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[Elsabor67]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

THAT is bc they have a law over here in Germany that says... it is up to you what kind of tires you put on your car... BUT... IF you are in an accident AND it is 7' C or colder outside... YOU will be charged with that accident (EVEN IF it was not your fault!). AND... your insurance company may not cover your accident damage at all!

When it is colder than 7' C in Germany... you MUST HAVE "M+S" tires AND that tire must have the "snow flake" symbol.

All season tires are Ok only IF they have that "M+S" and the "snow flake" symbol. But as you know... A/S tires are a big comprimise and really do not work in deep or new snow.

That is why most every German (I know) drives in winter time with winter tires. Only us "dumb" Americans would think to drive with summers or a/s tires.

The Germans also have some cute "other winter time laws" like... IF you don't clean off the snow off your car(from the roof and side windows)... that can now be a 80 euro fine(ticket) and one point on your lic(in Flennsburg or Mannheim for us Ami's ).

IF you only clean off a small snow hole on your windsheild... that is a big no no. That is even more expensive fine.

When the polizei stop you in winter time they can ask you to show them your snow brush/ice scraper, washer fluid for winter time (blue alcohol stuff) and something else which escapes my mind right now. IF you don't have these things they can fine you too.

Ofcourse the Polizei will also check other stuff like your drivers lic, registration, first aid kit (& exp date!), warning triangle and warning vest(has to be inside the car near the driver). You MUST have all of that stuff too.


Dackel

Defintly agree!!

[bimmer74]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

All season tires are Ok only IF they have that "M+S" and the "snow flake" symbol. But as you know... A/S tires are a big comprimise and really do not work in deep or new snow.

Definitely agree. Winter tires are a must for safe driving, I don't care how many wheels are driven.

The above quoted line is a little confusing from the US/Canadian tire designation point, though. If a tire has the snowflake-on-a-mountain symbol, it is a winter tire. All winter tires also have the M+S symbol but that does not make them a "compromise" for winter driving - they are real winter tires. Maybe it's different in Europe.

[studio5]

Originally Posted by Thaddy

It's not a marketing euphemism at all. It's a tire designed to perform in all seasons. They were never meant to compete with dedicated summer or winter tires. You have a severe hatred for all-seasons, but they serve a purpose for a large majority of consumers.

I ran all-seasons on my WRX for two very bad winters and they worked fine. However, I would never do the same with a RWD 135i. These cars need dedicated winter tires.

Thanks to everyone for their enlightened comments. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but they were useful in helping me to decide which setup I should go with.

Given the kind of driver that I am and my 30+ years of driving experience in snowing conditions, I have to agree with a previous poster that driving experience really does count. I've seen plenty of drivers with their SUV's sliding all over the roads, thinking that having 4x4 and winter tires will do the job. Talk about marketing euphemism for SUVs being the perfect vehicles for winter driving!

It looks like that I will go ahead with the all-season tires and sell the original Bridgestone summer tires. I just have to decide whether to go with the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus, which I had on my 330 convertible. Or possibly the Pirelli PZero Nero. Some people have had good results with the Continental DWS too. Will probably make my decision in the next few days.

Thanks again for your help.

[sixburgh]

"I've had both dedicated snow tires and all season..... after due consideration, I'll stick with the all seasons. There are only a few days per year that the roads are snow covered. On dry roads the snow tires feel like you're driving on marshmallows. The few day that snows would be required, I'll just sleep in.."

me, too.

[studio5]

LOL. The video was funny. But, again I think you are missing the point. The black pickup truck was not so fortunate. Neither was the red pickup truck. But, the white truck was fortunate enough to escape unscathed.

You're talking about ICE. Winter tires are not going to stop a car from sliding all over the road. Again, it comes down to driving experience and knowing when to use the brakes to move slowly, etc.

I would rather err on the side of cautious and stay home or use alternative streets to get to my destination.

