135 convertible regrets??

[Obioban]

Ha, just when I thought this thread had run it's course

Okay, first off, radio and climate control aren't options-- they're standard features. So I actually didn't option them at all. Nav is an option, but the nav brain only weights 2 lbs and doesn't hurt torsional rigidity at all.

Moving to the actual point, though-- climate control and radio are necessities to use the car as a car. Without climate control you could drive the car what, 2 months of the year? Too cold to drive it without heat in the winter, too hot to drive it without AC in the summer. Similarly, sitting in traffic without radio is insufferable. Not being a vert doesn't make the car unusable in any way. In fact, the coupe is a MORE useful car in every way-- trunk space, back seat space, etc.

To your point, you're welcome at any point to point out that my CC/radio/nav come at a weight penalty. I fully realize that, which is why I don't have any of them in my track car. They're still in the car because it's not useful as a car without them (I've taken lots of other stuff out-- my street M3 is ~160 lbs lighter than stock). That said, they don't weight anywhere near as much as the vert adds, they don't hurt torsional rigidity at all, they don't hurt practicality at all (quite the opposite).

Asking why you have climate control on a street car is kind of like asking why you have tires on a street car-- because it's necessary to use it as a car.

[ChristianReyess]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

When I was in Costa Rica I stayed at a hotel in the middle of the rainforest.

There were two ways to get to the hotel. You could land a floatplane just offshore in the Pacific and taxi in, or you could hop a boat and run the rivers for 3 hours to get there.


I took the river - which was filled with Caymans. So we slow down in a few spots to get good views of some of the wildlife and while looking at birds a Cayman swims up to the stopped boat. You can see his head sticking up - checking everything out.

My guide looked at the Croc and thought "Im gonna catch that" So as the Cayman swims by Manuel throws his hand into the water and grans the base of its tail. He holds it there for about a minute, the Cayman thrashing away and he says. Once hes tired himself out im gonna bring him on the boat.

Fortunately for my briefs the Cayman slipped out of his hands. I dont know what I wouldve done, being trapped on a 25ft boat in the middle of a river in a secluded rainforest with a 10-15 foot Croc.


But yeah, that was Manuel, my Latino Steve Irwin. Loved the two weeks I spent with that guy as my guide.

That's bad ass

[ChristianReyess]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

probably - but im bored with nothing better to do.

hahah love it.

well at least he's admitting it. I'm pretty sure he also said in huge letters he understands the verts "limitations"

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Ha, just when I thought this thread had run it's course

Okay, first off, radio and climate control aren't options-- they're standard features. So I actually didn't option them at all. Nav is an option, but the nav brain only weights 2 lbs and doesn't hurt torsional rigidity at all.

Moving to the actual point, though-- climate control and radio are necessities to use the car as a car. Without climate control you could drive the car what, 2 months of the year? Too cold to drive it without heat in the winter, too hot to drive it without AC in the summer. Similarly, sitting in traffic without radio is insufferable. Not being a vert doesn't make the car unusable in any way. In fact, the coupe is a MORE useful car in every way-- trunk space, back seat space, etc.

To your point, you're welcome at any point to point out that my CC/radio/nav come at a weight penalty. I fully realize that, which is why I don't have any of them in my track car. They're still in the car because it's not useful as a car without them (I've taken lots of other stuff out-- my street M3 is ~160 lbs lighter than stock). That said, they don't weight anywhere near as much as the vert adds, they don't hurt torsional rigidity at all, they don't hurt practicality at all (quite the opposite).

Asking why you have climate control on a street car is kind of like asking why you have tires on a street car-- because it's necessary to use it as a car.

Thank you for proving my point. You don't believe that your performance selections "significantly" alter the performance of the car.

And you have a problem with people who made different selections stating their opinion that those selections do not "significantly" alter the performance of the car.

You're not "correcting" people. You're just being a snob.

Originally Posted by Obioban

As soon as people stop claiming there isn't a significant performance difference between the cars, I'll stop annoying you by posting facts that point out that there is.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

Thank you for proving my point. You don't believe that your performance selections "significantly" alter the performance of the car.

And you have a problem with people who made different selections stating their opinion that those selections do not "significantly" alter the performance of the car.

You're not "correcting" people. You're just being a snob.

Pretty sure my point was that there IS a performance penalty, just that they (other than nav) are mandatory, necessary features for a daily driven car. If I didn't think there was a penalty, I'd still have them on my race car.

Nav, admittedly, is not necessary. But, at 2 lbs for the brain, pretty insignificant compared to the 80 times greater weight penalty of the vert (not to mention the loss of torsional rigidity).

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Pretty sure my point was that there IS a performance penalty, just that they (other than nav) are mandatory, necessary features for a daily driven car. If I didn't think there was a penalty, I'd still have them on my race car.

