Rear Sway Bar Options

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by RyanDavies

I will say that I think the posts *you* have made are fine.

Suggestions like running mega-soft front rates and unhooking the front bar on a car with a miserable camber curve to begin with. Suggestions that "OMG these consumer level coilovers for the street have softer rear rates so that's optimal!" Suggestions that because a shock can jack down a spring it's great for a given spring? Come on...

And for some reason people here continue to suggest mega-soft rates. I'm sure I know why, because they're running pretty awful cheap dampers without even bothering to look at a shock dyno, and wonder why the car rides poorly, so soften the springs as a band-aid.

The way I see it, there are two reasonable options to balance the car, run a lot of rear spring (which again, looking at wheel rates, isn't that much), or run something like the 20mm bar I have, the 19mm UUC bar Kyle has, or an OEM M3 rear bar (the route I'd go now if I were developing the car). The vert bar is larger than the sedan/coupe bar.

Given the front camber curve, I would run as stiff as one reasonably could up front for a given surface while still maintaining some semblance of compliance. The front of the car is also really limited on static camber (the highest numbers I'm aware of were in the mid/high-3s for Kyle, and I don't know that many others have been able to get there. When I had the JRZ plates, I also had offset bushings and was at mid-3s. Still not really enough. It was okay on RE71s as they don't seem to want as much camber as other tires, but if I'd run BFGs or a Hoosier on the car, I'd be doing everything I can to maintain camber in roll / increase static camber. The rear of the car is basically the exact opposite, in that it gains a ton of camber in roll, so you really don't need very much back there (especially with these soft rear rates, the rear will compress a ton, I know Kyle has some picture of the rear wheel totally buried in the well in Pittsburgh).

This picture was on 575/1200, and it is still rolling a ton, and you can see the deflected front tire going positive even with ~3.4 degrees of camber.

The pic doesn't look to me like the WHEEL is going positive. It looks to me like youre asking your tires to handle too much load and they are rolling over onto their sidewall. Zoom in on the outer front tire. More static camber doesn't solve that but maybe higher tire pressure would.

Softer rates that allow more droop is ideal when youre riding curbing on a roadcourse or driving in the shitty parking lots like in the above pics lol. It has nothing to do with whether or not the coilovers are "consumer grade." It has to do with how perfectly flat the surface your driving on is.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

The pic doesn't look to me like the WHEEL is going positive. It looks to me like youre asking your tires to handle too much load and they are rolling over onto their sidewall. Zoom in on the outer front tire. More static camber doesn't solve that but maybe higher tire pressure would.

Softer rates that allow more droop is ideal when youre riding curbing on a roadcourse or driving in the shitty parking lots like in the above pics lol. It has nothing to do with whether or not the coilovers are "consumer grade." It has to do with how perfectly flat the surface your driving on is.

Well, there it is.

Clearly Ryan, you were rolling on the sidewall

I don't know how to tell you, but you're 100% wrong with all the above statements. That isn't a parking lot. But okay you can think that.

Also, we haven't seen 0 pictures or videos from you dude. So you can go ahead and continue on Mr. Keyboard warrior

[bionicbelly]

In for video.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Well, there it is.

Clearly Ryan, you were rolling on the sidewall

I don't know how to tell you, but you're 100% wrong with all the above statements. That isn't a parking lot. But okay you can think that.

Also, we haven't seen 0 pictures or videos from you dude. So you can go ahead and continue on Mr. Keyboard warrior

So defensive over the parking lot statement lol. It's shitty pavement. You don't run big sways bars on shitty pavement because you lift wheels. That is what the point of the post was and your own pictures show exactly why.

What exactly am I wrong about? Do you ever add value to any conversation you take part in?

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

So defensive over the parking lot statement lol. It's shitty pavement. You don't run big sways bars on shitty pavement because you lift wheels. That is what the point of the post was and your own pictures show exactly why.

What exactly am I wrong about? Do you ever add value to any conversation you take part in?

Lifting a tire is bad? I always thought it was mandatory to be truly fast in any BMW.

Also,

"It looks to me like youre asking your tires to handle too much load and they are rolling over onto their sidewall."

I am not sure if you peruse event photos very much, but if you are not doing exactly this to your tires, you are not getting the most out of them. That is a photo of a healthy tire, doing what it is designed to do.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

So defensive over the parking lot statement lol. It's shitty pavement. You don't run big sways bars on shitty pavement because you lift wheels. That is what the point of the post was and your own pictures show exactly why.

What exactly am I wrong about? Do you ever add value to any conversation you take part in?

How exactly you know it's shitty pavement again? From one static picture?

Here is another picture of the same concrete. Does it look shitty still?