Additionally, you made a comment about being worried about the other driver's experience and lack of snow tires. That's very true. But, it wouldn't make any difference if you had all-season or winter tires, since you would be subjected to the other driver's action and get into an accident.

Bottom line, I appreciate your feedback. As I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences for their vehicle. What we probably both will agree on is that summer tires are a no-no in winter season.

[aerobod]

One point of reference for the effectiveness of winter tyres, is the Quebec law that came in 3 years ago mandating their use. The past 2 winters saw an 18% decrease in accidents compared with before the introduction of the law:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...ear-three.html

[roo97ss]

i'm a winter tire guy. not into compromising. we buy performance cars, and drive around on compromised performance tires in both summer and winter with all seasons or do we want the best available.

We even ran snows on our SUV, nothing like being able to stop, turn and go in the snow, won't see us sliding around sideways like the other idiots in their almighty SUV or 4x4 truck with 1/2 worn out all season tires.

No matter how much gadgetry goes into your car, it's only the tire that keeps that stuff connected to the road.

Buy a set mounted and balanced, i know cost can be an issue, as well as storage...but to me so is ultimate safety (plus you can sell them separately when you sell your car). While i agree the driver probably makes the biggest difference in safety, the safe driver with the best equipment will ultimately be better off.

joe

[Hops128i]

It's been my experience that low profile tires are bad in the snow in the last half of tread life, I don't know if that's true in general, but it's been my experience. That's why I got a dedicated set of performance snows for my 128i. I did consider all seasons, but I my reasons for getting a dedicated winter set were:
-better winter performance than AS.
-having an extra spare in case of a repairable leak.
-chance to try out non-rft tire
-car never has to be lifted for tire service, I can just bring in the wheels for leaks, new tires...
-wear on summer tires is offset by winters.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by bimmer74

Definitely agree. Winter tires are a must for safe driving, I don't care how many wheels are driven.

The above quoted line is a little confusing from the US/Canadian tire designation point, though. If a tire has the snowflake-on-a-mountain symbol, it is a winter tire. All winter tires also have the M+S symbol but that does not make them a "compromise" for winter driving - they are real winter tires. Maybe it's different in Europe.

Legally for you to drive in Germany(when it is 7' C or colder outside)... a winter tire is one that has BOTH the "snow flake" on the mountain scene AND the "M+S" on the sidewall. Sometimes the Polizei will say i order to drive on this or that mountain road... you will also need snow chains. This is common in the Alps. They have those snow chain signs.

I was watching TV this week and they were showing some Chinese tires that had both stamps... but the tire profile was that of a summer tire. You have to use common sense and select a tire that is rated for winter. AND not just go off of whats stamped on the sidewall.

The Germans also ran an interesting test... they said a winter tire MUST have at least 5mm of thread to work properly. Under that and one should buy new tires! A min of4mm for summer tires. And they said to buy new tires after five years of age - going by the date of manufacture stamp on the sidewall.

Now... the TUV says a min or 1.5mm regardless of summer or winter. But if you would drive the autobahn durring a rain or winter storm... you know you have to have some thread profile for the tires to work. Hydroplaning is a real hazzard!

Dackel

[GaryS]

It is amazing to me that someone would buy an expensive sports car and then get cheap with the most important part. All-season tires will handle poorly and slip and slide in every situation - hot dry pavement and cold dry pavement too, not just on ice and snow.

[Dackelone]

^^++1.

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by studio5

Bottom line, I appreciate your feedback. As I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences for their vehicle. What we probably both will agree on is that summer tires are a no-no in winter season.

Whatever you decide, if you are near the DC area, I strongly recommend Radial Tire Co., in Silver Spring - especially if you are a BMWCCA member. Otherwise, check out TireRack.

Tom

[JimD]

You guys preaching winter tires must not have much driving experience in snow and ice. I drove for nearly 30 years in the snow belt and most of the time it was on all season tires. I have used snow tires including ones with studs and I have used chains. But when you needs studs or chains, you should not be out. Snow tires may be a tiny bit better on slick stuff but a decent driver should never tell the difference. On ice, nothing but studs or chains is worth much.

