N54 engine confirmed for M1 according to this article?

[HERR FSTIR]

According to the Bimmerfile podcast BMW has switched from using a modified N55 to a modified N54. Reportedly the decision related to insufficient time to work out the complexities of valvetronic.

Scott previously indicated the 1M would use a modified N55 which would ultimately be used in the F30/32 M3 (see 1M to use N55). However, he made this statement in January prior to the Geneva auto show earlier this year.

Around the time of the Geneva motor show a preliminary test drive by /M executives apparently left them displeased with the power output (No M1 at Geneva Motor Show). I wonder if their disappointment reflected the engineering difficulties of dealing with valvetronic, and given the time limitations in order to meet a 1st-2nd quarter 2011 production schedule, led BMW to switch from the N55 to the N54.

If this is in fact the case, then given time constraints it seems unlikely that BMW can do much more than remap the ECU. However, there would be some upside as the N54 has a broad array of aftermarket performance products as compared to the N55 or a variant thereof.

Of course this is all conjecture....we sure could use some new info from Scott.

[bryce]

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

According to the Bimmerfile podcast BMW has switched from using a modified N55 to a modified N54. Reportedly the decision related to insufficient time to work out the complexities of valvetronic.

Scott previously indicated the 1M would use a modified N55 which would ultimately be used in the F30/32 M3 (see 1M to use N55). However, he made this statement in January prior to the Geneva auto show earlier this year.

Around the time of the Geneva motor show a preliminary test drive by /M executives apparently left them displeased with the power output (No M1 at Geneva Motor Show). I wonder if their disappointment reflected the engineering difficulties of dealing with valvetronic, and given the time limitations in order to meet a 1st-2nd quarter 2011 production schedule, led BMW to switch from the N55 to the N54.

If this is in fact the case, then given time constraints it seems unlikely that BMW can do much more than remap the ECU. However, there would be some upside as the N54 has a broad array of aftermarket performance products as compared to the N55 or a variant thereof.

Of course this is all conjecture....we sure could use some new info from Scott.

thanks for the info. i'm just speculating here, but since it appears the car will have an n54 variant, m gmbh could feasibly fit different turbos in addition to the remap of the ecu to meet the power goals.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

which is impossible, because they cannot generate more than 420+ hp with no lag from a 3 liter engine.

The N54 already does this... With the ASR turbo upgrade (still small turbos, with better low end power delivery than cars like the Evo and STI) the engine puts down well over 400RWHP, and it more in line with 997TTs than the M3. In fact, it's really in a completely different class than the M3 with a very conservative turbo upgrade.

There are cars with tune-only putting down more power than a stock S65 powered M3, without any changes in low-end power delivery (though NO turbo car will ever be really "lag-free")

If the aftermarket can make a 420+hp turbo N54 for $1500 with TINY turbos, I'm sure M can do so too. The N54 really is a 420+ HP motor, BMW has just detuned it so that "lesser" cars won't blow the doors off of M models.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by bryce

thanks for the info. i'm just speculating here, but since it appears the car will have an n54 variant, m gmbh could feasibly fit different turbos in addition to the remap of the ecu to meet the power goals.

Really though, a "conservative" setting of the procede or JB3 tunes already puts an N54 powered car within spitting distance of the M3, and a real "maxed out" tune will put it ahead of the S65. Power delivery (top end) is the main thing M needs to improve to make this engine better than the M3 motor in all regards. It's already more fuel efficient, and more powerful (when no detuned). It just needs more power in the 6200-6700 range to feel as fun to use.

If a version of the N54 delivering "350"hp between 6200 and 6700 is released in the 1MC, it will be a superior motor to the S65 in all regards (other than the PURELY subjective measures like sound, and power delivery under 2500 rpms).

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

The N54 already does this... With the ASR turbo upgrade (still small turbos, with better low end power delivery than cars like the Evo and STI) the engine puts down well over 400RWHP, and it more in line with 997TTs than the M3. In fact, it's really in a completely different class than the M3 with a very conservative turbo upgrade.

There are cars with tune-only putting down more power than a stock S65 powered M3, without any changes in low-end power delivery (though NO turbo car will ever be really "lag-free")

If the aftermarket can make a 420+hp turbo N54 for $1500 with TINY turbos, I'm sure M can do so too. The N54 really is a 420+ HP motor, BMW has just detuned it so that "lesser" cars won't blow the doors off of M models.

I don't know if you are aware that a JB3/Procede/other tune N54 car can only hold the boost for 10-15 minutes on the track on a hot day even with upgraded intercooler, oil cooler, etc. whereas the current M3 can run on the track all day long. BMW needs reliable power for a sports car like the M3, what you see now from the tuners is nothing compared to what is really needed for an M car.

