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      07-31-2010, 10:15 AM   #1
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I'm not impressed with this "is" engine

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

4.6sec to 60mph
11.4 to 100mph

13.3@108mph

Keep in mind this is in the 35XX lb 335is. The 1 is a good 1XXlb lighter but the numbers shouldn't be too off. Lucky for us, the "is" cars weren't designed/engineered in the same place as the 1M.


On average the M3 mag testing are doing 4.2sec to 60mph, 10.0sec to 100mph and 12.6@113mph. Even another 30k car that need not be mentioned does a lot better than that.

I'm still a believer this motor is based off of the N55.


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      07-31-2010, 11:31 AM   #2
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You know... I have found thru my Autobahn "testing" that a stock 135i (mines a N54) is just as fast as an e92 M3! Atleast until the 135i's speed limiter kicks in at 155mph. The last one I "raced" it was too much for the M3 driver. He really was mad.

It got me thinking... if I had a BMW perf kit... I bet that 20 PS and extra oomph(TQ)... would mean a 135i would be about three car lengths in front of a M3 at speed. BMW doesn't quote a whole lotta of PS(HP) but they do show the acel times are much faster WITH thier perf kit. Esp when they quote in gear acceleration which is real world types of autobahn racing.
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      07-31-2010, 01:10 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
You know... I have found thru my Autobahn "testing" that a stock 135i (mines a N54) is just as fast as an e92 M3! Atleast until the 135i's speed limiter kicks in at 155mph. The last one I "raced" it was too much for the M3 driver. He really was mad.

It got me thinking... if I had a BMW perf kit... I bet that 20 PS and extra oomph(TQ)... would mean a 135i would be about three car lengths in front of a M3 at speed. BMW doesn't quote a whole lotta of PS(HP) but they do show the acel times are much faster WITH thier perf kit. Esp when they quote in gear acceleration which is real world types of autobahn racing.
You are out of your mind. Your little 135 & 335's run at of oomph at 100Mph this where the M3's N/A V8 eats turbo cars up. Hit me up nest time you are around Nurburgring. We can match your 135I against my M3 in any performance category you choose to include the Nordschleife.
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      07-31-2010, 01:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Trier Germany View Post
You are out of your mind. Your little 135 & 335's run at of oomph at 100Mph this where the M3's N/A V8 eats turbo cars up. Hit me up nest time you are around Nurburgring. We can match your 135I against my M3 in any performance category you choose to include the Nordschleife.
Umm, think again, the turbo engines pull all the way to redline, your V8 is good for off the line grunt, and falls at speed. You have it twisted man. Thats all that the NA V8 is for, low end grunt.

Turbos are top end heaven.
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      07-31-2010, 01:39 PM   #5
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If a 135i is faster than an M3, it means the person sitting behind the steering wheel of the M3 is a very bad driver, and does not know when to shift.
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      07-31-2010, 01:41 PM   #6
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One important thing the 1M will have - more traction.
But I don't really care how fast it gets to 62.
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      07-31-2010, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
Umm, think again, the turbo engines pull all the way to redline, your V8 is good for off the line grunt, and falls at speed. You have it twisted man. Thats all that the NA V8 is for, low end grunt.

Turbos are top end heaven.
off the line grunt equals your 135I you have it all twisted your car has more torque by 5 ft lbs. N/A equals high revving Hp when yo have a true ///M engine 414 at 8300rpm. try and spool your turbo motor that high!


Hello your turbo does not pull all the way to redline! First of all i'm not starting a M3 superiority thing i just want to state facts ok. BMW factory Specs for the M3 Maximum output/414hp/8300 rpm
Maximum torque/rpm295lb-ft/3900 rpm

M3 equals max Hp at redline!


