135 convertible regrets??

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Obioban

You're going to have to keep waiting. BMW never released them for the 1 series. That doesn't mean it's magically different than every other car that they (and every other car company) have produced.

You can live a delusion if it makes you feel better, though

Yu two haven't gotten me numbers for every other vert in the world. Just a link to a thread with unsubstaiated numbers on it.

So go forth and find me proper documented sources for those other cars, and let's be scientific about it. Don't just bring forward the crappy verts that support your claim. The burned of proof is I those who make the claim, after all.


Also what delusion is there exactly? All I said was get me numbers to back up your claim - not delusion, science.

(I've said that line before...these people just don't listen do they?)

[Obioban]

Other BMWs:

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=100&i=15562

Scoring 14,500Nm/degree in BMW’s torsional stiffness test, the M Roadster is pretty stiff for an open car, and despite its wide 225/45 and 255/40 rubber on 8.0J and 9.0J x 18-inch alloys rubber, scuttle shake on poor roads in minimal. Even so, it does not come close to the Coupé’s impressive 32,000 Nm/degree, which is more than double the Roadster’s rigidity.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=24922

By adding a roof to create the Z3 M Coupe, BMW achieved 2.6 times the torsional stiffness of the Z3 M Roadster

[BrokenVert]

C&D also say that the 135 is a 4.7 second car...

I'm talking company documentation - where exactly did bmw, or ford, or whoever say these numbers Show me that and we can begin to work out a trend.


But your logic of not as good as a coupe = shit is flawed to start with so I don't have much hope on anything.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

C&D also say that the 135 is a 4.7 second car...

I'm talking company documentation - where exactly did bmw, or ford, or whoever say these numbers Show me that and we can begin to work out a trend.


But your logic of not as good as a coupe = shit is flawed to start with so I don't have much hope on anything.

Are you really starting this up again? Or claiming the vert is as stiff as a coupe? What I'm saying isn't a debated topic-- verts are ALWAYS floppier than coupes. There's no mystery here; anyway with any knowledge of cars knows this.

Not sure what you're trying to say with the second part.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

C&D also say that the 135 is a 4.7 second car...

I'm talking company documentation - where exactly did bmw, or ford, or whoever say these numbers Show me that and we can begin to work out a trend.


But your logic of not as good as a coupe = shit is flawed to start with so I don't have much hope on anything.

BMW UK press release backing up the above Z4M numbers. Don't think even you can weasel your way out of this one.

Because, you know, it's a wide spread conspiracy against verts in all the main stream car media and only means something if you get to read it from BMW.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/24/b...pecs-and-pics/

So there you go. Proof positive, from BMW, that the Z4 M coupe, which came out in the same time period as the 1 series and is made by the same company, was TWICE as stiff as the Z4 M vert.

Enjoy.

[eaglemike]

stig - you missed the point AGAIN
I'm not running a race car. I don't need to be a boy racer, unlike a couple of people in this thread. I've owned some extremely fast vehicles for their time, and don't feel a need to prove myself. Stating you push you car to 100 percent every day on the street makes me happy I'm far from you, and tells me you are a fool.

Hey stig and ohioban, let me say this again real plain:
You guys engage in a LOT of digital self gratification.

Edited to add: even though this is the internet, I've never seen people with such a need to "educate" or "fix" others, so determined that other people adopt their view that coup version of a certain car is SO SUPERIOR to a convertible version of th same car. y god friend that's welded a LOT of cages to raced Miatas used to wrench on Indy cars, worked for the Paul Newman team, worked for Jim Hall, for Nisan racing and guess what? He doesn't go off like this. I've had friends that raced bikes at Daytona, another guy RAN the Jaguar team for a while. Never heard anything or experienced anything like this.

Sarcasm on
I guess I'm really luck to finally met some real experts on subjects such as regrets about buying a BMW 135 convertible. No matter they never owned one.
Sarcasm off.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Are you really starting this up again? Or claiming the coupe is a stiff as a vert? What I'm saying isn't a debated topic-- verts are ALWAYS floppier than coupes. There's no mystery here; anyway with any knowledge of cars knows this.

