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      09-04-2014, 07:23 AM   #89
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I've done this mod, and I noticed the difference right away, lots of train tracks in my town and the sloppiness of the back end stopped and also the rear end wander from hard acceleration. I would recommend this mod to anyone with an e82. Took me less than 2 hours to install and drive out of the garage.
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      09-04-2014, 06:33 PM   #90
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I think it's a no brainer if you don't want to deal with the install for the press-in M3 bushings. If you are ok with the price and install of the M3 bushings I can't really offer an informed opinion.

There may be other alternatives, like injecting RTV into the existing bushings to make them solid rubber.
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      09-05-2014, 09:39 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
bump... any more opinion on this mod?

the rear play is incredibly annoying... how much does this take care of?
Who could possibly say? The difference between stock and inserts is considered substantial by most who have done it. Same with M3 bushings. Are M3 bushings than just inserts? Likely, but where's the data on how much better? Who could possibly say? What data could they present that applies to you and your car?

It's even more complicated than that. It all depends somewhat on the condition of your existing bushings. How can you judge that?

Powerflex also makes a harder ("race") insert. I'd guess their effectiveness falls in between the standard bushing inserts, and the full M3 bushings. Exactly where, who could possibly say?

http://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/p...011-clone.html

You have to consider installed price. Whether you are qualified to work on critical suspension bits, and have appropriate tools. Pressing out the bushings. Access to BMW shop manuals for specifications. Access to new fasteners where BMW calls for them.

And then guess what will work for you. Inserts, bushings, professional installation or not. How much you trust the aftermarket manufacturers and how much you want the BMW label on everything. The only thing you can be fairly sure of is that most people who have done or had done either mod like the results.

The other thing you can be certain of is that there are plenty of uncertainties and some risk in messing around with your suspension. Not the least of which is how much you rely on random amateurs on the Internet, of unknown qualifications, giving you a very few words on complicated issues. Like me.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 09-05-2014 at 09:55 PM..
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      09-05-2014, 09:49 PM   #92
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M3 bushings are silly. If you're not going to do just inserts, you might as well do solid bushings, enjoy superior performance without the absurd m3 bushing pricetag.


BUT OMG SOLID BUSHINGS R VIBRATIONS LOLOLOL

Food for thought, your front subframe is solid mounted, and it holds the engine, which is vibration king.
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      09-08-2014, 11:15 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
...but where's the data on how much better? Who could possibly say? What data could they present that applies to you and your car?
[...]
Not the least of which is how much you rely on random amateurs on the Internet, of unknown qualifications, giving you a very few words on complicated issues. Like me.
Very important points whenever you read advice on an internet forum. Particularly for this mod which is almost impossible to objectively compare.

I'd be weary of any person who tries to give too strong of an opinion. In turn, asking for a stronger opinion is probably not going to produce better quality advice.
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      09-17-2014, 11:06 AM   #94
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I have had the Whiteline inserts on my car for about 3 months now. The difference is although noticeable, it is not huge as some here state. There is still a whole bunch of wiggle in the rear end and it's really getting on my nerves even on a daily commute.

Changing lanes on an uneven highway and even going over lane markers makes the rear wiggle. I tightened the subframe torx bolts twice so far and the rear actually feels solid for a couple days and then the rubber band feel slowly starts creeping in. Is it just me, or is anyone else facing a similar issue?
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      09-20-2014, 12:12 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboed View Post
I have had the Whiteline inserts on my car for about 3 months now. The difference is although noticeable, it is not huge as some here state. There is still a whole bunch of wiggle in the rear end and it's really getting on my nerves even on a daily commute.

Changing lanes on an uneven highway and even going over lane markers makes the rear wiggle. I tightened the subframe torx bolts twice so far and the rear actually feels solid for a couple days and then the rubber band feel slowly starts creeping in. Is it just me, or is anyone else facing a similar issue?
I installed my inserts in May. Like you said, the improvement is noticeable, but I need stronger medicine. I'm thinking of biting the bullet and going with M3 bushings.
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      09-23-2014, 12:27 PM   #96
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For everyone replacing the bushings or inserts, I really recommend replacing the subframe bolts (PN: 33 32 6 760 340). They are aluminum and no one stated that they are stretch bolts, but when you torque the new ones, you can feel them stretch.

