For those doing mods: worried about voiding factory warranty?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by robertm

That's not the question. The OP’s question is whether mods will void the warranty. This simple answer is yes. If the mod is the cause of a failure then it will not be covered. If the mod wasn't the cause of the failure then no.

As for FMIC, DPs, midpipes, intake, axle back and software, all of this has been done many, many times on the n54 for going on 4+ years now. I've never once read of someone blowing up a motor as a result. If you get quality pieces, get a well respected tune, always change your oil (5k mi) and you always let the car warm up (and cool) then you will be EXTREMELY unlikely to ever have issue. The possibility is there but the percentage of likelihood is infinitesimal.

Errrr... yes, there has been at least one guy. He had a 335i and was using a piggy tune with 18 psi(he did the resistor(s) mod). He needed a new motor/overhaul. You can search for it over on the e90 forum. It was on the front page a few (6)months back.

[robertm]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Errrr... yes, there has been at least one guy. He had a 335i and was using a piggy tune with 18 psi(he did the resistor(s) mod). He needed a new motor/overhaul. You can search for it over on the e90 forum. It was on the front page a few (6)months back.

Without going into the specifics it’s hard to say what happened in that case. Personally I am a bit leery of the piggy back tunes. If nothing else they are somewhat involved to take off for dealer service. BMS has done something like 1000 piggy back tunes though and other than a couple very early beta test motors there haven't been any failures as a result of his software. Statements like that are begged to be proved wrong of course. Including the car you mention lets say 1 out of 1000 has failed. I wouldn't be surprised if that one was actually a result of some other failing. An improperly machined part, an improperly assembled motor, an in improperly broken in motor, etc.

None of this negates the fact your warranty will be voided should this happen. It’s just extremely unlikely it will actually happen as a result of this mods.

[1swift1]

Originally Posted by flzrider

When it comes to mods and warranties in the U.S., the dealer/manufacturer has to prove that the modification is the cause of the failure in order to deny warranty work.

Read the following:

Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

Keeping Your Mod's Warranty Intact: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...ty-intact.html

Thanks for the links, flzrider! Good info...

[Oaktree]

I was at the track with a 135i who blew his turbo's, spewed oil into the exhaust and started his rear valence on fire. I know he had Hoosiers and I heard a tune but cannot confirm. Things do happen, people just don't post.

[ZCP M3]

Originally Posted by flzrider

When it comes to mods and warranties in the U.S., the dealer/manufacturer has to prove that the modification is the cause of the failure in order to deny warranty work.

Read the following:

Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act

Keeping Your Mod's Warranty Intact: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...ty-intact.html

Theres a lot of misinformation out there about Magnuson-Moss. It was a lawsuit about replacing like for like wear components like spark plugs, oil, tires, brake pads, etc. It's NOT a free pass to modify your car and retain your warranty.

[hybris4u]

@robertm: Yes agree with you. My point was just that the 1M is a superb car as is and I personally don't see the value of taking the risk to tune it. But just my personal opinion. Its always up to the owner to balance the risk vs benefit. The people that tune 135 I understand more as there is more to gain vs the 1M. Just my opinion. The funny thing is that it would never matter how perfect BMW made the 1M there would still be people tuning it even more... ;-)

The answer to the initial question I think was answered early in the thread. ;-)

[hybris4u]

@dackelone: I did talk to BMW in Sweden today just to verify. Yes they can see the tunes and yes the car will directly get blacklisted. Talked to my local dealer and they must report all cars to BMW to get blacklisted. He showed me all parts that are out of warranty after a chip tuning. It was a lot!!! Basically most expensive parts of the car is out of warranty if tuned. So will absolutely not do that! This is info for the Swedish market and I cannot talk for other markets.

