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07-22-2007, 07:17 PM | #67 | |
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The truth is, though, you really wouldnt want to do many of those cluthless shifts in the Honda, thus making the clutch a major part of the action if you were to drive the car for longevity. And also, there is a difference between the actual physical action of shifting a MT and an AT. In the AT you do not have to "find" the gear like in a MT, you just hit a stick a single uniform direction. To me, the MT will always provide a more engaged driving experience :iono:. |
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07-22-2007, 08:00 PM | #68 |
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I agree with both the last posts. I personally find shifting a fully manual transmission more fun, but the fact is, my wife will have to be able to drive this third car, so that is out. Sequential, auto-shifting manuals are excellent transmissions, and I'll be fine with one, as long as it proves to be good for performance. I'm not sure the SMG qualifies for that, but the SST on the Evo X is looking rather promising.
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07-22-2007, 08:12 PM | #69 | ||
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I fully understand what you're saying. The MT at least feels like it "belongs" in the 1er. I would never say that about the E90. |
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07-22-2007, 08:13 PM | #70 |
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Oh wow.. I know it's doable, but you did clutchless shift on your daily driver "all the time"? I don't know if I should envy your skill, or feel sorry for your Si.
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07-22-2007, 08:16 PM | #71 |
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07-22-2007, 08:29 PM | #72 | |
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Guilty as charged. That was hyperbole. "All the time" means "a couple times a day", when I was bored. Or trying to show off. Of the two, you should feel more sorry for the tranny. The car was stolen right out of our garage (while we were home!), so I'll never know how long the box would've lasted. |
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07-22-2007, 08:55 PM | #73 | |
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I cut my teeth on the glory days of CART. At the tender age of 13 I was in the motor home infield at Portland Intenational Raceway when Al Unser, Jr. won his first career race. That's when my interest in motorsports was born. Even then, 23 years ago, when they showed an in-car camera, you saw the driver nudging a stubbly little lever back and forth when "shifting". I just couldn't figure out how they could change gears without using the clutch and by just moving a stick backwards and forwards as they braked hard at the end of a stretch or accelerated out of a corner. Ever since then, MY personal sports car dream was to someday have a car that I could ratchet through the gears in the exact same way. For years I have looked forward to bwarrrr-bwarrrr-bwarrring down through the gears as quickly as I can punch the palm of my hand against the gear selector, just like those CART drivers I began watching 20 some-odd years ago. After a bunch of teases in the form of the horrible "manumatics" that so many manufacturers have put in cars over the last 5 years or so, these new trannies from BMW finally give me that "personal open-wheel racer" experience I've wanted for so long. |
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07-22-2007, 09:39 PM | #74 |
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Will DSG be available at launch? If DSG is an option then it might muddle my decision but if not I get manual. I am not waiting for DSG either. The next 8 month is going to be a long wait.
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07-22-2007, 09:45 PM | #75 |
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I guess the deciding factors for me will be cost and weight. Sure, the differences in both may be negligible, but I have to have some sort of reasoning to base my choice on, right?
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07-22-2007, 10:49 PM | #76 |
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my first car was an automatic integra. 4 cylinders and 4 speeds that you dont control when they get switched between has tainted (somewhat unfairly) automatics as far as what i want to be in control of for the rest of my life. yeah, paddle shifted or aggresively designed automatics would probably cut lap times when it comes down to it.. but the bottom line is that while im driving around town, in time, im going to just leave it in auto and be lazy and push on the gas.. its just not fun. and its something nobody can describe in words. its the rawness. its the opposite of the "softness" that plagues too many cars today and is the reason we're excited for the 1er - what the 3series of today should be, a driver's car and it creates a closeness with the car and the road when you are in total control. and honestly the fact that the 1 series will have a true manual even available is a big attraction to me, too many of the other cars i would be considering wont even have it available (cough, lexus).
even though to be honest, with hybrids and electric technology and intelligent engine/powertrain management and control from the ECU we're undoubtedly heading towards a world of automatics.. also does anybody know if the diesels (in UK etc) come with manual transmissions? hopefully they would do the same over here.. |
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07-22-2007, 11:02 PM | #77 |
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07-22-2007, 11:30 PM | #78 |
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I am planning on a manual for both the enjoyment and the cost savings (I am lucky as my wife can drive a manual). If BMW offers a true DSG-type transmission, it will make the decision a little harder.
