Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Excellent technical review from savagegeese of the CT5V Blackwing, probably the best and most comprehensive if you want a more in depth understanding of the technological underpinnings.

Seems to me as BMW is going softer and more mainstream with every generation that would make your typical Lexus buyer smile, Cadillac is going to where BMW used to be in terms of driver engagement and fun to drive factor. I would not have imagined this 10+ years ago, and I would not imagine that I may even consider buying one.

I'd say that 10 years ago, Cadillac was pretty much equal to BMW in driving dynamics. In 2021, Cadillac has left BMW in its wake. Hopefully Caddy can make a profit at it.

[Trojan4evr]

I have a MT G80 M3 and am planning on getting a CT5-V Blackwing in 2.5 years. My G80 was the first car I ever ordered to my specifics and wondering if I should start a dialog with a Cadillac dealership this far out about getting my name in a list or something. I'll be keeping my G80 hopefully for a long time and would love to have a MT CT5-V Blackwing right next to it.

[AlexFL]

I would still take the far smaller and cheaper ZL1 1LE over this heavy Caddy…

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I would still take the far smaller and cheaper ZL1 1LE over this heavy Caddy…

ZL1 weighs 4,120, the CT5 BW is 4,123. Plus you can see out of the Caddy.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

ZL1 weighs 4,120, the CT5 BW is 4,123. Plus you can see out of the Caddy.

And lighter than the M5 by 200lb, and much lighter than the obese Audi RS6/7 which are close to 5,000lbs.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

ZL1 weighs 4,120, the CT5 BW is 4,123. Plus you can see out of the Caddy.

ZL1 is actually 150 lb lighter.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

ZL1 weighs 4,120, the CT5 BW is 4,123. Plus you can see out of the Caddy.

The 2012 model?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by RM7

The 2012 model?

Just what Google lists for the 2022. I cherry picked the heavier number, but I'd suspect most are over two tons. Interesting that the Alpha based CT4 BW is under 3,900 pounds.

Google
3,907 to 4,120 lbs

[Trojan4evr]

Yeah, I'm at an age (37 yo) that I need a bit of luxury, not too much, but just the right amount. I spec'ed my G80 without any of the exec, park assist, drive assist, etc, but whored out on all the CF stuff including the bucket seats and went full leather inside. So I'd take the CT5 BW over the ZL1. There's something about a manual luxury/performance sedan that speaks to me.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by Trojan4evr

Yeah, I'm at an age (37 yo) that I need a bit of luxury, not too much, but just the right amount. I spec'ed my G80 without any of the exec, park assist, drive assist, etc, but whored out on all the CF stuff including the bucket seats and went full leather inside. So I'd take the CT5 BW over the ZL1. There's something about a manual luxury/performance sedan that speaks to me.

That’s unfortunate. The ZL1 1LE would make you feel like 25 again

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

That’s unfortunate. The ZL1 1LE would make you feel like 25 again

It would make me feel 8 years old again. Sitting in all Camaro's makes me feel like a kid sitting in a bathtub peeking out. I don't think I'm tall enough to drive these cars daily.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

That’s unfortunate. The ZL1 1LE would make you feel like 25 again

Over all the cracks and joints on roads, I’m not sure that’s going to make you feel young”…

[RM7]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

It would make me feel 8 years old again. Sitting in all Camaro's makes me feel like a kid sitting in a bathtub peeking out. I don't think I'm tall enough to drive these cars daily.

Do you feel you have to see the end of the hood? If yes, then no, it’s probably not for you. I find a lot of people jack their seats up as high as they can go regardless of the car and they don’t tend to recline the seats as the car (low roofline) intends. then even "average" sized people don't "fit". I’m 5’11” and can fit with a helmet just fine. The clearance is isn’t much with the helmet, just 1 or 2”, but not having a sunroof would buy a few more due to the design. I've never heard of the visibility ever being an issue for anyone that tracks or races, in that you adapt pretty quick to the size of the car. Some people drive in such a way that is just haphazard, rolling forward till their front wheel hits a parking stop (and rips the bumper off when they back up) and so on. You have to drive this realizing that it is low, the front overhang is low, not get into a spot/driveway that you can't get out of, park further away to minimize the risk, take stuff at angles, etc. Also stuff like setting mirrors, if you set them properly, to show the "blind" spot, it's a hell of a lot safer than all the people that incorrectly set the side mirrors to be redundant with the rear-view mirror. It's scary as hell cranking your neck over while trying to merge because you have a giant blind spot (that your mirror could show you). Again, it's not hard to adapt to, but it does take some adaptation. There are times during my autoX events where I say to myself "I have no idea how I did NOT hit any of those cones?", as it just seemed like I was way WAY too close to them, but the car moves well, it communicates well, it handles well, it punches pretty far above it's weight. Longer term ownership, getting in and out is harder than adapting to the view.

My more specific take is that a ZL1 or 2SS (1LE or not) can be a pretty good GT car, the suspension is stiff, but not so stiff you will feel like you are getting beat up all the time. Enough creature comforts to make you feel like driving the car is not a chore or hardship, and they can be driven hard and the dynamics are excellent. But getting in and out could be an issue. It's probably not any better with corvettes, but other cars are better.