I thought the inserts firmness deteriorated overtime, but it was actually the subframe torx bolts. After I replaced them with the new ones, the rear is tight again.
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      09-23-2014, 05:29 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboed View Post
For everyone replacing the bushings or inserts, I really recommend replacing the subframe bolts (PN: 33 32 6 760 340). They are aluminum and no one stated that they are stretch bolts, but when you torque the new ones, you can feel them stretch.

I thought the inserts firmness deteriorated overtime, but it was actually the subframe torx bolts. After I replaced them with the new ones, the rear is tight again.
That must be it. Don't know why I didn't think of it. Are all 4 bolts the same part number?

Thanks for posting this!
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      09-23-2014, 06:12 PM   #98
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Where are you seeing it is a "stretch" bolt? I would not think aluminum has the right properties for that. I'm betting you'll rip the threads right off an aluminum bolt before you actually get a real "stretch" tension. I cannot find any information on such a thing as an aluminum "stretch" bolt in any application.

It may be that BMW service recommends replacement (just like water pump bolts which IIRC are aluminum, etc.), but I'm guessing that's for other reasons than specifically it being a "stretch" bolt. Probably wear on the threads because aluminum is fairly brittle compared to a typical steel bolt.

When torquing with the insert installed you're actually compressing the bottom insert piece.

edit: a bit more searching it seems typically aluminum bolts are replaced when they go into a steel thread due to the coatings used to avoid galvanic corrosion. This seems fairly likely that the thread body is steel since you're screwing them into the chassis. I'm unsure why they use aluminum at all, probably the fact it's in a spot that will get salty, so mild steel would corrode, maybe Al has the right heat cycling properties for this specific application.

Not saying "don't bother replacing" just challenging the "stretch" part.
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Last edited by Freon; 09-23-2014 at 06:25 PM..
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      09-23-2014, 07:05 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboed View Post
For everyone replacing the bushings or inserts, I really recommend replacing the subframe bolts (PN: 33 32 6 760 340). They are aluminum and no one stated that they are stretch bolts, but when you torque the new ones, you can feel them stretch.

I thought the inserts firmness deteriorated overtime, but it was actually the subframe torx bolts. After I replaced them with the new ones, the rear is tight again.
We're do we order these bolts, I have inserts on the way, I want install all at once, thanks.
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      09-23-2014, 09:06 PM   #100
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Anyone known the proper torque specs for these bolts?
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      09-23-2014, 09:45 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Where are you seeing it is a "stretch" bolt? I would not think aluminum has the right properties for that. I'm betting you'll rip the threads right off an aluminum bolt before you actually get a real "stretch" tension. I cannot find any information on such a thing as an aluminum "stretch" bolt in any application.

Not saying "don't bother replacing" just challenging the "stretch" part.
I doubt the bolts are aluminum. I believe they are some type of low-grade steel. Bolted joints rely on the bolt being stressed to a high percentage of its capability... to some point of permanent deformation... in order to provide the necessary clamping force. Once you start stretching a bolt (original installation to the proper torque), re-stretching it by repeated applications of torque is simply working the bolt to eventual failure. I may have already overtorqued my bolts... I've got new ones on order. I'll get under my car in the next day or two with a torque wrench... if I set the wrench to 74 lb ft and any of the bolts move at all, I know I've found my problem.
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      09-23-2014, 11:13 PM   #102
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They're most definitely not any form of steel. Way too light! Not a chance! I'd consider magnesium alloy or even titanium, but not any iron or steel. Titanium is ruled out by price.
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      09-24-2014, 01:47 PM   #103
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lol @ whoever said the bolts are aluminium. AL and steel don't play well together when you thread one into the other. The bolts are high carbon steel (read: stiff and light)
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      09-24-2014, 02:37 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVU View Post
That must be it. Don't know why I didn't think of it. Are all 4 bolts the same part number?

