) I'd probably just look for n52.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by Gangplank

unless the n51 was a 6MT Msport slicktop unicorn (if that even exists) I'd probably just look for n52.

I know of at least one

[Blau]

Wanted to chime in. The N51 vs N52 debate is old. It's been settled. Very little HP difference, and a$$ dynos can't tell any difference.

I've got a happy n51 slick top with manual sports seats and the flappy paddles. It's a hoot to drive. I did the PBX to see if I'd even care about getting a tune. Did Eurobox and silicone elbow, and a Berk race exhaust. The car has never sounded or felt better. Once I tune, I'll dyno it.

I've driven an n51 car and a similarly set up N52 car and mine felt better so YMMV. In reality 5-10hp isn't something your butt will feel.
🥂

[Gangplank]

Thanks Suprgnat & WeShallCallHerBlau

That's what I thought might be the case. For now I'm planning on tracking the 135i to get started and investing in the "Driver" upgrade. If Start upgrading and stay smart about it they will carry over and work on a 128 n51/n52 if I decide to go that route. I did suspension upgrades so to start I'd be looking at

- [ ] Brake pads, discs & fluid RBF600

Nest step
- [ ] Camber plates
- [ ] Apex wheels
- [ ] 4-pt harness

All could carry over until I get to needing more cooling and/or LSD.

[racer_951]

I had a 2014 228i M Sport 6MT. I fully enjoyed that car and it was a beautiful car especially with both exterior and interior colors (see photos). As I recall, here are a few minor mods that seem effective (BC Racing coilovers, down pipes, charge pipes, intercooler, a tune, Hawk HP plus pads, 17x8.5 D-Force wheels and 245/40/17 RE71R). The car was fun. I did 1:47 at Laguna Seca and 2:10 at Thunderhill East cyclone and definitely had a couple seconds left on the table.

I sold my 228i a couple of years ago and bought a 2012 128i (N51) M Sport 6MT last year with now 41k miles (wish it is a slick top). I took it out at Thunderhill East and did 2:12 in almost stock setup except the track wheels and tires left over from the 228i, 135i front brake with Hawk pads. However, the car went into limp mode only 3-4 laps into the session due to oil temp. Since then I had a custom oil cooler installed. Unfortunately, due to the secondary air injection pump, I had a custom oil cooler installed instead of using 135i oil cooler. I tested it Thunderhill West. By the end of the the last session in the afternoon, the car went into limp mode after it’s been driven almost the entire day. Thunderhill West is tight track which doesn’t have much long straight for cooling. Mechanic said try flushing the radiator and use distilled water and Water Wetter instead of coolant. Hopefully, no more limp mode.

I’m in the process of setting prepping it now. So far, I bought TC Kline Racing coilovers, front/read 1M/M3 control arm kit and solid aluminum rear subframe bushings. I plan to tackle the installation myself this week except the subframe bushings. I also did some minor mods: carbon intake filter removed, silicone intake boot. I bought an N55 midpipe without the secondary cat and an left over N54 rear muffler from the 135i I sold to my daughter. I plan to tackle the exhaust mods and test my welding skills.

Down the road, I’ll do AA headers, a tune, LSD, seats, harnesses and that’s it.

Driving impressions between my old 228i and the 128i. Both cars are fun but the 128i has better throttle response. The 228i made about 300hp+ (just estimate) at the crank but power/torque sort of dropped off beyond ~5.5k rpm. The 128i is about 100 lb lighter and I felt it. I think the 128i will be much more fun and faster once I have the suspension mods done. And it will definitely be faster with the headers and LSD. Can’t wait.

[Gangplank]

@racer_951 thanks for the reply. That is exactly the info & comparison I was looking for.

Couple of questions. Why did you decide to do a custom oil cooler vs just using the ER oil cooler (high capacity) and an oil manifold for 135?

Have you considered upgrading the radiator to a CSF for better cooling?

Have you checked the codes that were causing the limp mode? From what I've read It may have been the brake overheat Nannie's kicking in. It doesn't have a sensor for brake heat but if you are mashing on then the cpu thinks might be overheating then so it throws it into limp mode. These Nannie's can be coded out I believe.