135 specs below you run out of oomph at 5000 once your torque goes flat and when you are flat out at over 100 mph your little 1 series cant pull like an M3


Nominal output @ rpm300 hp@ 5800 rpm
Maximum torque 300lb-ft @ 1200-5000 rpm

Once the 335 guys save enough cash they purchase an M3 and don't look back. It is a waste of your time and speed to pull your car to 6000 rpm once your torque curve goes flat that extra 800 rpm does yo no good. The M3 power band is so linear it keeps making power from it's max torque all the way to redline. I played around with plenty of 335 and 135 on the autobahn once you hit 100mph the M3 walks away well your turbos are beging for air!
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      07-31-2010, 01:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
Umm, think again, the turbo engines pull all the way to redline, your V8 is good for off the line grunt, and falls at speed. You have it twisted man. Thats all that the NA V8 is for, low end grunt.

Turbos are top end heaven.
That's just not true. The M3 continues to build horsepower (414 of them) all the way to the 8000 redline while the S54 stops making power at 6000 rpm.
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      07-31-2010, 02:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
You know... I have found thru my Autobahn "testing" that a stock 135i (mines a N54) is just as fast as an e92 M3! Atleast until the 135i's speed limiter kicks in at 155mph. The last one I "raced" it was too much for the M3 driver. He really was mad.

It got me thinking... if I had a BMW perf kit... I bet that 20 PS and extra oomph(TQ)... would mean a 135i would be about three car lengths in front of a M3 at speed. BMW doesn't quote a whole lotta of PS(HP) but they do show the acel times are much faster WITH thier perf kit. Esp when they quote in gear acceleration which is real world types of autobahn racing.
don't want to turn this into a flame fest, but this statement is 100% false.
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      07-31-2010, 02:22 PM   #10
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If Dackelone with his 135i was faster than M3, it is just because the M3 drivers did not want to use petrol for nothing.
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      07-31-2010, 02:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
If a 135i is faster than an M3, it means the person sitting behind the steering wheel of the M3 is a very bad driver, and does not know when to shift.
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      07-31-2010, 04:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
You know... I have found thru my Autobahn "testing" that a stock 135i (mines a N54) is just as fast as an e92 M3! Atleast until the 135i's speed limiter kicks in at 155mph. The last one I "raced" it was too much for the M3 driver. He really was mad.

It got me thinking... if I had a BMW perf kit... I bet that 20 PS and extra oomph(TQ)... would mean a 135i would be about three car lengths in front of a M3 at speed. BMW doesn't quote a whole lotta of PS(HP) but they do show the acel times are much faster WITH thier perf kit. Esp when they quote in gear acceleration which is real world types of autobahn racing.
As many others have stated, this is completely false. An M3 will reach 140mph about 8 seconds faster than a stock 135i. It even reaches it faster than a 335i with a DINAN Stage 3 kit.

In racing 8 seconds is MASSIVE. You would barely be able to tell what kind of car that is way in front of you. The N54/5 shines in terms of midrange against a 6MT M3. The M3 DCT equipped car will give you a BIG HEADACHE if you're stock and a much smaller one if you're not.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._bmw_m3_page_3

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mw_135i_page_4


Automobile mag was saying the prototype they were in dosen't pull as strong as an M3.
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      07-31-2010, 05:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
Umm, think again, the turbo engines pull all the way to redline, your V8 is good for off the line grunt, and falls at speed. You have it twisted man. Thats all that the NA V8 is for, low end grunt.

Turbos are top end heaven.
You might be thinking of big aftermarket snails. Have you seen a dyno of a N45/55? The power starts falling off before the redline.

You've got it backwards in this case.
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      07-31-2010, 07:45 PM   #14
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Trier Germany has it right, and anyone claiming that turbos by definition build power to redline have it REALLY backwards and need to look at some dyno charts to get sorted.

Turbos sized by OEMs to minimize lag (e.g., nearly every current turbo car, including BMW's N54 / N55, VAG 2.0T, etc.) are small... meaning they spool up quickly (low inertial mass) but consequently cannot produce high boost at high rpm. Racing turbos are usually the opposite, huge in size meaning they are "laggy" but can produce huge HP at high rpm / redline.

