N54 & N55 Single Turbo Project

[martymil]

There is no restriction from bolt ons so the restriction is in the motor somewhere or the transmission has had enough.

You can see from the graph where she was trying to spin up on the dyno and we had to strap the biatch tight so she would not launch off into the stratosphere. LOL

The previous dyno session was done on a nice cool day.

We are currently experiencing a heatwave in Sydney and the temps were 38+ deg.

http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/heatwave/index.shtml

Hitting the dyno and doing some extreme testing was necessary.

Mike is heading down to Nizpro this weekend to get the new trans fitted

Keep you posted

[John_01]

I thought the turbo with the larger aspect ratio of 1.01 may produce higher peak power if ran at the same boost level. Will the 0.83 A/R turbine create some restriction and need 2PSI more boost to compensate? Higher ambient temps obviously wouldn't help.

[martymil]

I don't think the rear housing is a restriction, it makes more power everywhere and
drives much better.

The heat and humidity would be the culprit.

Back to more testing.

[135i2]

Car has gone back to the fabricator to deal with the restrictions we have in the exhaust system (just hacked up N55 mids and a small dump at the moment) along with some final tweaks to the turbofold and comfort engine mount.

We estimate the fabricator will need the car for 6-8 weeks.

When done its time for final testing and dyno runs ahead of JDTuning release.

Hope the engine and trans hold out for the spanking ahead.

[135]

Originally Posted by 135i2

Some differences were heat, semi slicks, incomplete tune, incomplete set-up and lowest of the 7 runs posted.

Originally Posted by martymil

There is no restriction from bolt ons so the restriction is in the motor somewhere or the transmission has had enough.

The previous dyno session was done on a nice cool day.

We are currently experiencing a heatwave in Sydney and the temps were 38+ deg.

Originally Posted by 135i2

Car has gone back to the fabricator to deal with the restrictions we have in the exhaust system (just hacked up N55 mids and a small dump at the moment) along with some final tweaks to the turbofold and comfort engine mount.

We estimate the fabricator will need the car for 6-8 weeks.

When done its time for final testing and dyno runs ahead of JDTuning release.

Hope the engine and trans hold out for the spanking ahead.

Ok, that explains the restriction.

Heat was what stood out to me. I also thought the different rear housing would have made a difference but, based on your other reply, perhaps not.

Another 6-8 weeks The definition of patience!
Always looking for updates but the next one might be a while out

[135i2]

Yes, heat has been oppressive throughout our testing. But we have deliberately smashed this car and turbo setup through harsh Aussie conditions and not focussed on optimising dyno figures at this stage.

There is no doubt that the next round of fettling will unleash some of the potential in the 3584rs but certainly nowhere near its maximum. Finding its upper limits with consistency will require a built motor, very strong drive-line and a plethora of supporting mods, all of which are super expensive done right. I would think 600rwkw or close would be achievable with the right set-up.

The 0.83 housing makes the 84rs drivable and the 1.01 is just an unpleasant dog on the street. I'm sure the 1.01 would ultimately make more power in the top end but not worth the light switch power delivery IMHO. Unfortunately I cooked the 1.01 CHRA before we could get proper numbers but we had restrictions anyway so it was moot.

If I were satisfied with mid to high 400s (probably will be as I will only run 98 on my built motor - not e85) I would swap out the turbo to a 3582r or even smaller for much faster spool and a crazy fast street car with relentless top end.

BEV isn't my daily driver so I don't mind the time taken to get a refined, stealth result. We have learned, tested and developed lots of performance bit along the way. So, fun!

[135]

800 genuine Oz HP (US~950HP) would be amazing but, like you said, it's going to require a whole new level of supporting mods.

So, I know you said you could go with a smaller turbo for mid-high 400rwkw, but are you thinking that you could also get mid-high 400rwkw with the 84rs on pump 98? With or without PI? I'd like to see without PI or single/double barrel just to see what your N54 paired with the 84rs is capable of - essentially the basic kit without any options. Either way, I'd definitely like to see those logs and dyno power curve!

What rev range do you currently have the 84rs operating in? From what rpm is it making most of its power?
How does it respond when you get off the gas, change down gears and then back on it (e.g. coming into and out of a sharp corner), e.g. in the 3000+ rpm range?

[135i2]

There is no way I would be running this turbo without PI and a now, not without a VTT single or double barrel shotgun.

Initially we had the standard HPFP and PI kicking much sooner with the PI injectors maxing out through the aggressive part of the power curve. Sticking with the original setup would have meant larger PI injectors and HPFP replacements.