You're completely wrong about "tire rolling on the sidewall" In fact, it isn't rolling over the sidewall at all, it's called actual grip. You know, something that happens when you actually drive the car.

You really have no value to add about autocross or anything related to it, as clearly you think that you know everything about autox when you don't at all

[bionicbelly]

Hey, dude in the orange shirt and hat is my good friend Luke! Drives that 186 BRZ. Hell of a nice guy. Been driving with him for years, and mount some tires for him.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

Hey, dude in the orange shirt and hat is my good friend Luke! Drives that 186 BRZ. Hell of a nice guy. Been driving with him for years, and mount some tires for him.

That was my codriver, and his name was not Luke lol.

And no Luke drove that particular BRZ

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

That was my codriver, and his name was not Luke lol.

And no Luke drove that particular BRZ

Yeah, I was COMPLETELY mistaken, and tried to delete that.

In fact, I had totally forgotten that he had moved from STX back to street. Anyway, pretty sure Luke would love your co driver's hat.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

How exactly you know it's shitty pavement again? From one static picture?

Here is another picture of the same concrete. Does it look shitty still?

You really have no value to add about autocross or anything related to it, as clearly you think that you know everything about autox when you don't at all

Looks pretty shitty here, yes:


WHEN DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT AUTOCROSS EVER?

YOUR OWN WORDS "Oh, you mean this one? Granted, this was cause of a massive dip/bump...but yea, that shock did compress probably to it's full extent lol"

Now all of the sudden the pavement was good and not bumpy? WTF ARE YOU EVEN TRYING TO ARGUE?

This was the results of the final auto-x of the season around here (Metro PCA event): http://metronypca.org/ax_results/201...finale-raw.htm

I am not the fastest driver, and this was my first season of autocross, but look at my times vs the handful of prosolo drivers that outpaced me. The FRS was on r-comps for this event. The WRX is a prosolo SM car tuned to the T running on r-comps as well. I don't need videos and pictures of the car to discuss suspension tuning. Then you guys post pictures that completely contradict what you're saying. It's laughable.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

You're completely wrong about "tire rolling on the sidewall" In fact, it isn't rolling over the sidewall at all, it's called actual grip. You know, something that happens when you actually drive the car.

If the tire isn't on its sidewall then why is Ryan stating he needs more camber? You are making 0 sense. That tire is past its optimal contact patch. Ryan said so himself.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

Lifting a tire is bad? I always thought it was mandatory to be truly fast in any BMW.

Also,

"It looks to me like youre asking your tires to handle too much load and they are rolling over onto their sidewall."

I am not sure if you peruse event photos very much, but if you are not doing exactly this to your tires, you are not getting the most out of them. That is a photo of a healthy tire, doing what it is designed to do.

Yes, in general, RWD cars tend to be setup in a way that lifts the inside front tire. And, FWD typically lift the inside rear tire.

This entire thread is in the context of UNDERSTEER. Did you lose track of that? If you are lifting the inside front tire under acceleration that pretty much pinpoints exactly how to solve corner exit understeer. Increase your rear spring rate. Hence why I asked OP to clarify WHERE the understeer is occurring. Go back to my "corner exit" recommendations I posted on page 2. I am really lost on what people are trying to argue in this thread.

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Yes, in general, RWD cars tend to be setup in a way that lifts the inside front tire. And, FWD typically lift the inside rear tire.

This entire thread is in the context of UNDERSTEER. Did you lose track of that? If you are lifting the inside front tire under acceleration that pretty much pinpoints exactly how to solve corner exit understeer. Increase your rear spring rate. Hence why I asked OP to clarify WHERE the understeer is occurring. Go back to my "corner exit" recommendations I posted on page 2. I am really lost on what people are trying to argue in this thread.

If you want to get rid of one wheel lift, you add rebound in the rear (RWD BMW) of reduce rebound in the front. Also, lifting a wheel does not mean understeer. It generally happens after the steering is beginning to be dialed out, and throttle applied. Always on corner exit. Not mid corner. Steering is done, and you are on to other things.

Also, I will reiterate what I stated earlier, If you are getting understeer, and your goal is to balance the car, Fix the front. Nothing that I have ever experienced would indicate adding a rear bar would increase front grip.
Not saying it isn't possible, Just saying that I have dicked with it some on other cars, and never came to that conclusion.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

If you want to get rid of one wheel lift, you add rebound in the rear (RWD BMW) of reduce rebound in the front. Also, lifting a wheel does not mean understeer. It generally happens after the steering is beginning to be dialed out, and throttle applied. Always on corner exit. Not mid corner. Steering is done, and you are on to other things.

That is completely opposite of what I would do. Lifting the inside front wheel under acceleration is the result of rear squat. You would increase FRONT rebound damping and increase REAR compression damping. That would keep the front from lifting. You wouldn't need to play with the cars handling using your dampers at all if you started with a neutral spring/sway setup though.