I would think about snows for my bimmer if I didn't have a SUV for slick conditions (which has all seasons). My logic is not that I need the snows for the winter but rather than I don't want the all seasons for occasional track use in the warmer months. Maybe a performance all season would be OK. If you're going to have two sets of tires, then I think snows make sense. But if you do not track your bimmer, all seasons will be fine if you know what you are doing. If you don't, take a driving school.

But arguments that all seasons are unsafe is talking nonsense. I see poor drivers literally in the ditches every time it snows here. Front wheel drive, all wheel drive, everything. If you do not know what you are doing, your tires will not save you. If you do, all seasons work fine. I've driven in 12 inch deep snow with them (in a 4 wheel drive SUV). If you think all seasons do not work, you need some driving lessons.

Jim

[bimmer74]

Originally Posted by JimD

You guys preaching winter tires must not have much driving experience in snow and ice. I drove for nearly 30 years in the snow belt and most of the time it was on all season tires. I have used snow tires including ones with studs and I have used chains. But when you needs studs or chains, you should not be out. Snow tires may be a tiny bit better on slick stuff but a decent driver should never tell the difference. On ice, nothing but studs or chains is worth much.

I would think about snows for my bimmer if I didn't have a SUV for slick conditions (which has all seasons). My logic is not that I need the snows for the winter but rather than I don't want the all seasons for occasional track use in the warmer months. Maybe a performance all season would be OK. If you're going to have two sets of tires, then I think snows make sense. But if you do not track your bimmer, all seasons will be fine if you know what you are doing. If you don't, take a driving school.

But arguments that all seasons are unsafe is talking nonsense. I see poor drivers literally in the ditches every time it snows here. Front wheel drive, all wheel drive, everything. If you do not know what you are doing, your tires will not save you. If you do, all seasons work fine. I've driven in 12 inch deep snow with them (in a 4 wheel drive SUV). If you think all seasons do not work, you need some driving lessons.

Jim

Winter tires are proven to have better grip for improved traction while accelerating, stopping, and turning. Saying that you don't need winter tires because you are such a "great" driver is simply ignorant.

[Dackelone]

und...

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by JimD

You guys preaching winter tires must not have much driving experience in snow and ice.

Obviously you don't have any snow and ice driving experience in very cold temperatures. All-season tyres don;t work much better than summer tyres when the temperature drops below -20C, as the rubber compounds that have to withstand high summer temperatures become too rigid. You say you have driven on snow tyres in the past. Old technology snow tyres have about as much in common with a modern winter tyre as a cross-ply tyre has to a radial tyre - very little.

When it was -25C with snow covered roads here a month ago, I was following an AWD Suzuki SX4 turning into the Ikea parking lot, all of it's wheels spinning, polishing the ice. I had no wheel spin issue at all with our 135i running Pirreli Sottozero winter tyres, all I could think was "come on, get out of my way". Took a look at the tyres on the Suzuki after I parked, Bridgestone Turanze all-seasons with more tread depth than the Pirellis on our car.

Running all-seasons in poor winter conditions isn't stupid, but it does reduce the vehicle capabilities considerably on cold surfaces. At the moment about 50% of passenger cars run winter tyres in Canada,but in Quebec it is now 98%. Due to the 18% drop in winter accidents in Quebec since the mandatory use of winter tyres was introduced, other provinces are looking at following suit. As this link indicates ( http://forums.speedguide.net/archive.../t-136533.html ), stopping from 80km/h (50mph) using winter tyres on a cold snow surface takes 70m compared with 112m on all-seasons. This is equivalent to the difference between the braking performance of a Ferrari 599 with carbon-ceramic brakes and a Ford F250 after brake fade, according to these C&D test results:
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...2a7d0f289c.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...bb80e37d09.pdf

[JimD]