[1swift1]

Well, after everyone's input and even more reading, I'm now returning the uninstalled flash tune and canceling my order for the FMIC. It really bums me out because I had these hopes and dreams of getting this car over 400 HP, but in the end that's just some number. I can't live with the possibility of voiding my warranty in my DD that is only 3 months old. I already have had the experience of an E46 M3 I purchased used that had no warranty ($10K over three years of ownership to replace all the worn out bits).
I still may go with Dinan but then that leaves me without the possibility of doing the group buy extended warranty. We will have to see about that. I really want to keep this special car for a long, long time.

Bottom line, thanks for helping me make the right decision for my situation. I can't afford to void the warranty on a car like this and I'm by no means building a purpose built race car. To the guys that are going for it and modifying to their heart's content, I salute you!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

@dackelone: I did talk to BMW in Sweden today just to verify. Yes they can see the tunes and yes the car will directly get blacklisted. Talked to my local dealer and they must report all cars to BMW to get blacklisted. He showed me all parts that are out of warranty after a chip tuning. It was a lot!!! Basically most expensive parts of the car is out of warranty if tuned. So will absolutely not do that! This is info for the Swedish market and I cannot talk for other markets.

Yes, I also talked to my dealer today about detecting tunes. The way it was described to me is... when a tech goes to scan a car's DME for faults on the GT1 scan tool... in the GT1's program is starts to look for any tuner codes or modifications to the line code of the SW for the DME. When it finds different SW than what BMW has released... the GT1 takes screen shots of the car's VIN(bc the VIN is in the DME) and then the GT1 emails the cars VIN and all info to BMW AG. The warranty is voided and BMW will not do any free work on the car from that point on. Presumably BMW AG must have a data base of voided cars(via VIN's).

My German dealer said this happened to one of their American customers with a new 535i recently. It all happened so fast that the tech I spoke too said he did not realize what was happening until after the GT1's screen went red and black - after it sent the info(screen shots) to BMW AG. So... this is true... that BMW somehow has the ability to scan for tunes when they read the fault memory.


Now... one of the reasons my car was in for service was I was having a problem with (one)long crank event. I thought it was my HPFP(mines never been replaced) but I had a code thrown for EWS, code 2F49. But when they went to read the codes on my car(I have a flash tune) there was no code and thier GT1 detected no tune on my car! So go figure. And since the car only acted up once and did not have a code... the dealer said no problem found. I wonder if anyne else has EWS (key fob verification)issues.

I guess it all depends on how good your tune is and IF BMW has seen it before.


Also... I talked to the tech about when you look in the adaptive memory for "emission readyness" and he confirmed that IF the DME has all zeros in the memory instead of learned valves of "ready", then the car has been tuned. But atleast for my car... nothing was detected.


Dack

[JimD]

In Germany maybe BMW can "void the warranty" without damage to the vehicle but they can't in the U. S. (because of Magnuson Moss). If you ask the question a different way, I think the answer is obvious and logical. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it causes damage will BMW cover it under their warranty?" - the answer is no, not if they determine this was the cause. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it doesn't cause any damage, does BMW have to honor the warranty?" , at least in the U. S. the answer is yes.

You may create a hassle for yourself with mods but if they don't harm the car, the warranty must be honored in the U. S. The thing that can be tricky is figuring out what caused what. Having to go to court to get a warranty honored would be a big hassle.

Any increase in boost has at least some potential to cause damage. BMW puts oil coolers or bigger oil coolers on with more boost. I think Dinan does too. Higher oil temperatures means faster oil breakdown and possible bearing damage. Higher pressure makes a head gasket more likely to blow out. Higher pressure makes a hole in a piston more likely to appear. I don't think any of these things is a huge risk. But there is a reason for BMW to record who has boosted their engine - in case something shows up later.

Jim

[ZCP M3]

Originally Posted by JimD

In Germany maybe BMW can "void the warranty" without damage to the vehicle but they can't in the U. S. (because of Magnuson Moss). If you ask the question a different way, I think the answer is obvious and logical. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it causes damage will BMW cover it under their warranty?" - the answer is no, not if they determine this was the cause. If you say "If I make this modification to the car and it doesn't cause any damage, does BMW have to honor the warranty?" , at least in the U. S. the answer is yes.