Not sure what you're trying to say with the second part.

I never claimed (nor has anyone else in this thread) that a coupe is as stiff as a vert.

You're also obsessed with the negatives again and it reflects in your chain of logic.

You're entire point in this thread is that "it isn't as stiff as a coupe therefore it is obviously a crappy car." am I wrong?

That logic is incredibly flawed to begin with and precludes an option where a vert is relatively stiff and a coupe is that much more so.

Originally Posted by Obioban

BMW UK press release backing up the above Z4M numbers. Don't think even you can weasel your way out of this one.

Because, you know, it's a wide spread conspiracy against verts in all the main stream car media and only means something if you get to read it from BMW.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/24/b...pecs-and-pics/

So there you go. Proof positive, from BMW, that the Z4 M coupe, which came out in the same time period as the 1 series and is made by the same company, was TWICE as stiff as the Z4 M vert.

Enjoy.

That article mentioned a number on the stiffness of the Z4 could but mentioned nothing on that number vs the number for a roadster.

"The safe and dynamic driving qualities of the BMW Z4 M Coupé are also attributable to the extremely strong, torsionally and flexurally stiff structure of the body. With torsional stiffness of 32,000 Nm/o, the body of this new model sets the standard in its segment, offering both driver and passenger passive safety of the very best: Benefiting from perfect interaction of the body and safety systems, the car’s occupants enjoy perfect protection in virtually any kind of accident."

Also I'll ask again (there seems to be a lot of that going around in this thread) do you actually know what that number means in context to anything? Or do you just think that bigger = awesome?

Also how is expecting you to back up your claims equivalent to me weaseling out of anything?

So let's put some more context in the situation. Get me the Z4 roadsters numbers. Then let's move on - get me the numbers for every other coupe/vert so that we can actually be informed.

Chop-Chop context boy

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I never claimed (nor has anyone else in this thread) that a coupe is as stiff as a vert.

You're also obsessed with the negatives again and it reflects in your chain of logic.

You're entire point in this thread is that "it isn't as stiff as a coupe therefore it is obviously a crappy car." am I wrong?

That logic is incredibly flawed to begin with and precludes an option where a vert is relatively stiff and a coupe is that much more so.



That article mentioned a number on the stiffness of the Z4 could but mentioned nothing on that number vs the number for a roadster.

"The safe and dynamic driving qualities of the BMW Z4 M Coupé are also attributable to the extremely strong, torsionally and flexurally stiff structure of the body. With torsional stiffness of 32,000 Nm/o, the body of this new model sets the standard in its segment, offering both driver and passenger passive safety of the very best: Benefiting from perfect interaction of the body and safety systems, the car’s occupants enjoy perfect protection in virtually any kind of accident."

Also I'll ask again (there seems to be a lot of that going around in this thread) do you actually know what that number means in context to anything? Or do you just think that bigger = awesome?

Also how is expecting you to back up your claims equivalent to me weaseling out of anything?

So let's put some more context in the situation. Get me the Z4 roadsters numbers. Then let's move on - get me the numbers for every other coupe/vert so that we can actually be informed.

Chop-Chop context boy

That's not an article. That's a BMW press release. From the horses mouth, as you've been requesting all along.

We posted a list of all cars long, long ago.

http://www.**************.com/commun...igidity.12334/

Because they didn't agree with you're cause, you decided to play the tact that they weren't real numbers. I have now verified the z4m numbers with a BMW press release. If you want to verify the rest of the numbers (or disprove), have fun. You've told us many times how bored you are at work. I've never seen anything in that list that disagrees with an officially given number, so I see no reason to doubt it.

[BrokenVert]

You verified the Z4 M's number.

Nothing in relation to the roadster was discussed in that article. All I'm asking for is context. One data point isn't context.

And that is a forum - no verifiable numbers were discussed. So yeah I ignore them because without manufacturer direct information they're just numbers on a webpage.

So again - stop talking past me and let's get some science in this bitch.