[racer_951]

My N51 has a secondary injection pump. If I remove the pump, check engine light will come on. It wii have more hassle trying to pass California smog test.

Regarding the limp mode, come to think about it, it is possible due to reduce power from brakes being hot and not limp mode. Thanks for mentioning that. It happened at Thunderhill West which is a tight track with many series of tight corners. I recall it happened right after a series of tight turns before before a short straight. I have 135i front brakes btw. The power reduction was brief and it didn’t feel like the limp mode driving before the oil cooler installation.

I plan to have the nannies turned off. I’m researching on the coding tools. Since I plan to install an LSD, I am thinking about having the nannies and eDiff turned off. Any recommendations on coding tools or remote coding services?

[racer_951]

Just add to my previous reply. The secondary air injection pump interferes with the oil lines going to the factory 135 oil cooler where it is supposed to be mounted under the passenger wheel well. I wish I bought an N52 but having the 3 stage manifold on the sulev motor is also a nice thing even though the N51 has lower compression and more emission related equipments like the secondary injection pump and secondary cats on the midpipe. I consider myself lucky that I found a low mileage (38k) M Sport 6MT. 128i’s are more rare than 135i’s (which I have had 2 in the past at different times) especially an M Sport 6MT.

I do have an 135i oil cooler, factory lines, and brand new mounting bracket if anyone interested.

[Gangplank]

Originally Posted by racer_951

My N51 has a secondary injection pump. If I remove the pump, check engine light will come on. It wii have more hassle trying to pass California smog test.

Regarding the limp mode, come to think about it, it is possible due to reduce power from brakes being hot and not limp mode. Thanks for mentioning that. It happened at Thunderhill West which is a tight track with many series of tight corners. I recall it happened right after a series of tight turns before before a short straight. I have 135i front brakes btw. The power reduction was brief and it didn't feel like the limp mode driving before the oil cooler installation.

I plan to have the nannies turned off. I'm researching on the coding tools. Since I plan to install an LSD, I am thinking about having the nannies and eDiff turned off. Any recommendations on coding tools or remote coding services?

I'm familiar with Thunder Hill. I used to do track days there on my motorcycle (GSXR750). Mostly the original East course. Very fun track turns 2-3 and 6-7-8-9 of man!

[spidertri]

Gangplank You asked above about upgrading the radiator for better cooling on the N51/2 cars.

Interestingly enough, the 128s have larger radiators than the 135s. I guess it has to do with packaging the intercooler below the radiator on the 135, but I expected something to be different. So I was surprised to find out that, in addition to being taller, the 128 radiator is the same width and depth as the 135 version.

Attached images are the Mahle listings from RockAuto.

Now, you really only use the extra cooling capacity for the engine coolant if you have a manual transmission car because the automatic cars use the lower portion of the radiator for cooling that fluid. But in all the tracking I've done I've never seen coolant temps get out of hand and I log that every time I go out.

Definitely need some kind of oil cooler though.

[Gangplank]

Thanks spidertri

Looking at prices I'm seriously considering an n52 either:

'08-12 128i or

'06 325, '06 330, or '07-'12 328 models (all have 3.0 n52 w/ 3 stage manifold)

Upgrade and running costs for consumables would be less than trying to make the 35i more reliable.

Still modern enough and in the 3 series could get a 4 door DD/track day sleeper

[Blau]

Originally Posted by racer_951

Just add to my previous reply. The secondary air injection pump interferes with the oil lines going to the factory 135 oil cooler where it is supposed to be mounted under the passenger wheel well. I wish I bought an N52 but having the 3 stage manifold on the sulev motor is also a nice thing even though the N51 has lower compression and more emission related equipments like the secondary injection pump and secondary cats on the midpipe. I consider myself lucky that I found a low mileage (38k) M Sport 6MT. 128i’s are more rare than 135i’s (which I have had 2 in the past at different times) especially an M Sport 6MT.

I do have an 135i oil cooler, factory lines, and brand new mounting bracket if anyone interested.

Just get rid of the SAP. Seems like a way better plan than selling all the good bits.

[racer_951]

I already paid a shop installing a custom oil cooler. Deleting SAP will fail smog in CA.