You may create a hassle for yourself with mods but if they don't harm the car, the warranty must be honored in the U. S. The thing that can be tricky is figuring out what caused what. Having to go to court to get a warranty honored would be a big hassle.

Any increase in boost has at least some potential to cause damage. BMW puts oil coolers or bigger oil coolers on with more boost. I think Dinan does too. Higher oil temperatures means faster oil breakdown and possible bearing damage. Higher pressure makes a head gasket more likely to blow out. Higher pressure makes a hole in a piston more likely to appear. I don't think any of these things is a huge risk. But there is a reason for BMW to record who has boosted their engine - in case something shows up later.

Jim

You are absolutely wrong. Magnuson Moss was about the dealerships requiring you to buy their oil and their filters, etc to maintain your warranty. It protects your warranty if the replacement part does not cause harm to the car. It does NOT require the manufacturer to uphold their warranty if the part modifies the car (for the parts of the car that part directly affects).

You can replace the air filter with a different one, but messing with the ECU to provide you with boost, timing, etc past factory levels is not something that falls under MM.

Either way, I'm sure BMW's team of lawyers have come up with many different clauses in their documents and made it profitable for BMWNA to void warranties based on aftermarket tunes so good luck fighting it.

[nachob]

The other vital consideration here is that, unless you can hire your own lawyers and specialists, BMW (via the dealer or regional specialist) makes the determination as to what caused the damage. It's not some independent 3rd party and it has been my experience that they suspect the owner or mods first before they assume it's a defect.

The whole point in answering the original poster is that if you care about the warranty, keep things mild. If you can afford not to care, then do what you want.

[hybris4u]

Or wait with tunes until after the car is out of warranty. In Sweden that is two years. The bad part even then is that BMW do a lot of goodwill work after warranty also. I have had goodwill work done on an earlier car (Alpina B3 3.3) and was very very happy with that.

[hybris4u]

I would assume that some tuner companies would take over warranties? Or?

[nachob]

Originally Posted by hybris4u

I would assume that some tuner companies would take over warranties? Or?

Yes, for example Dinan takes over warranty but not sure to what degree. If you go back to the second post for example...Dinan rates over 400 ft lbs of torque. Stock is 320 or 369 with overboost and the overboost is already past the rating on the gearbox.. so ??? Would Dinan cover the gearbox or clutch, driveline?

I don't know. I assume that BMW will cover the gearbox because it was their choice to go above ZFs posted torque ratings in overboost, though the overboost is always in a rolling situation. From a standstill, the torque is 320 which is below max rating. That is my understanding since overboost is a low rev, high load situation. If you are revving the motor off the starting line and drop the clutch, the revs are high, no overboost. If you start rolling, in low revs and floor it, then you get overboost but car is rolling. I think that is less stressful than 369 from a standstill which is why I originally only counted stock 320 lb ft.... Anyway, getting carried away here, the point is, the tuner might warranty the motor if it blows up but where to they draw the line if you stress something else?

In the E46 you had subframe damage stock. So if you go for a monster tune, how does that stress the subframe, mounts, etc?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by nachob

In the E46 you had subframe damage stock. So if you go for a monster tune, how does that stress the subframe, mounts, etc?

When one decides to "tune" that means more than just tuning the engine. Suspension and brakes should also be upgraded - just as //M has done with each of their M models vs the normal AG model.

[hybris4u]

I had an Alpina B3 3.3 (E46). I did get a subframe damage! It was really ugly and not sure how to explain it in English but the frame was "loose" in the back. It would have costed me like 7000 USD to fix it. BMW/Alpina took it as goodwill and fixed it. This was a problem on all E46 before the M3 I think (that was tuned). The difference is that Alpina is a car company and sold by BMW themselves so pretty go warranties. Even better than BMW it seemed as they fixed the car to mint condition...

