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      07-23-2010, 06:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I am going to start off saying I agree 100% but here's my question.

If the manual mode lets user select gear no matter what. (won't upshift or downshift) Does that constitute as a manual? Does manual must include a clutch or simply implies user selection of gears.


I guess you just answered that question above

To me, the term "manual" means the driver is physically moving the gear selection mechanism, and the transmission isn't capable of shifting on its own without energy input from the driver.

Automatics have always had a means to allow drivers to select whatever gear they want, but that doesn't make them manual transmissions. It just makes them manually selectable.

Anything that's capable of shifting with no driver input (other than putting it in D) is an automatic in my book.

That said, I'm a big fan of DCT transmissions, and not all automatics are created equal. There's a massive difference between a DCT and a traditional torque converter based auto, and people (especially people who think 3 pedals are always better) should stop trying to lump them all into one generic catagory. At the same time, fans of the DCT should stop trying to say it isn't an auto. If you can put it in Drive and go from 0-155MPH without ever touching it, that's the very definition of the term.
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      07-23-2010, 10:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
By very definition "automatic" means it shifts by itself. Throwing the torque converter in there is pointless. Do you not consider a CVT an automatic? All torque converter based transmission can take driver input for gear selection. Calling them manuals because of that is just marketing BS.

DCT is an automatic transmission. It shifts automatically. That doesn't means it's the same as a traditional torque converter based transmission, but it's damn sure not manual in any sense of the word.

I didn't state that I don't consider the DCT a type of "automatic". It does work "automatically", as I clearly stated that.
That is why I described what I think a "true automatic" is, as I put it in quotations.
Nowhere did I state that a DCT can't be considered a type of automatic.
There IS a difference in feel due to the lack of a torque converter, and I spoke to that as well. For me, all of these "automatics" feel different in operation.

Regarding a CVT, yes, it too is a type of automatic trans, and it too has a different feel, even more so than the difference between a TC auto and an automated clutch auto.

The guy asked how someone would define what an "automatic" trans is.
So, I explained what I think it is.

I understand the technologies and have experienced how they work and feel. There are distinct differences. Simply because any of them can operate automatically only serves to classify them in terms of how the trans can execute a shift.
Categorizing them all under one term, "automatic", dilutes the distinction between them, as they are not the same in operation or feel.

Using one term would be fine if we were talking to people who don't understand their differences. But, this is an enthusiast site, so it deserves more distinction, again, IMO.
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      07-23-2010, 10:53 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by schmeah View Post
That's why I shake my left leg around quite a bit when I'm paddle shifting and leaving that "real manual" 135i guy in the dust.
I'd like to see a comparison of the N55 DCT and the manual.
I doubt that the manual would be left "in the dust", but I have not data to back that.
I'm sure the DCT would win the accel test, but it would probably be much closer than that.

What can be said of the DCT, and other automatics, is that repeating the accel performance is less reliant on driver skill.
That's not meant as a negative judgment, or to be derogatory, on auto drivers. It's just a fact, because getting good repeatable performance from a manual relies on the drivers skill. So, that's a plus for the DCT or other high-po automatics.

I LOVE the DCT's and DSG's. My next car will have one of these if it's offered in whatever car I get next time.

Last edited by RPM90; 07-23-2010 at 11:18 PM..
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      07-23-2010, 11:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I am going to start off saying I agree 100% but here's my question.

If the manual mode lets user select gear no matter what. (won't upshift or downshift) Does that constitute as a manual? Does manual must include a clutch or simply implies user selection of gears.


I guess you just answered that question above
You make a good point. That's why calling all transmissions, that can operate automatically, an "automatic", leaves questions for the enthusiast.

For most people they probably could care less. A driver who wants an automatic trans wants the car to go by putting it in drive and it does it's thing. Driver operated transmissions, manuals to be clear, are liked by drivers who want to do the whole process themselves. "Auto-manuals" are nice because they give a driver an option of having some input besides just putting the lever in "D".

To me, these technologies are cool and offer more options than in the past. That's why I like to know the differences between them, and what capabilities each can offer to me.

Last edited by RPM90; 07-23-2010 at 11:18 PM..
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      07-23-2010, 11:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
To me, the term "manual" means the driver is physically moving the gear selection mechanism, and the transmission isn't capable of shifting on its own without energy input from the driver.

Automatics have always had a means to allow drivers to select whatever gear they want, but that doesn't make them manual transmissions. It just makes them manually selectable.

Anything that's capable of shifting with no driver input (other than putting it in D) is an automatic in my book.

That said, I'm a big fan of DCT transmissions, and not all automatics are created equal. There's a massive difference between a DCT and a traditional torque converter based auto, and people (especially people who think 3 pedals are always better) should stop trying to lump them all into one generic catagory. At the same time, fans of the DCT should stop trying to say it isn't an auto. If you can put it in Drive and go from 0-155MPH without ever touching it, that's the very definition of the term.
I prefer to differentiate them by how they feel and function, and not just how the gears are selected. That's why I would not own most automatics, including the pre-135i/335i automatics.
The TC automatics in these cars are the exception not the rule. I seriously considered getting one as it's one damn fine TC automatic.