I think we have PI coming in progressively after 4000rpm with the single barrel shotgun but the HPFP still falls over pretty quickly. I will convert to double shotgun at some stage to minimise the PI and use DI for as long as possible through the RPM range.

Car drives well with auto box and 3000rpm sees you climbing rapidly into serious boost. A turbo of this size coming into its power curve makes the 135 short wheelbase a crazy handful. The car wants to kill you at 450rwkw and above on anything but straight roads. Curves are not for changing down and mashing the throttle.

The 3584rs is probably too much turbo unless you are chasing 500-600rwkw. A smaller turbo would make a more sensible choice for those not wanting to tread the expensive and endless upgrade path to hold and deal with mid 400s+.

We will see how much power I can screw out of 98 on a built motor down the track but 450rw would be nice.

As to logs, that's down to Justin or Marty. I just point and squirt the car trying to keep it straight and insert the odd approving nod when I'm told the logs look perfect.

[135]

Since you had clocked up 460+ rwkw a while ago with (I think) E60 and just PI (and no single barrel shotgun at that time), I was thinking a pump 98 tune without PI/shotgun targeting up to 400 rwkw might have been achievable, putting it at the low end of the 84rs power range.

Since your HPFP is falling over with PI and the single, would it be possible that your HPFP might not be 100% healthy? Although, the HPFP health is likely a direct result of, and being affected by, the tune for the power you're achieving.

Quite some time ago, I remember martymil testing JB4/PI and found some issues with suddenly backing off and the PI still flowing (lean conditions on DI/fuel cut), causing backfires and also damaging the O2 sensors.
Do you know if those issues were ever addressed?
Those sorts of things are what would concern me with running PI, not to mention the shotguns overdriving the HPFP.
Are there still any downsides to PI?

Straight roads are great for all that power but curves are where the fun is

[martymil]

The backfires where addressed with speeding up the sampling rate of the jb4 by Terry

We believe that we found the issue with the hpfp but untested.

MHD cant reset the deep HPFP adaptations which can only be reset with
inpa, bavtech or auto logic according to Tony from VTT.

I have seen this work in action when reset properly and a dual di should be adequate,
still untested here on how much it can actually run before its maxed.

Definitely there are downsides to pi, the di shutdown safety still hasn't been addressed
on the jb4 and the only way to safely run pi is to run a Syvecs ecu, you wont get much change from
10k drive in drive out once its tuned.

The only way to run 400rwk safely is the double barrel shotgun setup with a twin plate/SMFW combo
or auto box

The dmfw can cause a false knock and cause a misfire in the range of 370 to 380rwk

Seen this on multiple engines

[135]

Thanks for your input

By dual DI, do you mean double barrel shotgun?

So you think 400rwkw on pump 98 will still need a double barrel. I was thinking/hoping it could have been done with just a healthy HPFP.

The PI issues and cost are what is holding me back from it.
The cost of Syvecs also makes it not an option for me
I wish someone could come up with a PnP replacement HPFP solution that could support any power level. Twisted Tuning had a thread on SS that discusses a HPFP upgrade, moved from a Q1 2018 release to Q3 (for N54 and early-E-series N55) - Q1/Q2 is the timeframe for N55 late-E-series and F-series.

Luckily, I'm AT so no DMFW and so no false knock.

[martymil]

Yes double barrel

On 98 the hpfp maxes out the injector flow at 15 or around 2000 psi and thats 345 to 360 rwk on 20 psi on single shotgun, to get 400rwk you will need 25psi+ and 3000psi on the di rail all the way to redline using double barrel

Thats with two brand new hpfp pumps what ive seen on my car

I will be doing more testing in the next few weeks when my new engine is finally
assembled this week and after the run in period

Keep you posted

[135i2]

For those keeping an eye;

Car has gone back to fabricator to remove the restrictions we have hit in the system including inlet and exhaust.
Frustratingly, this is limiting us to under 500rw (assuming donk & trans will hold with a tad more power).

We will continue to tune the car with JB4 before considering the next couple of options.
Dual DI is also on the cards to minimise the use of PI.
The Nizpro box is a little way off yet as it requires a Melb visit to optimise against the ST set-up.

Progress is pretty swift this time and we'll go straight back to tuning and testing as soon as we can.