We will have to wait and see...

[bryce]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I don't know if you are aware that a JB3/Procede/other tune N54 car can only hold the boost for 10-15 minutes on the track on a hot day even with upgraded intercooler, oil cooler, etc. whereas the current M3 can run on the track all day long. BMW needs reliable power for a sports car like the M3, what you see now from the tuners is nothing compared to what is really needed for an M car.

We will have to wait and see...

that's true.......add a $250 meth kit and it's a completely different story, however

[Trier Germany]

Really?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Really though, a "conservative" setting of the procede or JB3 tunes already puts an N54 powered car within spitting distance of the M3, and a real "maxed out" tune will put it ahead of the S65. Power delivery (top end) is the main thing M needs to improve to make this engine better than the M3 motor in all regards. It's already more fuel efficient, and more powerful (when no detuned). It just needs more power in the 6200-6700 range to feel as fun to use.

If a version of the N54 delivering "350"hp between 6200 and 6700 is released in the 1MC, it will be a superior motor to the S65 in all regards (other than the PURELY subjective measures like sound, and power delivery under 2500 rpms).

Again, that comparison between a tuned 135/335 and the M3 is based on straight-line speed, right? You cannot possibly be talking about a tuned N54 being comparable to a M3 in the handling and balanced feel categories.

It all comes down to what your aims in a car are--there are much better alternatives, for cheaper, than a tuned N54 powered car if 0-60 or racing between the lights is your thing...

Trust me, I had a JB3 in my 135, so I know how "fast" it can be. I also know that my 135, even faster in a straight line, was no where in the same area code, much less league, as my dad's 07 M Coupe. Handling, steering, braking, feel, sound--all were MUCH superior in the M....and that goes back to the purpose of the car itself...the M is just in a different league...

Additionally, I really don't think there is any way the 1M will be "superior" to the M3 on paper....just doubt that BMW would do that to the M3...it, in my opinion, will be like the Cayman S...if they ever gave it the same power as the 911, the Cayman would be a faster, better handling car. But Porsche won't ever do it, because the 911 is their flagship....

[ptack]

The 135i is already slightly faster than the E46 M3. It's not out of the question that the 1M could be essentially equal to the E92 M3, though BMW would not say or emphasize that. I agree that it is unlikely BMW would decide to generously offer E92 abilities at a several thousand dollar discount, but the 135i isn't far from the E92 in hands of most drivers in non-track situations, so there's not much room to improve the 135i without getting closer to an M3. What we'll see if BMW tries to pull off is whether they rely on or emphasize the cachet of the M3 being a more Ulitmate Driving machine, regardless of the actual differences in performance.

[Jaguar66]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

...it, in my opinion, will be like the Cayman S...if they ever gave it the same power as the 911, the Cayman would be a faster, better handling car. But Porsche won't ever do it, because the 911 is their flagship....

Agree. With one caveat, the Cayman is already a better handling car.

These arguments remind me of the arguments when the E30 M3 came out, that BMW would never release a car that was better than its flagship car the 630/633/635/M6. We all know what what happened. The M3 became an enthusiasts car, and the 6 became a luxo GT machine.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by RobMason

Agree. With one caveat, the Cayman is already a better handling car.

These arguments remind me of the arguments when the E30 M3 came out, that BMW would never release a car that was better than its flagship car the 630/633/635/M6. We all know what what happened. The M3 became an enthusiasts car, and the 6 became a luxo GT machine.

I have never driven the 911, so I can't comment on that...but the Cayman S was in another league even from my dad's M Coupe...

the problem was that the Cayman S didn't feel as "fun" as the BMW....just like Hammond said on Top Gear when he compared the Boxster S to the Z4M...the Porsche was almost too precise, too surgical...

I hope the 1M doesn't end up being too neutered for any real fun....

[Jaguar66]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

the problem was that the Cayman S didn't feel as "fun" as the BMW....

They are both fun, depends on your mood. I am lucky enough to have both.

[1speedbike]

Read in Car Magazine (UK) and found it backed up online:

Same engine as in the Z4 35is
335 hp
370 ft/lbs
starting around 40k pounds

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...eries-M-Coupe/

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

Read in Car Magazine (UK) and found it backed up online:

Same engine as in the Z4 35is
335 hp
370 ft/lbs
starting around 40k pounds

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...eries-M-Coupe/

Another stupid journalist. It's not going to be an "is" engine.

[Advevo]

I have some inside info and it says Z4is engine aswell.

So i am curious about what it will be in the end.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I have some inside info and it says Z4is engine aswell.