[HALOTHANE]

An unmodified example will always retain greater value in the LONG term for collectors, unless said car was driven by a motorsport champion or won some high profile race event.

[Aussie_in_London]

[QUOTE=nachob;11129904 If you go back to the second post for example...Dinan rates over 400 ft lbs of torque. Stock is 320 or 369 with overboost and the overboost is already past the rating on the gearbox.. so ??? Would Dinan cover the gearbox or clutch, driveline?

[/QUOTE]


I am certain that rating is continues torque load and comes about from many days of continues running at those torque levels through the gearbox to gain that torque rating during bench development & testing, but that is not how we drive in the real world so we will not be placing that sort of forces on our gearboxes......

[Dackelone]

^^ ~300ft/lbs is like 400Nm. Lets not forget BMW has had LOTS of transmison versions in the 135i. (i think someone once posted/said six or seven AT versions exist. ?) For example the (early) A/T trans at first was only rated at 400Nm. Later versions were upgraded to handle close to 680Nm (if my memory is correct). BMW uses that A/T trans in a lot of their models. I found out those Nm specs when I was doing some research for the 6AT post about changing trans fluid. I found those Nm ratings on a ZF website. GA6HP19Z

I am not sure what the 6MT is capable of handling Nm-wise. I have heard that the 135i's clutch can only handle 500Nm.

I find it interesting that even BMW changed the 6MT unit for the newer N55 manual trans. And the 1M puts out 500Nm +50Nm with overboost. The 1M has a different clutch and flywheel than the 135i's do.

[James T. Kirk]

Not all mods void warranty. If the modded element is what is failing or is the cause of a failure, they won't touch it... if they recognize a connection. If there is no connection, the warranty stands.

On a different note, a dealership's acceptance of a vehicle as a trade-in depends on the relationship with the customer. I chipped and chopped my 335i and when it came to trading it in, my SA said... "don't worry, we'll let the used car department worry about getting your car compliant. Please sign here for your new M3!"

Yes, it's a gray area, but not worth short-changing the fun you want out of your 1M. Mod to your hearts desire. Mod, mod like the wind!
.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by robertm

. If the mod is the cause of a failure then it will not be covered. If the mod wasn't the cause of the failure then no.

OP.... this is explained in the MAGNUSON MOSS WARRANTY ACT which was made law in 1975.
It's amazing how many people (and service departments) get this incorrect, even though it's been around forever.



http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides...s/undermag.htm

A dealer cannot void the entire vehicle warranty based on modifications that you do to the vehicle. For example... you throw on some LUX lights and then your motor blows up... the dealer cannot decline to handle the motor because the lights have been modded, unless there is some way that they can prove that the lighting mod caused a chain of events that led to the motor blow up (highly unlikely).

Now then.. if you start blowing up fuses or electrical issues and it turns out that the issue is related to the lights, then yes.. the dealer can deny any work on the lighting/electrical system because of the mods.


With regards to tuning mods.. if you have an engine failure.. it's very likely that the dealer will point to the tuning mods and deny handling the loss. it's also fairly likely that it could get into a messy dispute. Does this happen often? No... I don't think so. The best way to ensure no issues at all would be to go with Dinan (which warrantees their mods when installed by a Dinan dealer) or BMW performance. Or.. keep it stock.

Originally Posted by nachob

The other vital consideration here is that, unless you can hire your own lawyers and specialists, BMW (via the dealer or regional specialist) makes the determination as to what caused the damage. It's not some independent 3rd party and it has been my experience that they suspect the owner or mods first before they assume it's a defect.

.

This is where Dinan may be the best aftermarket option. If the dealer confirms the failure was due to Dinan parts.. then Dinan picks up the tab.. In the case of any other company parts for engine mods, in order to prove that your aftermarket mod did not cause the problem.... A Cause and origin (C&O) expert would likely have to be hired.. and it may take legal action and attorneys etc on top of that.. . A C & O inspection/report runs about $750-1250 at a minimum! so you would be out this just to begin to prove your case.