But you have terrible logic and you choose not to accept the opinion of an expert witness (somebody who owns a coupe with 15K miles on it and a vert with 76 - hello! I'm at your service from comparison opinions)

So let's go. Find me the numbers for coupe/vert combos from other manufacturers/models.

And let's get some proper context. But I'll ask again. Do you actually know what any of these numbers mean? Or do you just like big stiff ones?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

You verified the Z4 M's number.

Nothing in relation to the roadster was discussed in that article. All I'm asking for is context. One data point isn't context.

And that is a forum - no verifiable numbers were discussed. So yeah I ignore them because without manufacturer direct information they're just numbers on a webpage.

So again - stop talking past me and let's get some science in this bitch.

But you have terrible logic and you choose not to accept the opinion of an expert witness (somebody who owns a coupe with 15K miles on it and a vert with 76 - hello! I'm at your service from comparison opinions)

So let's go. Find me the numbers for coupe/vert combos from other manufacturers/models.

And let's get some proper context. But I'll ask again. Do you actually know what any of these numbers mean? Or do you just like big stiff ones?

Yes, I know exactly what the number means.

If you want to verify the numbers, look them up yourself. They logically make sense and agree with official numbers I've seen. I'm not going to individually look up numbers from manufacturer sources only for your gratification.

Your coupe weights 4000+ lbs. Hardly a good basis of comparison.

[BrokenVert]

The burden of proof is on the man that makes the claim. You made a claim, and you have yet to prove it. Also you love to throw out the word context. Thats all I'm asking for, you to put the numbers that you dont have into context.

My coupe is still a coupe. My vert is still a vert - comparing the two is fair.

Also your logic is still faulted. The 135 vert is a very fun car to drive. get over your delusions and stop pretending that we care about your uninformed opinion.




Also please post that 3700lb weight comparison list on M3 Forums. I really want to see that thread

[Obioban]

You're not actually asking for context at all, you're asking for sources. I gave you the list. You said that wasn't enough. Then I gave you articles, which no doubt got their numbers from BMW press releases (which, unsurprisingly, had the same numbers as the list). You said that didn't count because they could be lying (vast anti vert conspiracy and what not). Then I gave you a press release from BMW on the z4m. Which agreed with the numbers on both the list and the articles (they weren't lying?!?! Who would have guessed!).

If you want a press release for each individual car from their OEs, you're going to have to look them up for yourself.

[BrokenVert]

The numbers are the context.

An anonymous Internet forum isn't a source. You made a claim. I'm asking you to support it with verifiable numbers. This is not an outrageous thing to ask you for.

You've given me one so far - the Z4MC. So properly back up your claim or go away.


And if you understand the numbers what's generally considered to be a good number for torsional rigidity, huh? Let's get more context on these numbers

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

The numbers are the context.

An anonymous Internet forum isn't a source. You made a claim. I'm asking you to support it with verifiable numbers. This is not an outrageous thing to ask you for.

You've given me one so far - the Z4MC. So properly back up your claim or go away.


And if you understand the numbers what's generally considered to be a good number for torsional rigidity, huh? Let's get more context on these numbers

I didn't just give you the forum, i also gave you articles from legitimate automotive publications.

The z4mc was the only one I went through the effort of finding a BMW press release for, but where exactly do you think automotive publications get their numbers from? They're certainly not twisting chassis's.

[ejm3]

Frankly I wonder how many people purchase the coupe simply because they couldn't afford the convertible.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I didn't just give you the forum, i also gave you articles from legitimate automotive publications.

The z4mc was the only one I went through the effort of finding a BMW press release for, but where exactly do you think automotive publications get their numbers from? They're certainly not twisting chassis's.

Right. The press got their info from somewhere. So find me that info, unless you aren't as dedicated to context and the truth as you made us all believe.

So let's try again. Do you know what the numbers mean? Let's get more basic - do you know what a newton meter is?

Do you know what a good number for torsional is?


Because if you don't than you aren't qualified to talk about it. It's ok, I do know what all of this information means - as an engineer it's my job to know what these numbers mean.

So if you need help, ask. But you can do the data mining - just like one of my interns!

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

My coupe is still a coupe. My vert is still a vert - comparing the two is fair.