Nav, admittedly, is not necessary. But, at 2 lbs for the brain, pretty insignificant compared to the 80 times greater weight penalty of the vert (not to mention the loss of torsional rigidity).

Right, you're saying that people who post the opinion that the performance penalty of radio+AC+nav is "not significant" are correct. But people who post the opinion that the performance penalty of a convertible is "not significant" cannot be tolerated and must be corrected. And you're saying that you will continue to perform this important service for the community.

I'm glad we've cleared that up.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

Right, you're saying that people who post the opinion that the performance penalty of radio+AC+nav is "not significant" are correct. But people who post the opinion that the performance penalty of a convertible is "not significant" cannot be tolerated and must be corrected. And you're saying that you will continue to perform this important service for the community.

I'm glad we've cleared that up.

I don't think you're actually reading anything I'm writing (including what you're quoting).

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't think you're actually reading anything I'm writing (including what you're quoting).

Ummmmm, I can see that he is. IMHO you are so fixated on a certain position you missed the point a time or three. By now you have posted the same message more than once, and you're losing the audience.

Along the same line, why do you drive a car with seats that aren't used? You should take them out, as this is extra and unnecessary weight. Oh wait - it's a street car, a daily driver - a COMPROMISE THAT YOU ARE HAPPY MAKING. Maybe the vert owners are that way - and some of us might even have more knowledge than you about certain things. Hard to believe, huh?

You've posted above that you consider it necessary to "inform" every poster that has or is considering a convertible that there is a loss of rigidity with this body style. You are going to be very busy the rest of your life - and you will be less than welcome often.

[Section147]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

- and you will be less than welcome often.

Pretty sure we reached that point roughly 100 posts ago.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

Ummmmm, I can see that he is. IMHO you are so fixated on a certain position you missed the point a time or three. By now you have posted the same message more than once, and you're losing the audience.

Along the same line, why do you drive a car with seats that aren't used? You should take them out, as this is extra and unnecessary weight. Oh wait - it's a street car, a daily driver - a COMPROMISE THAT YOU ARE HAPPY MAKING. Maybe the vert owners are that way - and some of us might even have more knowledge than you about certain things. Hard to believe, huh?

You've posted above that you consider it necessary to "inform" every poster that has or is considering a convertible that there is a loss of rigidity with this body style. You are going to be very busy the rest of your life - and you will be less than welcome often.

If I didn't regularly need my back seats, I wouldn't have bought a car that had 4 seats. There is a difference there, though-- need (back seats) vs want (vert). I certainly wouldn't be lugging around a back seat if I didn't need it.

Again, though, I never said people shouldn't get verts. My only point is that people should realize what they're giving up. It's completely legitimate to choose to give that up for the vert experience, if that's what you want out of a car. That doesn't negate the fact that you're giving it up.

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by Obioban

If I didn't regularly need my back seats, I wouldn't have bought a car that had 4 seats. There is a difference there, though-- need (back seats) vs want (vert).

Again, though, I never said people shouldn't get verts. My only point is that people should realize what they're giving up. It's completely legitimate to choose to give that up for the vert experience, if that's what you want out of a car. That doesn't negate the fact that you're giving it up.

Ummm, I don't think you read what I posted. I'm not sure you read what you posted. You are also missing the point.

BTW, if the convertibles are so horrible, why is the Miata such a popular car? Must be a floppy noodle since it's a vert. It does well in autocrossing? NOOOOOOO, this isn't possible. It's a vert. It's a compromise. NOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

Ummm, I don't think you read what I posted. I'm not sure you read what you posted. You are also missing the point.

BTW, if the convertibles are so horrible, why is the Miata such a popular car? Must be a floppy noodle since it's a vert. It does well in autocrossing? NOOOOOOO, this isn't possible. It's a vert. It's a compromise. NOOOOOOOO!!!!

The miata is popular because it's lightweight, cheap, and rwd-- a surprisingly rare combination in modern cars. That doesn't mean a coupe version of a miata wouldn't handle better.

Nor was my point that all verts are bad cars. I didn't even say the 1 series vert is a bad car!

Seriously used miatas get their frames boxed off by a roll cage, btw.

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The miata is popular because it's lightweight, cheap, and rwd-- a surprisingly rare combination in modern cars. That doesn't mean a coupe version of a miata wouldn't handle better.

Nor was my point that all verts are bad cars. I didn't even say the 1 series vert is a bad car!

Seriously used miatas get their frames boxed off by a roll cage, btw.

Really?? You sure????
A close friend of mine built ( a lot of) cages for these for quite a while....... duh....

You are still missing the point.
First of all, the whole coupe vs vert rant by you and the other guy was off topic.
You did say about that you were going to make sure every vert owner knew what they were giving up.

