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      09-24-2018, 07:33 PM   #1
Jeb_
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128i Alignment: What I asked for vs. What I got.

After keeping it stock for two years other than staggered wheels from a 135i, I decided to finally start down the rabbit hole of modifying my base 128i.

The plan is to get it to perform better at autocross and on the track while keeping it somewhat bearable on the road (it's currently my only car).
This weekend I started by installing e90 M3 front control arms and Dinan fixed camber plates. I went to get an alignment this morning and asked them to shoot for as much negative camber as possible, 0 toe in the front, and 1/16" - 1/8" toe in in the rear.

I came to these numbers after doing some research on this forum and seeing that the general consensus with these cars is to get as much negative camber as you can, try to minimize toe at the front to keep the tires from wearing unevenly, and a small amount of toe in at the rear so the back end doesn't get too squirrely. Do I have that right?

Anyways, after what feels like too long I get called up to the desk to talk to the service manager who states that they got it aligned to my specs but it isn't handling well at all. If the steering wheel got off center at all the car would pull in real hard and he didn't think it was safe to let the car leave like that. I didn't get a chance to drive the car but I took his word for it and agreed to let them play around with the toe.

After a short while longer, this is what i got the car back at:


I was hopping for a little more front camber but with everything stock except for the control arms and un-adjustable camber plates, I'm not surprised. So far I haven't taken many turns other than going up and down the levels of a parking garage. But the car definitely does turn in better. I was worried that the zero toe at the back would be an issue, but so far it feels manageable. I guess the true test of the new alignment will be at the next autocross in a couple weeks.

I am a bit worried about the tow in at the front. Is anyone else running similar toe that can speak to any issue with tire wear or lack thereof?
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      09-24-2018, 08:40 PM   #2
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Am I reading the printout correctly? If so, I'd expect pretty bad tire wear. Nearly 3 deg toe-in at the front is a lot. That's something like ~ 30mm.

Was the car handling normal before you did the work? Do this shop have a good reputation?
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      09-24-2018, 08:48 PM   #3
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If I'm reading this right, one of your back wheels has toe in and the other has toe out?

2 degrees of toe in on each front wheels seems excessive. From what I recall toe in from factory should be between 1/16 - 1/8. You have 2 degrees.

Also, my car with a 1 inch drop, dinan camber plates and m3 control arms can get 2.5 degrees of camber in the front.

But there is truth to 0 toe handling like doo doo on the street. 0 toe + negative camber = wandering wheels and even less stability under hard braking. I ran it for a while and had to go back to get some positive toe dialed back in. It wasn't safe.

It sounds to me like the shop didn't actually align the car twice for your safety but rather half assed 1 alignment.

I got my car aligned at a BMW dealer only because they aligned it for me for $100, but they would get my toe exactly spot on at what i requested.
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      09-24-2018, 09:06 PM   #4
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yeah nearly 3 degrees of toe in at the front. Because it had taken so long I had to rush out of there to get to work and didn't have a chance to look over the specs until later. Wish I had sooner.

Before the work the car was handling like a normal 128i with staggered wheels, lots of understeer. The goal of the control arms and camber plates was to get it acting a bit more neutral and get more grip in the front. (As well as more even wear of the front tires, but it looks like that hasn't been achieved yet.)

I took it to a bmw dealer because I needed an alignment ASAP and the indy shop I would normally use has a week wait to get anything scheduled. The dealer has decent reviews but I'd guess more track focused alignments aren't really their specialty.
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      09-24-2018, 09:11 PM   #5
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That front toe is just wrong. Everything else is OK, but that's way too much toe-in. Don't let anyone tell you the car "isn't handling well" - that's your decision to make, and anyone driving autox or on the track is not using the same standards of "handling well" as the average road drone.
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      09-24-2018, 09:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhb View Post
If I'm reading this right, one of your back wheels has toe in and the other has toe out?

2 degrees of toe in on each front wheels seems excessive. From what I recall toe in from factory should be between 1/16 - 1/8. You have 2 degrees.