I have mostly had manual transmission cars with a few automatics thrown in, including my current car. The problem I find with most automatics is that you lose that "direct" feeling with the car that a manual provides (that is the best way I know how to describe it), not to mention the loss of hp from the torque converter. I know BMW's new automatic locks-up the torque converter and I have not driven a car with that transmission, so I cannot say if it feels like a manual or not. I have driven a VW with the DSG and I find it a much better experience than a regular automatic, but also not as fun as a manual. It is definitely the best option for those that want/need an auto. When I got my Legacy GT I opted for the auto because I drove in traffic everyday that was getting a little tiresome with my 5sp WRX. The Legacy has a 5sp auto with steptronic-type control and I thought this would be the best compromise between a manual and auto, but after living with it I would rather have a manual, even in traffic. The main reason is the loss of that "direct" feel and the delay in shifting in certain circumstances. I also recently drove a 2004 330i convertible with an auto and it did not seem to have the power I thought it would. I am trying to find one with a manual to drive but have not yet been successful (I have driven a 330i sedan with a manual that I liked very much). Oh well, I just wanted to add my thoughts to this thread. |
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07-23-2007, 12:34 AM | #79 |
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This thread amuses me.
If the 135 was going to be available with a servo-controlled CLUTCH based "automatic" trans then this subject would be worthy of debate. But since it's only available with an old-school torque converter b!tchstick, this is just an argument between performance drivers, and, well...not. |
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07-23-2007, 01:33 AM | #80 |
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07-23-2007, 02:18 AM | #81 | |
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In everyday, not superhuman driving, as great as these new automatics are, there is still a feeling of 'virtual' reality to it for me. There is no finesse, EVERYONE will get the same feeling when they execute a shift from 2nd to 3rd in the auto, because it's actually the computer that executes it. You'll never hear from from a passenger, 'niiiiiiiiiiiice' as you execute a perfect shift and chirp the tires just a lil bit. Manual gives you a chance to change gears with style man, not just change gears. :biggrin: Also there are a lot of little things for me about manual. I love being in neutral waiting at a light and jiggling the stick. (That just sounds wrong). I love not having to sit on the brake when I come to stop. I love not having to start the car if I need to move it 1 inch on the driveway for something. I love the peace of mind that not every1 can drive stick. I love stick for everyday. If I were buying an F430 Scuderia for track duty, if there were no performance disadvantages with the seq man, I would likely go that route. I know I can't outshift the computer. |
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07-23-2007, 03:35 AM | #82 |
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All the manual vs auto talk reminded me of 1 of my fave vid clips featuring bmw's. This is why I love BMW and why I just can't imagine getting them in auto.
BMW Films - Star. Woohoo!! How boring would this have been if the car were auto??? |
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07-23-2007, 09:34 AM | #84 | ||||
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I will also concede that evolution of these gearboxes is making it much more difficult to decide between the two. The only requirement on their part is to not be too overruling. When some of these gearboxes have problems that shift for you when you get close to the redline, it nearly ruins the driving experience for me. I believe some of the new BMWs dont do that. Regardless, the shift times are remarkable and with the ability to blip the throttle on the downchanges, the gearboxes are becoming more and more fun. Just not as fun as a manual... Quote:
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07-23-2007, 12:55 PM | #85 | |
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But like I said, I fully understand why some of you find great enjoyment in an MT. I guess the only point I was really trying to make is that there are some of us driving enthusiasts out here who know a thing or two about performance driving and don't feel the need to have an MT just to have a "true", "connected" driving experience, as some have stated. |
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07-23-2007, 12:57 PM | #86 |
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07-23-2007, 01:01 PM | #87 | |
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07-23-2007, 01:26 PM | #88 | |||
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I know this is hard to understand, but I've always longed for a transmission that I could "shift" the way the CART and F1 (though they use steering wheel buttons now) drivers I watched on TV did. Your statement stirs a sort of "analog vs. digital" analogy in my mind. The analog things in life are always going to be the more interactive, engaging, and beautifully crafted, while the digital things are always going to be boring, antiseptic and bland. But for some reason I've always been a "digital" guy. I don't care about the feel of shifting gears so much as the action associated with it. I remember watching so many clips of CART drivers screaming down the straight at Portland International Raceway, then jumping on the binders to set up for the Festival Curves right hander, while bang-bang-banging down through the gears simply by palming the lever and nudging it forward rapidly. THAT'S what I want to be able to do in my car. Here's another analogy. Do you think there was a time, years ago, when people said that a car with power steering doesn't give you the "connected" driving experience that true performance enthusiasts like? But look at the absolute wonders BMW have done with their vehicles and power steering. Who would even consider calling for a non-power steering car now? Quote:
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