Your coupe is a coupe as much as my Suburban is a sedan.

[gwhiz]

I can't believe that you all are still getting goated into an argument with this guy. He has already stated a few times that he simply does it because he's bored.

This is also the guy that jacked his car up, bounced up and down a few times with his not so tiny 220 lb. body and is using that as scientific evidence that his car is stiff....... before you argue with that, there were actually numbers thrown around in that post. I, for one, couldn't stop laughing.

Come on people, reason it all out in your heads, try to get a good mental picture of that scenario and then try to take him seriously.

This is ridiculous.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by ejm3

Frankly I wonder how many people purchase the coupe simply because they couldn't afford the convertible.

Maybe some, but that does bring up two more vert downsides: Higher price and faster depreciation.

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Right. The press got their info from somewhere. So find me that info, unless you aren't as dedicated to context and the truth as you made us all believe.

So let's try again. Do you know what the numbers mean? Let's get more basic - do you know what a newton meter is?

Do you know what a good number for torsional is?


Because if you don't than you aren't qualified to talk about it. It's ok, I do know what all of this information means - as an engineer it's my job to know what these numbers mean.

So if you need help, ask. But you can do the data mining - just like one of my interns!

At this point I have posted numbers from legitimate sources (the automotive press). If you want to go through individual press releases from years ago when the cars were released, be my guest. From the perspective of any objective person, proof enough has been posted.

Based on how well this thread has handled a discussion of weight (which is easy to understand, feel the effects of, and quantify), a discussion of torsional rigidity (which is much more subtle) is going to get us nowhere.

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Your coupe is a coupe as much as my Suburban is a sedan.

Station wagon

Originally Posted by gwhiz

I can't believe that you all are still getting goated into an argument with this guy. He has already stated a few times that he simply does it because he's bored.

This is also the guy that jacked his car up, bounced up and down a few times with his not so tiny 220 lb. body and is using that as scientific evidence that his car is stiff....... before you argue with that, there were actually numbers thrown around in that post. I, for one, couldn't stop laughing.

Come on people, reason it all out in your heads, try to get a good mental picture of that scenario and then try to take him seriously.

This is ridiculous.

True story. And, I also had a good laugh at that "test". True show of his engineering skill!

I will endeavor to no longer respond to his baiting. Hopefully I can do a better job ignoring him that he did being "done posting in this thread"

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Station wagon

Indeed, my mistake.

I can't feel the difference between it and a CTS-V Wagon anyways. Wagon is a wagon.

Originally Posted by gwhiz

This is also the guy that jacked his car up, bounced up and down a few times with his not so tiny 220 lb. body and is using that as scientific evidence that his car is stiff....... before you argue with that, there were actually numbers thrown around in that post. I, for one, couldn't stop laughing.

Come on people, reason it all out in your heads, try to get a good mental picture of that scenario and then try to take him seriously.

This is ridiculous.

Not sure why I let that one go after pointing it out earlier.

[drewh130]

its funny how the coupe ppl in here are trying so hard to justify their purchase by putting someone elses vehicle down. It seems like ya'll are a little jealous that the e88 look better, gets more attention and are more fun to drive in 95% of real world situations. The coupe is a little faster? This is the n54/55 we're talking about no? More power is cheap. How often do you take a .86g turn in everyday commuting?

Ive driven several e82s and many e88s and I can say unequivocally that the e88 is more fun to drive. You can't beat the top down/exhaust in your ear experience. FYI, I commute through Atlanta and the roads arent the best. If the e88 chasis is as bad as ya'll are making it out to be..I would have traded the car in by now..

Be happy with what you have and I'll be happier with my AW over coral red 6sp vert.

[shodanusmc]

I will agree that a coupe is a bit more rigid that a Vert, but we love our 135 Vert. Chicago roads are not the best. No rattles or noises, powerful, fun to drive with the top down. PPK1 really woke it up. Could make it faster, but no reason to. You all need to move on to a new topic. If I wanted just launch speed, I would have bought a GT-R or a ZR-1. Wonder which one is more rigid. The GT-R is quite a bit heavier, but is it faster 0-60?