But putting aside mechanical theory, how can anyone who has driven an N54 / N55, the MINI R56 turbocharged Prince 1.6, or the VAG 2.0T family of engines not notice that the power delivery drops off around 5500rpm? It is terribly obvious, and a turnoff to many enthusiasts. The low-end and mid-range grunt is fearsome, no doubt about that (go test drive the Audi 2.0T in the B8 A4 to see what massive low-end and midrange torque is all about!), but the "rush to redline" just isn't there with most OEM turbo applications. Hence why many are NA engine enthusiasts... it isn't about being "pure", it is a characteristic power delivery that many enthusiasts find far more rewarding than having grunt off idle but then having to shift up before 6000rpm.

If anything, the current crop of OEM turbo motors feel a lot like old school OHV V8's by the American manufacturers... if you like that sort of thing, you're in luck! But know that the American V8's have moved on from that type of power delivery and now have a "cammy" feel, high redline, and power that builds to redline. e.g., Ford Mustang.
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      07-31-2010, 08:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefly View Post
Trier Germany has it right, and anyone claiming that turbos by definition build power to redline have it REALLY backwards and need to look at some dyno charts to get sorted.

Turbos sized by OEMs to minimize lag (e.g., nearly every current turbo car, including BMW's N54 / N55, VAG 2.0T, etc.) are small... meaning they spool up quickly (low inertial mass) but consequently cannot produce high boost at high rpm. Racing turbos are usually the opposite, huge in size meaning they are "laggy" but can produce huge HP at high rpm / redline.

But putting aside mechanical theory, how can anyone who has driven an N54 / N55, the MINI R56 turbocharged Prince 1.6, or the VAG 2.0T family of engines not notice that the power delivery drops off around 5500rpm? It is terribly obvious, and a turnoff to many enthusiasts. The low-end and mid-range grunt is fearsome, no doubt about that (go test drive the Audi 2.0T in the B8 A4 to see what massive low-end and midrange torque is all about!), but the "rush to redline" just isn't there with most OEM turbo applications. Hence why many are NA engine enthusiasts... it isn't about being "pure", it is a characteristic power delivery that many enthusiasts find far more rewarding than having grunt off idle but then having to shift up before 6000rpm.

If anything, the current crop of OEM turbo motors feel a lot like old school OHV V8's by the American manufacturers... if you like that sort of thing, you're in luck! But know that the American V8's have moved on from that type of power delivery and now have a "cammy" feel, high redline, and power that builds to redline. e.g., Ford Mustang.
QFT.
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      07-31-2010, 10:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
Umm, think again, the turbo engines pull all the way to redline, your V8 is good for off the line grunt, and falls at speed. You have it twisted man. Thats all that the NA V8 is for, low end grunt.

Turbos are top end heaven.
No Daniel, traditional turbo's, few of them these days, were high rpm torque/hp. Modern turbo's like our N54/N55 are designed with market likes and demands for better MPG along with lower rpm torque.
That is what the N54/N55, and Audi's 2.0T deliver.
Their power band is more akin to a diesel where there is a big spike in low rpm torque, but it's levels goes for a bit and drops like a stone.

We can still rev our engines to or near red line to extract best acceleration, but that is mainly due to gearing to you back into the meat of the power.

Older NA engines were big low rpm torque monsters that also suffered a somewhat short powerband. A high rev NA engine such as what's in the current M3 are more in line with what is better for high speed performance driving where you can really take advantage of high rpm and gearing.
The M3's relative low torque is quickly forgotten once the smooth as butter machine starts to shriek with mechanical delight.
At higher speed the M3 will easily dust off a 135i, and don't even attempt to hang with it in the twists.

Our 135i is comparable to the former E46 based M3, which is still a better handler. But, that's an "old" M3 now as the current one exceeds the formers prowess. I hope that if BMW goes with a turbo/s in the new M3, they will tune it like a turbo should be, but with modern engine controls to expand the torque band to retain that high rpm goodness.
A sequential turbo setup would be a much better choice in an M3 turbo, as long as the electronics are done properly to maintain a smooth throttle.
Also, a dual twin scroll might do it even better, just tune it so that it can still breathe at high rpm. I'm sure with the right intake plumbing and a large IC it can be done.