As far as those DCT fans who say it's not an "automatic", why shouldn't they say that? Technically, the DCT does operate automatically, and it is a type of automatic trans.
But, in feel and how it does it's job, it's distinctly different than a TC automatic or a CVT. Why are you so vehement on ignoring the differences? Calling them all "automatics" implies what the definition of that term has meant for decades, that it's a torque converter transmission that is designed to shift through the gears on it's own. That's what people think when they hear the term "automatic trans".

To me this is a case of a distinction WITH a difference.
If the deciding factor is simply how the trans changes gears, then all of these; DSG, DCT, DVT, Automatic would be called "automatics" transmissions would not have a need for the alphabet soup.
But, to simply categorize them based on that one limiting factor doesn't do it justice.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by RPM90; 07-23-2010 at 11:28 PM..
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      07-23-2010, 11:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I'd like to see a comparison of the N55 DCT and the manual.
I doubt that the manual would be left "in the dust". I'm sure the DCT would win the accel test, but it would be much closer than that.
Obviously I was exaggerating. I came from a 335i coupe 6MT so I can at least directly compare the two. The DCT -IS- faster off the line. I'm sure of it ... at least comparing my two vehicles, in my hands (and left foot). And I've driven nothing but a manual for the past ten years so I think my skill level is above average. No, it won't leave the manual in the dust but it will leave it at least in the side view mirror. Sure the manual is fun to drive. I still find my hand resting on the "auto" stick, and my left foot does twitch now and again. But I wanted the fastest BMW that my money could buy ... and I'm sure that I got it.
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      07-23-2010, 11:30 PM   #29
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No Problems yet with N55.

In regards to this pointless "DCT is and automatic" argument, I say the 6MTers are in for a surprise when some old dude or some 17 year old chick who never drove a 6MT can now blow you guys away. It's a rude awakening. Maybe 6MTers should go back to manual choked carburetors, or anything that's controlled by a computer, how about mechanical boost control. Who needs an O2 sensor when you can use a manual knob.


For the record, if the M1 comes with only 6MT option then I shall miss the DCT. I'll be even more sad when a 135i w/DCT blows an M1 away. Time will tell.
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      07-23-2010, 11:41 PM   #30
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I think we are straying from the topic. In any case I think the DCT vs. MT argument at least for me is based on the fact that it is just mechanically fun to slot the shifter home and use the clutch. At least for me that is a kind of fun that beats the technical excellence of a DCT transmission. A lot of the fun of having my 135 is the fact that I learned to drive a manual for the sake of having it on this car. It makes it that more special in my eyes.

Saying that a DCT is reliably faster than a MT is as useful as saying that a $5 Timex is more accurate than the mechanical watch that is my user name here.

Newfangled beats old fashioned in performance but for me the smile factor is greater with some of this old technology. In the end, I am not trying to "smoke" anyone on any public street anyhow.

Of course I would love to test drive a DCT transmission car though. I am sure they are very enjoyable too but to each his/her own.
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      07-23-2010, 11:44 PM   #31
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It's come to a point where I no longer care which is faster as I am not driving a race car. If I have to put the car in "D" to get it to move I feel like I have to tuck my dick between my legs. I don't race from lights. I don't track my car. I just drive to work every day and the joy of driving remains as I notch through the gears.

There's always been some kind of excuse for driving an automatic and only VERY recently has that excuse become "because it's quicker." It used to be traffic or sharing the car but that's not the case anymore. You can keep your fraction of a second and whatever the acronym of the month is for this edition of the manumatic, I will row my own boat so long as the option remains available.
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      07-24-2010, 12:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT II View Post

Saying that a DCT is reliably faster than a MT is as useful as saying that a $5 Timex is more accurate than the mechanical watch that is my user name here.

Newfangled beats old fashioned in performance but for me the smile factor is greater with some of this old technology. In the end, I am not trying to "smoke" anyone on any public street anyhow.

Of course I would love to test drive a DCT transmission car though. I am sure they are very enjoyable too but to each his/her own.
I have a friend that knocks me for wearing only Mechanical Watches (he drives a 911TT) and for driving my new "automatic". And another friend who buys expensive cues and $10 watches, when my $100 unit can whip his ass but my more expensive watch is not as accurate. I guess you by what you like. No need to knock DCT. Try and you will like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
It's come to a point where I no longer care which is faster as I am not driving a race car. If I have to put the car in "D" to get it to move I feel like I have to tuck my dick between my legs. I don't race from lights. I don't track my car. I just drive to work every day and the joy of driving remains as I notch through the gears.