Also, my car with a 1 inch drop, dinan camber plates and m3 control arms can get 2.5 degrees of camber in the front.

But there is truth to 0 toe handling like doo doo on the street. 0 toe + negative camber = wandering wheels and even less stability under hard braking. I ran it for a while and had to go back to get some positive toe dialed back in. It wasn't safe.

It sounds to me like the shop didn't actually align the car twice for your safety but rather half assed 1 alignment.

I got my car aligned at a BMW dealer only because they aligned it for me for $100, but they would get my toe exactly spot on at what i requested.

I think you're looking at the initial column. It started out with 1 wheel positive and 1 wheel negative, but ended up at both wheels negative.

Do you think the 1" drop could be contributed the entire 0.5 degree increase in negative camber you have over me? I could see it adding some but 0.5 degree is a fair amount.

I guess at this point It's sounding like I should have another shop, more familiar with track alignments, take a stab at it.
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      09-24-2018, 09:22 PM   #7
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I have a Dinan camber plates running a B12 kit (10mm lower than Msport suspension) and I have about -2 degrees of camber. So with control arms I'd expect to be at around -2.5 or so.

I think the ride height is what is holding you at -2, if you had M sport suspension or any other kit that lowered the car, you'd see more negative camber up front.

The front toe I agree looks completely wrong....didn't think they could mess it up that much honestly!
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      09-24-2018, 09:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asbrr View Post
I have a Dinan camber plates running a B12 kit (10mm lower than Msport suspension) and I have about -2 degrees of camber. So with control arms I'd expect to be at around -2.5 or so.

I think the ride height is what is holding you at -2, if you had M sport suspension or any other kit that lowered the car, you'd see more negative camber up front.

The front toe I agree looks completely wrong....didn't think they could mess it up that much honestly!
And I guess technically I'm closer to -2.15 degree of camber, so agreed, probably not going to get much better as is.

So i just realized the time stamp on the print out would have lined up with the first time they "aligned" the car. Does anyone know if the equipment used by BMW dealers would let them re-run an alignment with an old time stamp or if it would create a new alignment sheet with the current time?
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      09-25-2018, 12:20 AM   #9
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A little more camber would be nice but what you got isn't bad at all.

The toe is so far out there I wonder if it is even correct. There may be something to your comment about the time stamp. You'd have to try to get 3deg of toe.
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      09-25-2018, 06:48 AM   #10
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As a BMW alignment tech.

Holy crap!!! Get that fixed ASAP!!! Your front tires are going to get fried in a week!!!

They set the front toe to 2.57 deg toe in on both sides. What the actual f$&@k!!

And they gave you toe OUT in the rear, not toe in.


Ask for front toe to be set to zero if they are that bad.

Seriously, who ever did this has no idea what they are doing.

To remember if +/- is in or out, I have a saying.

If you walk up behind a girl and grab her waist, and your hands go out, that is bad, or negative. If you walk up behind another girl, grab her waist, and your hands go in, that is good, or positive.
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      09-25-2018, 09:15 AM   #11
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Negative toe
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      09-25-2018, 09:16 AM   #12
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Positive toe
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      09-25-2018, 05:26 PM   #13
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Haha, never thought of it quite like that. But that is the convention I've always followed, positive = wheels in towards the center-line while moving forward. I thought that was the generally accepted convention, but it's looking like it may not be universal...

Somewhat of an update, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this. So I talked to the service adviser from yesterday. He hasn't been able to turn up record of the other alignment yet, but from the notes he made for the tech it looks like I was misheard.

I said something along the lines of:
"In the front, I'm looking for maximum negative camber, which should be between -2 and -3 degrees, And 0 toe. In the rear I'm also looking for the most negative camber possible but it will probably be less, and around 1/16" to 1/8" of toe in."

What ended up on the notes for the technician was:
Front: max negative camber, -2 degrees
-3 to 0 toe
Rear: -2 degree camber
1/16" to 1/8" toe in.