I wonder though, with all the positive press the new V8 Mustang GT is getting, BMW might rethink putting turbo's on the new M.
Sure, they have to meet EPA, but they've got Mini to help with that and the larger selling 128/328i that can return decent MPG.
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      08-01-2010, 03:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
If Dackelone with his 135i was faster than M3, it is just because the M3 drivers did not want to use petrol for nothing.
I did not say I was FASTER!

What I said was, that I was EQUAL in acell to an M3. He could not pull away nor could I gain on him. We both had the same acell until 155mph. This was not just a one time event. I have run across two other M3's with the same results. ?

Maybe I have just found three bad M3 drivers!?!?
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      08-01-2010, 05:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I did not say I was FASTER!

What I said was, that I was EQUAL in acell to an M3. He could not pull away nor could I gain on him. We both had the same acell until 155mph. This was not just a one time event. I have run across two other M3's with the same results. ?

Maybe I have just found three bad M3 drivers!?!?
Yes, it's quite likely since the difference between the 2 cars is relatively small - or at least smaller than the difference between you and the average M3 owners you have encountered.

The more carefully tested reviews published by numerous sources all say the M3 is faster so don't think you've suddenly discovered something no one ever realized.
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      08-01-2010, 08:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Our 135i is comparable to the former E46 based M3, which is still a better handler. But, that's an "old" M3 now as the current one exceeds the formers prowess. I hope that if BMW goes with a turbo/s in the new M3, they will tune it like a turbo should be, but with modern engine controls to expand the torque band to retain that high rpm goodness.
A sequential turbo setup would be a much better choice in an M3 turbo, as long as the electronics are done properly to maintain a smooth throttle.
Also, a dual twin scroll might do it even better, just tune it so that it can still breathe at high rpm. I'm sure with the right intake plumbing and a large IC it can be done.

I wonder though, with all the positive press the new V8 Mustang GT is getting, BMW might rethink putting turbo's on the new M.
Sure, they have to meet EPA, but they've got Mini to help with that and the larger selling 128/328i that can return decent MPG.
Would be nice if the M models got rid of all the lux items, and let the "IS" models be what the M models are now. The M models would be hardcore, like 911 GT3 hardcore or CLK Black Series hardcore. Instead of "M" meaning "Motorsports", let it be know as "Mother####". And we know M can do that, but Marketing (yes Scott, that means you) won't allow it. Imagine a 385 hp, light weight 1M (around 3200 or less), 0-60 4.3 secs, man, you'd have me marrying the car.
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      08-01-2010, 11:58 AM   #20
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The two engines are really pretty close in usable power. The 135 has torque lower and the M3 has high rpm horsepower. What everyone is forgeting in these acceleration comparisons is gearing.

6MT 135i rear axle ratio= 3.08
6MT M3 rear axle ratio = 3.85

I an acceleration contest with two cars of similar power and weight the car with the 3.85 rear axle and a limited slip should win every time. The engines and weight are two close to make a real difference with such a disparity in gearing.

A big part of the M cars is gearing and limited slip when it comes to acceleration. This is why I have been wondering what the 1M will get for gears?
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      08-01-2010, 01:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I did not say I was FASTER!

What I said was, that I was EQUAL in acell to an M3. He could not pull away nor could I gain on him. We both had the same acell until 155mph. This was not just a one time event. I have run across two other M3's with the same results. ?

Maybe I have just found three bad M3 drivers!?!?
Yo probably encountered 3 bad M3 drivers. I'll go out on a limb here and say most of the M3 drivers/owners purchased the car for prestige of the ///M brand and most are afraid to rev the engine to 8300 rpm and drive the car like it was meant to be driven because they are afraid they will break it.

Watch out when you encounter an M3 with M-DCT and M drive is setup for S-6 power button on sport plus then you will witness mad acceleration.
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      08-01-2010, 01:47 PM   #22
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Are we talking stock for stock here? I'm so confused, and yes the M3 is a high end power band. I mean come on, it's like an F430, they have no torque but wicked HP/weight. This aint yewr big block chevy v8 son.

This is sophistication/technology.
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