There's always been some kind of excuse for driving an automatic and only VERY recently has that excuse become "because it's quicker." It used to be traffic or sharing the car but that's not the case anymore. You can keep your fraction of a second and whatever the acronym of the month is for this edition of the manumatic, I will row my own boat so long as the option remains available.
King, It's not an excuse. It's not all about quicker, it's just 1 of many reasons. 6MT is awesome but DCT is orgasmic. I also enjoy my ride to work. wonder if I should sell all my motorcycles and scooters, getting very little use.

So why knock DCTs? You drive what you like.
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      07-24-2010, 12:46 AM   #33
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In an attempt to get this thread back on topic,


Owned my car since early May, I have a little over 2000mi on the clock (I only live 5 minutes from work), not a single hiccup during start up. Lets hope it stays that way.


The DCT/Manual debate can go on forever guys, lets stick to the topic at hand.
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      07-24-2010, 06:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
It's come to a point where I no longer care which is faster as I am not driving a race car. If I have to put the car in "D" to get it to move I feel like I have to tuck my dick between my legs. I don't race from lights. I don't track my car. I just drive to work every day and the joy of driving remains as I notch through the gears.

There's always been some kind of excuse for driving an automatic and only VERY recently has that excuse become "because it's quicker." It used to be traffic or sharing the car but that's not the case anymore. You can keep your fraction of a second and whatever the acronym of the month is for this edition of the manumatic, I will row my own boat so long as the option remains available.
VERY well said!

Back on the topic of the thread, my 2011 135i has just over 1,200 miles (break in complete!! ) and no hint of HPFP issues yet. I experienced it in my 2007 335i at about 7,500 miles, but the second one lasted the remainder of the time I had the car. I love the 135i!
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      07-24-2010, 07:06 AM   #35
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Lot's of DCT envy in the air? So much negativity for such a fun car to drive. So much more than MT.
Just hope the clutches and actuators hold up. At least the clutches can be replaced fairly easily. With all the track guys out there, the DIY should be available before I need it.
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      07-24-2010, 09:22 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
It's come to a point where I no longer care which is faster as I am not driving a race car. If I have to put the car in "D" to get it to move I feel like I have to tuck my dick between my legs. I don't race from lights. I don't track my car. I just drive to work every day and the joy of driving remains as I notch through the gears.

There's always been some kind of excuse for driving an automatic and only VERY recently has that excuse become "because it's quicker." It used to be traffic or sharing the car but that's not the case anymore. You can keep your fraction of a second and whatever the acronym of the month is for this edition of the manumatic, I will row my own boat so long as the option remains available.
I feel the same..I would maybe rock a DCT/DSG whatever theyre call as a second car...(maybe to replace my current daily/beater/commuter) but my fun car needs 3 pedals(with a clutch that I can see)

Anything that can do anything on his own is automatic (climate control in the car can be operated manually but can be automatic as well) headlights can be auto or manually operated...so these tranny that can shift by themselves are automatics end of the story.
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      07-24-2010, 10:08 AM   #37
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Thanks for all the replies (though we did get a little off topic - my fault). It's nice to know that there isn't a single report yet of a pump failure now more than three months into the new model. There were several by now as I recall with the N54.
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      07-24-2010, 10:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schmeah View Post
Thanks for all the replies (though we did get a little off topic - my fault). It's nice to know that there isn't a single report yet of a pump failure now more than three months into the new model. There were several by now as I recall with the N54.


SHHHHHH dammit!! lol


***knock on wood***
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      07-24-2010, 10:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
I think one article quoted dealer replacement of the clutches north of $3,200.

The upside is with the computer controlled actuation, the war should be somewhat less than even the most skilled driver. Obviously, use of LC will negate this advantage somewhat.
I saw something like 3500 for trans swap from getrag in Germany. It won't be fixed at the dealer. DIY Clutch kits should some come available in a few years.
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      07-24-2010, 10:42 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by schmeah View Post
It's nice to know that there isn't a single report yet of a pump failure now more than three months into the new model.
This thread is very re-assuring...let's hope the N55 will stand the test of time. On that note, time to go for my Saturday morning drive.
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      07-24-2010, 11:33 AM   #41
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Let us all get back On-Topic please.
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      07-24-2010, 05:39 PM   #42
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Quote:
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FYI - N55 engine is in several BMW models not just 1'er series.
Nor has it only been out for "a few months." There are N55s with 7-10k+ miles already.
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      07-24-2010, 06:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
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Officially the U.S. 2011 3 series models came out April 15th, 2010... You can drive 10,000 miles in 2 months if you work at it.
N54 production stopped before that, I think some ordered in February and March. I ordered April 2nd
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      07-24-2010, 07:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Officially the U.S. 2011 3 series models came out April 15th, 2010... You can drive 10,000 miles in 2 months if you work at it.
Key word being "U.S." N55s were being used in some 2010 models in Europe. There are some 2010 N55 owners from Germany/Europe on this forum who had their cars before 2011 models arrived in the US. The 535i GT also had an N55 in the US before 2011 models.

To JB135MDCT, I ordered February 2nd, but production on US 2011 cars didn't start 'til March.
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