Increasing rear rebound wouldn't do anything to prevent the front wheel from lifting. Reducing front rebound would only help if the lifting is NOT cause by squat and droop limits but rather by too much rebound damping. Not as likely to be the issue since we are talking about RWD cars that are running relatively soft rear springs and relatively stiff front spring with limited droop up front.

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

Also, I will reiterate what I stated earlier, If you are getting understeer, and your goal is to balance the car, Fix the front. Nothing that I have ever experienced would indicate adding a rear bar would increase front grip.
Not saying it isn't possible, Just saying that I have dicked with it some on other cars, and never came to that conclusion.

This is also what I said lol? talk to Kyle and Ryan they are the autocross pros saying the only way to have a fast 1-series is to put an aftermarket rear sway on it. They have the picture and videos to prove it! No one is saying it won't work either before you jump down my throat.

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

That is completely opposite of what I would do. Lifting the inside front wheel under acceleration is the result of rear squat. You would increase FRONT rebound damping and increase REAR compression damping. That would keep the front from lifting. You wouldn't need to play with the cars handling using your dampers at all if you started with a neutral spring/sway setup though.

Increasing rear rebound wouldn't do anything to prevent the front wheel from lifting. Reducing front rebound would only help if the lifting is NOT cause by squat and droop limits but rather by too much rebound damping. Not as likely to be the issue since we are talking about RWD cars that are running relatively soft rear springs and relatively stiff front spring with limited droop up front.



This is also what I said lol? talk to Kyle and Ryan they are the autocross pros saying the only way to have a fast 1-series is to put an aftermarket rear sway on it. They have the picture and videos to prove it! No one is saying it won't work either before you jump down my throat.

Ok? I have stopped caring.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

Ok? I have stopped caring.

That tends to happen when you try to be a smart-ass and then say something completely wrong in the process.

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

That tends to happen when you try to be a smart-ass and then say something completely wrong in the process.

You are right man. I totally bow to your awesomeness. I am actually really impressed how you have handled yourself in the face of such adversity. Very manly.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

You are right man. I totally bow to your awesomeness. I am actually really impressed how you have handled yourself in the face of such adversity. Very manly.

Just remember, if you're not lifting tires then you're not fast

[bionicbelly]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Just remember, if you're not lifting tires then you're not fast

Judging from the dainty wrists I see in your videos, I hope you didn't give yourself a stress fracture typing that.

Dude, what are you, like 18? 19? Stop getting all butthurt cause you are wrong. It is fine, you are young. I know it is hard to think, but you don't know everything yet. And, it is fine.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by bionicbelly

Judging from the dainty wrists I see in your videos, I hope you didn't give yourself a stress fracture typing that.

Dude, what are you, like 18? 19? Stop getting all butthurt cause you are wrong. It is fine, you are young. I know it is hard to think, but you don't know everything yet. And, it is fine.

Waiting on your videos and pictures. Maybe some auto-x results too? That's how we discuss suspension tuning around here.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Waiting on your videos and pictures. Maybe some auto-x results too? That's how we discuss suspension tuning around here.

Perhaps I should list my mods. That makes me total credible and makes it seem like I am the shit.

So is this how it goes?

FRS: 93 Octane Map by MotoEast, Tomei Header, JDL OP, JDL Resonated Catted Front Pipe, Perrin Cat-Back, 17x9 RPF1s, 245/40 BFGoodrich RivalS 1.5s, MCS 2-Way Remote Canister Shocks, Raceseng Front and Rear Plates, aFe Intake, Battery Tender 3lb Battery, Whiteline Subframe Inserts, RacerX LCAs, RacerX Front and Rear Endlinks, Perrin 22mm Swaybar, Mann Engineering 13mm Swaybar, AP Racing Sprint BBK, Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads

I think that's it. There...totally credible now

[RyanDavies]

I wouldn't want to use results as a bar if I were a second slower than a stock Kia Forte when you're on race tires either:

http://autox4u.com/nnjrlive/results.html

Or maybe 4.6 seconds slower than an FRS with Shocks, Springs, and bars:
https://metronypca.org/ax_results/20...ocross_raw.htm

ELL OH ELL.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Looks pretty shitty here, yes:


WHEN DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT AUTOCROSS EVER?

YOUR OWN WORDS "Oh, you mean this one? Granted, this was cause of a massive dip/bump...but yea, that shock did compress probably to it's full extent lol"

How does that look shitty? Because the car is loaded up after a 75' slalom and happens to be a pad change right there?

Also, doesn't take a Genius to figure out those 2 pictures are from different events. In fact...here they are. You can see where there is a damn drainage grate that we drove right past which caused a bump, smartass.