I drove in the snow belt from 1971 to 1999. I still visit it sometimes but since I do not live there, my winter weather driving is much more limited these days. This included negative temperatures (Farenheit) but not very often. We lived in Kansas City, Omaha, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh during this time. 28 years experience, with zero weather related accidents, does not permit a legitimate claim I am "ignorant" of winter driving. During several of these years, I was driving 50-60K miles per year (mostly for work). As those with experience know, driving in snow is not nearly the issue as is driving on ice. Icy conditions are dangerous and best avoided regardless of what you are driving and what kind of tires you have. Chains or studs will allow you to move but it is still dangerous. I have driven on roads that were so slick you could not stand on them, you would slide to the berm. I did not have studs or chains, I had all season tires on the car. I would not willingly do this again but I got where I was going.

I am not trying to argue that snow tires are not better. If you can afford or want two sets of tires for your car, I think they are the way to go. The real question is whether you need two sets of tires. I believe, based upon quite a bit of experience, that you do not. You have to slow down more and avoid the worst conditions but if you are carefull, you can get by successfully on all seasons. I did for many years. But if you want to be able to go a tiny bit faster or be a little safer, dedicated summer and winter tires will give you a little more margin. It is certainly no night or day difference nor does it take the place of knowing what you are doing.

Jim

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by JimD

if you want to be able to go a tiny bit faster or be a little safer, dedicated summer and winter tires will give you a little more margin.

You are entitled to call a 50-60% difference in stopping distance "little" if you want. But the 50-60% difference is a fact, which has been shown over and over again in this thread, with authoritative references.

[JimD]

Gary,

I've seen lots of opinions that snow tires are required but I haven't really seen any authoritative references nor could I find any that support your claims of 50-60% difference. This one is close for stopping difference, however:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=103

By going a little slower, a driver with all season tires can compensate, however. That is essentially my point. If you drive within the limits of your vehicle including it's tires, you will be fine with all season tires. If you exceed it's limits, regardless of your choice of tires, you will get in trouble.

The other thing that I think you may be missing is that roads are most typically wet, not covered by snow and ice. When they are covered by snow and ice, the best course of action remains to stay home. When that is not possible, I'd rather have snow tires too but for the relatively few times a year this happens, slowing down on all seasons is a viable alternative.

Jim

[GaryS]

^^ The Tire Rack test shows a 50% difference. This one shows a 60% difference:

"All-season tires can be misleading, they should really be called three-season tires," said Goodyear product manager Michael Cosentino. "In winter conditions, you just don't have the same biting grip." ... a recent Goodyear winter performance test showed a car travelling at 80 km/h on snow tires took 70 metres to stop. The same car on all-season performance tires took 112 metres. That's 60% more pavement.

http://forums.speedguide.net/showthr...se-Snow-Tires&

adding: "over and over again" was a little harsh, sorry.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by GaryS

You are entitled to call a 50-60% difference in stopping distance "little" if you want. But the 50-60% difference is a fact, which has been shown over and over again in this thread, with authoritative references.

Expressed in a different way, if it takes 70m to stop on snow with winter tyres from 80km/h and 112m to stop with all-seasons, then a constant maximum g-force for stopping of 0.36g and 0.22g can be generated, respectively.

That means you can descend a 21 degree hill with the winter tyres before sliding to the bottom out of control, whereas you can only descend a 13 degree hill with the all-season tyres before sliding to the bottom out of control.

Or, in terms of taking a turn, driving around a 30m (100 foot) radius turn can be accomplished at 37km/h (23mph) with winter tyres, compared with 29km/h (18mph) with all-seasons, before skidding off the road.

[JimD]

Aerobod,

Thanks for doing the math. I was trying to come up with a simple way to express it and I think your 18mph versus 23mph is quite good. Because the demands on the tire go up with the square of the speed, you do not have to back off a whole lot to compensate for the reduced traction of all season tires. But your illustration also shows there are some hills that you may not be able to navigate with the all seasons and could with the snow tires.

Jim