So i am curious about what it will be in the end.

I highly doubt that it will be the same hp. M cars have always had higher output than an "is" version. Also, I don't think they would give it the same hp output as the e46 M3. (333hp).

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Again, that comparison between a tuned 135/335 and the M3 is based on straight-line speed, right? You cannot possibly be talking about a tuned N54 being comparable to a M3 in the handling and balanced feel categories.

It all comes down to what your aims in a car are--there are much better alternatives, for cheaper, than a tuned N54 powered car if 0-60 or racing between the lights is your thing...

Trust me, I had a JB3 in my 135, so I know how "fast" it can be. I also know that my 135, even faster in a straight line, was no where in the same area code, much less league, as my dad's 07 M Coupe. Handling, steering, braking, feel, sound--all were MUCH superior in the M....and that goes back to the purpose of the car itself...the M is just in a different league...

Additionally, I really don't think there is any way the 1M will be "superior" to the M3 on paper....just doubt that BMW would do that to the M3...it, in my opinion, will be like the Cayman S...if they ever gave it the same power as the 911, the Cayman would be a faster, better handling car. But Porsche won't ever do it, because the 911 is their flagship....

Of course I'm talking straight line only. This is an engine talk :-D

I had a 135i with a JB3 that I frequently ran on gas. It was extremely fast. The M Coupe is a vastly superior all around car.

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I don't know if you are aware that a JB3/Procede/other tune N54 car can only hold the boost for 10-15 minutes on the track on a hot day even with upgraded intercooler, oil cooler, etc. whereas the current M3 can run on the track all day long. BMW needs reliable power for a sports car like the M3, what you see now from the tuners is nothing compared to what is really needed for an M car.

We will have to wait and see...

Correct, but any turbo motor can perform just fine with proper cooling. That's limitation of the coolings systems BMW used with the car, not the motor itself.

If you look at the Berk car for example, it runs very well without heat issues, setting quite a few records for its class.

My point was simply that a DI FI motor is inherently superior to an NA motor of the same size when it comes to power, efficiency, and area under the curve.

I'm just I don't think most of the people here that are adamantly anti-turbo are looking at this from an objective perspective. I think they're coloring their reactions based on emotional fondness for the lovely NA engines BMW has made in the past.

Yeah, a turbo motor may have some lag below 2500 RPMs, but in the midrange, it isn't really noticeable with a properly sized turbo, and you can still have a very linear power curve with a turbo motor. Even the ASR upgraded turbo 135i with relatively small turbos is completely linear all the way through the powerband (until it starts to get starved for fuel).

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by ptack

The 135i is already slightly faster than the E46 M3. It's not out of the question that the 1M could be essentially equal to the E92 M3, though BMW would not say or emphasize that. I agree that it is unlikely BMW would decide to generously offer E92 abilities at a several thousand dollar discount, but the 135i isn't far from the E92 in hands of most drivers in non-track situations, so there's not much room to improve the 135i without getting closer to an M3. What we'll see if BMW tries to pull off is whether they rely on or emphasize the cachet of the M3 being a more Ulitmate Driving machine, regardless of the actual differences in performance.

A 135 can't compete with an E-46 M3 on a track! I was at Nurburgring Gp track yesterday. We were there with 4 ///M's we enjoyed smoke checking the 335 & 135 that got smoked checked! I also enjoyed the 135 trying to keep pace with my ///M on the straights no chance after 100mph walked him like he was driving a prius.I love beating up on the 135 on the track gets them back to reality that no matter what mods they put on there car it will never perform like an ///M

ass whooping :fightin g0056:

[02fireman]

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

Read in Car Magazine (UK) and found it backed up online:

Same engine as in the Z4 35is
335 hp
370 ft/lbs
starting around 40k pounds

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...eries-M-Coupe/

For it to be truly an M car, it cannot have the same engine as a non-M car. The M division has to build it "their" way. That is the history of M.

[Madozu]

Originally Posted by 02fireman

For it to be truly an M car, it cannot have the same engine as a non-M car. The M division has to build it "their" way. That is the history of M.

+1

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Trier Germany

A 135 can't compete with an E-46 M3 on a track! I was at Nurburgring Gp track yesterday. We were there with 4 ///M's we enjoyed smoke checking the 335 & 135 that got smoked checked! I also enjoyed the 135 trying to keep pace with my ///M on the straights no chance after 100mph walked him like he was driving a prius.I love beating up on the 135 on the track gets them back to reality that no matter what mods they put on there car it will never perform like an ///M

ass whooping :fightin g0056:

I recommend some psychiatrist, pronto.

[cstavaru]

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2010/08/30...-modified-n54/