I don't fit in a Miata, and even an M roadster is difficult for me. So I own a 135 vert. I guess I could make a point I need it.

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

My only point is that people should realize what they're giving up.

Yeah. You feel that if they do something stupid like post that they didn't think the difference was "significant" to them, then they need to be corrected. Whether they want to be or not. Because the important thing is that they realize.

Originally Posted by Obioban

"As soon as people stop claiming there isn't a significant performance difference between the cars, I'll stop annoying you by posting facts that point out that there is."

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

Yeah. You feel that if they do something stupid like post that they didn't think the difference was "significant" to them, then they need to be corrected. Whether they want to be or not. Because the important thing is that they realize.

I didn't say anything about what it means to them (or doesn't). There is a significant performance difference, regardless of whether they care about that or not.

People are free to make whatever informed decision they want to with that info. I'm just against people saying it doesn't exist.

[coda72]

Does anyone feel like a certain poster in this thread is like the teacher from Charlie Brown "Wah wah wah wah wah."

[Section147]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'm just against people saying it doesn't exist.

And I'm just against people saying there's a "significant performance difference" when the use of "significant" is so subjective.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Section147

And I'm just against people saying there's a "significant performance difference" when the use of "significant" is so subjective.

Yes, which is how we got into putting things into context-- other things of similar weight, other things with similar difference of grip, etc... Which is what really seemed to get the vert owners into a tizzy.

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Yes, which is how we got into putting things into context-- other things of similar weight, other things with similar difference of grip, etc... Which is what really seemed to get the vert owners into a tizzy.

sarcasm on
sure, that's what did it.
sarcasm off

man, we could write it on a piece of paper, and pound it into your ear with a piece of 4X4, and you would still miss the point.

Thread starts "anyone regret buying a 135 vert instead of 335."
Some people think this means 135 vert vs 335 vert.
Others 135 vert vs 335 coupe.
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
Ans "yeah we know, no big deal. Significant, not really, we like our cars"
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
ans "we get it, chill. significant is a relative term. everything is a compromise"
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
repeat

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

sarcasm on
sure, that's what did it.
sarcasm off

man, we could write it on a piece of paper, and pound it into your ear with a piece of 4X4, and you would still miss the point.

Thread starts "anyone regret buying a 135 vert instead of 335."
Some people think this means 135 vert vs 335 vert.
Others 135 vert vs 335 coupe.
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
Ans "yeah we know, no big deal. Significant, not really, we like our cars"
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
ans "we get it, chill. significant is a relative term. everything is a compromise"
You: don't you know a vert is significantly handicapped, due to less torsional rigidity, I have to fix you."
repeat

Significant is only a relative term in this case because some are more numb than others when it comes to their car and the driving experience. Perhaps if it is summed up in bullet points, you will see what Obioban and I have been saying all along.

Convertible
Performance: Worse
Driving dynamics: Worse
Practicality: Worse
Open air driving experience: Better

It's not debatable and it's not an opinion. It's just the way it is. If the last part is the most important to you, you made the best choice.

And the thread didn't start with us if you actually read it(I know, it's hard):

Originally Posted by flinchy

probably regret the vert over coupe in lack of handling and extra weight more than anything.

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Everyone needs to shut the hell up with comments like this. They're stupid, uninformed, and pointless.

To which I responded, and pointed out the above. Butthurt ensued.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by flinchy

probably regret the vert over coupe in lack of handling and extra weight more than anything.

It's hard to believe that my response to this started everything.

I stand by the response. A 135 vert and a 335 coupe are the same weight - so the comment was indeed uninformed and pointless.


But I just got home from a nice weekend trip with my gf. And I came back to see that this thread is still going...

Yeesh - just all of you put a sock in it please. It's all as pointless as the comment that started it. I'm always up for a spirited debate, but this is just a bunch if people talking past eachother now.

I think we've all said what we were going to say.

So in closing - we like our verts, we bought them because we think they're better than coupes because of intangible attributes and not numbers that don't matter in daily driving.

And whatever you say won't change the fact that I have 76 thousand very happy miles in my car. Despite that it may be slightly slower than a coupe.


And that's the problem with everyone that's been commenting in this thread (including me)

You all have to say or defend that the vert is "worse" than the coupe.

Why can we all agree on the fact that a 135 vert is a very quick and fun car to drive, but the coupe is that much quicker (tho not as much fun for everybody)






Although i an still waiting for obiwan and stigilwiggly to get me hard numbers to support all of their rigidity claims

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Although i an still waiting for obiwan and stigilwiggly to get me hard numbers to support all of their rigidity claims

You're going to have to keep waiting. BMW never released them for the 1 series. That doesn't mean it's magically different than every other coupe/vert that they (and every other car company) have produced.

You can live a delusion if it makes you feel better, though