Knowing that, it looks like the alignment sheet I have is from the initial alignment. Now it sounds like someone in the line of work of doing alignments would instantly see 3 degrees of toe and know something was off, but that's whatever. Based off of that it looks like they were thinking of - toe as "toe in" and + toe as toe out. For a 25.4" diameter tire with 0.03 degrees of toe you end up roughly 0.03" of toe for one wheel, 1/16" total. So they got the amount of toe right, they just went the wrong way....

Moral of the story is that I don't believe my car currently has 3 degrees of toe in. I just have no idea what the actual alignment specs are.
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      09-25-2018, 05:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb_ View Post
Haha, never thought of it quite like that. But that is the convention I've always followed, positive = wheels in towards the center-line while moving forward. I thought that was the generally accepted convention, but it's looking like it may not be universal...

Somewhat of an update, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this. So I talked to the service adviser from yesterday. He hasn't been able to turn up record of the other alignment yet, but from the notes he made for the tech it looks like I was misheard.

I said something along the lines of:
"In the front, I'm looking for maximum negative camber, which should be between -2 and -3 degrees, And 0 toe. In the rear I'm also looking for the most negative camber possible but it will probably be less, and around 1/16" to 1/8" of toe in."

What ended up on the notes for the technician was:
Front: max negative camber, -2 degrees
-3 to 0 toe
Rear: -2 degree camber
1/16" to 1/8" toe in.

Knowing that, it looks like the alignment sheet I have is from the initial alignment. Now it sounds like someone in the line of work of doing alignments would instantly see 3 degrees of toe and know something was off, but that's whatever. Based off of that it looks like they were thinking of - toe as "toe in" and + toe as toe out. For a 25.4" diameter tire with 0.03 degrees of toe you end up roughly 0.03" of toe for one wheel, 1/16" total. So they got the amount of toe right, they just went the wrong way....

Moral of the story is that I don't believe my car currently has 3 degrees of toe in. I just have no idea what the actual alignment specs are.

I'd take it back and have the shop put it on the rack and give you the specs. Just to be comfortable.
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      09-25-2018, 05:34 PM   #15
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That's the plan unless they can turn up the spec sheet from the second alignment in the next day.
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      09-26-2018, 10:22 AM   #16
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I have the Dinan plates and M3 arms. I've got about -2.4-2.5 degrees of camber and 1/16" toe out (it's been awhile) in the front. It handles really nicely. I've also got about -1.5 degrees of camber in the rear, with 1/16" toe in. When I shot for zero toe, I got that uneasy over-centering feeling that your shop described...
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      09-28-2018, 05:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
I'd take it back and have the shop put it on the rack and give you the specs. Just to be comfortable.
I don't think I would feel comfortable with them working on my car again, I think you could give yourself a better alignment at home with toe plates and a camber tool.
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      09-29-2018, 10:40 AM   #18
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For sure. To the naked eye it looks like after the second allignment there's still way too much toe. Even if the dealer was to offer to put it up on the rack free of charge to get me the spec sheet they misplaced, I will likely need another alignment and I don't want it to be from them.

I managed to get an appointment with another shop before the next autocross so we'll see. I've never had work done by them before but they have a good reputation and have more expirience with track prepped cars. I expect this alignment to go smoother
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      10-17-2018, 02:31 AM   #19
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Looks like there may have been a misunderstanding or miscommunication..

You can falsify the date/time by mucking around with the Windows date/time settings but it is almost pointless. If tech A stuffs up the alignment, tech B should be able to restore it to at least near factory spec
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      10-20-2018, 03:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juld0zer View Post
Looks like there may have been a misunderstanding or miscommunication..

You can falsify the date/time by mucking around with the Windows date/time settings but it is almost pointless. If tech A stuffs up the alignment, tech B should be able to restore it to at least near factory spec
It was definitely a miscomunication that lead to this first attempt at alignment being bad. I'm not quite sure what lead to the second one still being off.

I ended up taking it to a second shop and their initial measurements showed that after the dealer, both the front and the rear had one wheel with toe in and one wheel with toe out!
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