[FLYN55]

Whats the restriction in the exhaust would you think ??
Ive had no problems with making on over 600Rwks with a 3" Tbe on my mazda. Might be worth looking else where as tuning cams

[135i2]

On my standard unopened engine, its not worth looking at cams or any other major hardware changes over optimising the current set-up in order to get a peek at this ST kits potential. Results on a standard engine has always been the initial goal ahead of future development. My TB, FF intake and IC are well capable of high HP. No restrictions there.

We are already way past the safe limit for a standard n54 with breakage, bent rods or ring land failure only a matter of time. At over 80,000kms my car could suffer failure at any moment along with a whole lot more.

Relative safety (if there is such a thing) at high power levels needs a built motor, head, cams, Syvecs etc. Most of that is planned for and will come in time. Only then will the upper limit of this turbo be found. But it won't happen on this motor with a standard auto.

[whatsisname]

G'day everyone,

I hope you don't mind the intrusion but I thought perhaps I could add some valid info'.

I am always on the lookout for dyno or drag strip results from the GTX3584RS. I've been running one on the RB25/30 in my R33 Skyline for about 12mths now.

I opted for the 1.01 turbine housing, a compromise between top end power and response. Prior to GTX3584RS I had a Forced Performance HTA GT3586R with a T3 0.85 rear. That combination produced an extremely responsive 463kW at the wheels on 25-26psi


The results posted in this thread are very close to my own, despite the differences between the N series engine and the old RB25/30.

Cheers,
Matt

[135i2]

How'dee Matt, Thanks for your info.

Always been on the lookout for 84RS results across other platforms. What RPM is your 500+ spinning? We are limited to under 7000rpm with the current tuning software. Car cuts out at bang on 7k.

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by 135i2

How'dee Matt, Thanks for your info.

Always been on the lookout for 84RS results across other platforms. What RPM is your 500+ spinning? We are limited to under 7000rpm with the current tuning software. Car cuts out at bang on 7k.

I thought it was 8k ? I know I've seen the Vargas car pull 8k in one video just recently.

[titium]

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

I thought it was 8k ? I know I've seen the Vargas car pull 8k in one video just recently.

Stock dme has a hard cap just over 8k. Stock limiter is set at 7k.

[whatsisname]

Hi there. No problem at all, always happy to chat about results.

The limiter is set at roughly 7900rpm. Peak torque arrives between 4300-4400rpm.

The current power level was achieved at 27 dropping to 26psi boost.

The engine is out of the car at the moment undergoing 1/2" head and main bolt upgrades. Nothing failed but the decision was made to strengthen the bottom end in order to wind the boost up to roughly 35psi

I am not sure if the 3584RS is capable of 600kw at the wheels, certainly not with the 1.01 housing. But it should make well into the mid 500 range (560-580kw).

No recent drag figures to accompany the dyno info'. But 129mph trap speed when the car had 380ish at the wheels.

[135i2]

Originally Posted by titium

Stock dme has a hard cap just over 8k. Stock limiter is set at 7k.

JB4 hard cut is 7000rpm even with no auto change at max throttle in xhp.

Boost box, MHD and XHP will get me higher I think...not sure the limit. All moot without a built engine.

[135i2]

Originally Posted by whatsisname

Hi there. No problem at all, always happy to chat about results.

The limiter is set at roughly 7900rpm. Peak torque arrives at between 4300-4400rpm.

The current power level was achieved at 27 dropping to 26psi boost.

The engine is out of the car at the moment undergoing 1/2" head and main bolt upgrades. Nothing failed but the decision was made to strengthen the bottom end in order to wind the boost up to roughly 35psi

I am not sure if the 3584RS is capable of 600kw at the wheels, certainly not with the 1.01 housing. But it should make well into the mid 500 range (560-580kw).

No recent drag figures to accompany the dyno info'. But 129mph trap speed when the car had 380ish at the wheels.

I will need a fully Monty motor and head, and something like a Syvecs to get around 8k rpm, an optimum motor result and the turbo maxed out on my setup. The n54 head ports and valves are small compared with anything Nissan RB engined as well as the rpm ceiling.

The n54 RHD turbo manifold will never be ideal either compared with the best LHD solutions. And then the auto trans will limit any result I could get (even the built Nizpro). There is a reason VTT are using a Samsonas, sleeved motor etc.

My full Monty motor is getting built now and we will run a 35psi number at some stage on the best set-up we can achieve on e85 then drop the oil and fuel immediately.

But, ultimately this is a full luxo street car (always has been), not a drag or track car, and will end up on 98 only and probably a smaller turbo such as a 3076 or 3576. Whatever it makes on 98 will be where it stays for good.