Thanks for posting this!
No problem! Yes, they are all same PNs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Where are you seeing it is a "stretch" bolt? I would not think aluminum has the right properties for that. I'm betting you'll rip the threads right off an aluminum bolt before you actually get a real "stretch" tension. I cannot find any information on such a thing as an aluminum "stretch" bolt in any application.

Not saying "don't bother replacing" just challenging the "stretch" part.
The stretch was just an assumption, but I could be wrong. I had to re-torque the old bolts constantly. I don't have that issue with the new ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukuss View Post
We're do we order these bolts, I have inserts on the way, I want install all at once, thanks.
I got it from my local dealership parts store for $30. But you can get it from getbmwparts.com or here :

http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp?HC1=...HCM=135i Coupe

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Originally Posted by 3002 tii View Post
Anyone known the proper torque specs for these bolts?
74 ft/lbs or 100 Nm

Quote:
Originally Posted by DietTab View Post
lol @ whoever said the bolts are aluminium. AL and steel don't play well together when you thread one into the other. The bolts are high carbon steel (read: stiff and light)
And I stand corrected, aluminum was just an assumption.
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      09-24-2014, 03:49 PM   #105
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Could the need for retorqueing have anything to do with the inserts moving around a bit? I'm guessing from the installation process that they might move some as they get into final position in this joint. If so, that could have the effect of creating clearance.
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      09-24-2014, 04:32 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
Could the need for retorqueing have anything to do with the inserts moving around a bit? I'm guessing from the installation process that they might move some as they get into final position in this joint. If so, that could have the effect of creating clearance.
That would be my guess. Nothing's a perfect fit, and since they do move in relation to the rubber bushing, whilst under pressure, it makes a little bit of sense that they would move into the natural position of least resistance after some miles and jostling around.
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      09-24-2014, 05:03 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVU View Post
That must be it. Don't know why I didn't think of it. Are all 4 bolts the same part number?

Thanks for posting this!
I just checked the bolts using a torque wrench set to 74 ft lbs. None of them budged. Back to the drawing board. It must be my imagination that it feels like the benefit of the inserts has really gone away.

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      09-25-2014, 09:19 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DietTab View Post
lol @ whoever said the bolts are aluminium. ... The bolts are high carbon steel (read: stiff and light)
I encourage anyone who believes this post to spend 3 minutes googling the density of aluminum and steel alloys. *Sigh* This is completely wrong information. DietTab, feel free to post the density numbers you found. I found ~7800 kg/m^3 (roughly) for pretty much every steel alloy, and ~2750 for all Aluminum alloys. They're not even close, and "high carbon" has pretty much nothing to do with it.

Yes, AL and steel don't play together well unless the bolt is coated. As I alluded to in another post, that seems a likely reason why BMW would say to replace the bolts.

By all means, replace them. They're only $5-6 a pop plus shipping.
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      09-25-2014, 12:16 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
I encourage anyone who believes this post to spend 3 minutes googling the density of aluminum and steel alloys. *Sigh* This is completely wrong information. DietTab, feel free to post the density numbers you found. I found ~7800 kg/m^3 (roughly) for pretty much every steel alloy, and ~2750 for all Aluminum alloys. They're not even close, and "high carbon" has pretty much nothing to do with it.

Yes, AL and steel don't play together well unless the bolt is coated. As I alluded to in another post, that seems a likely reason why BMW would say to replace the bolts.

By all means, replace them. They're only $5-6 a pop plus shipping.
It would be pretty easy to weigh the bolts and determine their volume by water displacement (or rough estimate by measurement, assuming it to be a cylinder), to calculate their actual density. Like you said, the density of Al and Steel are not even close (~3 to 1 difference).
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      09-26-2014, 08:19 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DietTab View Post
BMW says to replace the bolts because they are TTY. They are not aluminium. Stick a magnet on one and watch it hang off. Use your brain - an aluminium bolt would shear WAY too easily here.

It's a simple bolt though. I just put 90 ft/lbs on mine and called it good.
Doh! Can't believe I forgot about using a magnet.
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