It's not a sedan. It doesn't have the space and practicality of a sedan. A CT4/CT5 is a totally different animal. We've had a few ATS-V/CTS-V cars come out to race auto X, the CTS-V was just too heavy with too little rubber to make the tight turns, the ATS-V didn't seem to have enough low end punch possibly, they quit earlier in the race. As with most of the cars that aren't miatas and caymans, as you get bigger and bigger for the track size, those "V" cars would do better against the competition we had, but that just showed me the difference in intent of the cars and the more extreme the situation, the more differences between cars can come out. If you are going to occasionally do larger track stuff, the CT4/5 would be fine. If you just want one for driving a bada$$ car, I think that's probably where they hit the spot most accurately.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Just what Google lists for the 2022. I cherry picked the heavier number, but I'd suspect most are over two tons. Interesting that the Alpha based CT4 BW is under 3,900 pounds.

Google
3,907 to 4,120 lbs

ZL1 1LE is something like 3880 I believe with a manual, that's the figures I'm seeing.

Stuff like ZL1 automatic vert gets to be a pig, not as much of a pig as the last generation, but auto trans and vert usually adds a lot of weight, so if it's apples to apples, the ZL1 should be quite a bit lighter.

ZL1 vert with automatic is 4148 / 1882 (conv. w/automatic) according to the google.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by RM7

ZL1 1LE is something like 3880 I believe with a manual, that's the figures I'm seeing.

Stuff like ZL1 automatic vert gets to be a pig, not as much of a pig as the last generation, but auto trans and vert usually adds a lot of weight, so if it's apples to apples, the ZL1 should be quite a bit lighter.

ZL1 vert with automatic is 4148 / 1882 (conv. w/automatic) according to the google.

There's a convertible?! Okay, then let's just go with the lighter of the two numbers being the coupe.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There's a convertible?! Okay, then let's just go with the lighter of the two numbers being the coupe.

I remember this because the C6 is about 200lbs lighter than the C5. My C5 SS with manual trans was about 3820 or something like that, with an auto, it was pushing 4000, a ZL1 convertible auto C5 was something like 4400 back then. The lighter SS wasn't crazy bad, but it did kind of get crazy bad from there, one reason why the C6 SS is pretty much neck and neck with the older supercharged ZL1. The C6 manual SS is 36xx something, but the 1LE package I have adds some weight for stuff like the bigger brakes, sways, wheels, tires, etc. That's always the tradeoff, more weight to go faster only makes you go faster up to a point. These aren't as obscenely heavy as some other cars are, at least in their current generation. I'm seeing curb weight of 3700 or more for a G42 M240 xdrive and yes, it's xdrive, but it's also a much smaller car as far as footprint and wheels, tires, etc.

At least BMW seemed to get pretty aggressive with the M5 and keeping that from swelling to E AMG/RS6 weights.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by RM7

ZL1 1LE is something like 3880 I believe with a manual, that's the figures I'm seeing.

Stuff like ZL1 automatic vert gets to be a pig, not as much of a pig as the last generation, but auto trans and vert usually adds a lot of weight, so if it's apples to apples, the ZL1 should be quite a bit lighter.

ZL1 vert with automatic is 4148 / 1882 (conv. w/automatic) according to the google.

CT5-V BW manual curb weight: 4092 lb https://www.caranddriver.com/cadillac/ct5-v-blackwing

ZL1 1LE manual curb weight: 3842 lb
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...e-test-review/

that’s 250 lb difference, plus 6 in shorter wheelbase - that’s quite a difference when you are on the track. Further, you would easily save 30-40k by going for ZL1. Possibly even more depending on the insane dealer markups for the Caddy.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

CT5-V BW manual curb weight: 4092 lb https://www.caranddriver.com/cadillac/ct5-v-blackwing

ZL1 1LE manual curb weight: 3842 lb
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...e-test-review/

that's 250 lb difference, plus 6 in shorter wheelbase - that's quite a difference when you are on the track. Further, you would easily save 30-40k by going for ZL1. Possibly even more depending on the insane dealer markups for the Caddy.

You're comparing a luxury mid size sedan to a "compact" coupe. Of course it weighs more. Are we supposed to be shocked that it does? Its still the lightest in its class and incredibly track capable as we've seen.

[Red Bread]

Yeah, I'm not sure many people would cross shop the two. Now, back to cross shopping a Mk8 Golf R and a CT4 BW myself…

[strohw]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yeah, I'm not sure many people would cross shop the two. Now, back to cross shopping a Mk8 Golf R and a CT4 BW myself…

Obviously you get the Golf.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by strohw

Obviously you get the Golf.

Amusingly it's just as fast and has more tuning potential. Just comes with a clutch that needs to be replaced if you add any power.

[wtwo3]

Haven't watched the whole video yet. But just right off the bat, interior is pretty underwhelming. I still plan to check one out in person and test drive it (If I ever get the opportunity at some point this year), but it'll be hard for me to overcome the interior dullness.