1 Series M or 11 Mustang GT??

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Roundel's got it right. Too bad I can't afford to have these two drastically different flavors of ice cream at the same time.

That's exactly why I like having a couple of very different cars. After not driving one for a while, you tend to appreciate it more because it feels like a different driving experience all over again.

[bradleyland]

Here's one to ponder. You can buy a reasonably well equipped 135i for around $42k. The non-premium GT is available right at $30k. So, if you bought both cars, you'd be at $72k. It is not terribly difficult to get to $72k when optioning an M3. So if your preferences are like mine, you could have the BMW for your daily driver with all the qualities of "refinement" that I look for, as well as the GT in the garage for the days you want to get the lead out.

Hell, knock that down to a 128i (or leased 328i) for your daily driver just to increase the contrast between your daily driver and the monster hiding in the garage. Spend the extra money on the Boss model or something. If they offered a Mustang with an interior that was more like the one in the Fiesta (yeah, I said it!), I think I'd stand a better chance of buying one. I just can't get in to the retro look. I think someone said it best when they pointed out that it looks like an old jukebox. Meh.

Oh, and while we're customizing Fords for the hell of it. How about a chrome delete package? I don't need that much bling! lol

[BrokenVert]

^speaking of fiestas I'm totally picking up one as my daily driver when I retire the 135 to weekend duty...let's hope the ecoboost rumors are true!

[JimmyT]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Who are you and what have you done with roundel?

LOL on that one!!!

Researching drag time posted by owners in other forums and other magazines, the MGT tested by MT is about .2 of a second faster in the 0-60 sprint and .3-.5 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile. MRs own article on an'08 M3 with DCT. Posted faster times and better performance in most recorded categories than the M3 tested. I'm not saying "ringer" but that is one healthy motor in the 5.0!!!

I will give credit where it is due, and the engineers at Ford have built one he'll of a motor and chassis combination in the 2011 MGT! If 40K was my ceiling for the price of my next new car, the MGT would be a contender for me. Last weekend, I had the opportunity to look at both cars, and preferred the M3 for it's interior quality and balance of the vehicle when driving. The 5.0 is a torque monster, and the BMW engineers have a task ahead of them to make the next M3 "The ultimate driving machine"!

[PrimoM3]

I wish this thread would just go away...

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Primo135

I wish this thread would just go away...

Sorry Primo. It goes nowhere. The performance numbers are too close for this thread to be irrelevant. BMW needs to see. The 1M must now eclipse the M3 in most categories to fend off you know who. We shouldn't have to make excuses like "but it feels better" for our M cars.

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Sorry Primo. It goes nowhere. The performance numbers are too close for this thread to be irrelevant. BMW needs to see. The 1M must now eclipse the M3 in most categories to fend off you know who. We shouldn't have to make excuses like "but it feels better" for our M cars.

BF - I totally agree: BMW needs to step up with the next ///M3 to compete with the clearly capable (and impressive) Mustang. I'm betting the 1///M will be on par with the Mustang GT, but probably not the BOSS model.

My frustration with this thread is that it is a forum pissing contest between the ///M3 and the Mustang.... in a 1///M sub-forum! The Mustang is awesome, so is the ///M3. Both great cars with nearly the same performance, but the Mustang being a much better value. Some don't care about value. Some prefer prestige and creature comforts. Neither side of the fence is wrong. End thread.

Now, can we get back on track discussing the upcoming 1///M? Danke.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Primo135

BF - I totally agree: BMW needs to step up with the next ///M3 to compete with the clearly capable (and impressive) Mustang. I'm betting the 1///M will be on par with the Mustang GT, but probably not the BOSS model.

My frustration with this thread is that it is a forum pissing contest between the ///M3 and the Mustang.... in a 1///M sub-forum! The Mustang is awesome, so is the ///M3. Both great cars with nearly the same performance, but the Mustang being a much better value. Some don't care about value. Some prefer prestige and creature comforts. Neither side of the fence is wrong. End thread.

Now, can we get back on track discussing the upcoming 1///M? Danke.

Yea, i see what you're saying. It really hasn't been a day at the beach these past few weeks in here. Our 1M dedicated threads had been pretty dead info wise so its only natural. Hopefully this week BMW will give us something else to focus on.

[PrimoM3]

Originally Posted by BForbes

Yea, i see what you're saying. It really hasn't been a day at the beach these past few weeks in here. Our 1M dedicated threads had been pretty dead info wise so its only natural. Hopefully this week BMW will give us something else to focus on.

[MarcusDubya77]

Originally Posted by Hoad

To the OP: If you are stationed overseas contact the U.S. Military Sales office at usmilitarysales@bmwna.com or (800) 932-0821 if you decide on the BMW. You'll save thousands doing the stateside delivery program.

I already have 28K involved with the BMW overseas program. I heavily want a 1M, which hopefully I will be able to get for around 42K using military sales. If the price starts creeping up to 50K, then I will have to relook my options. I have an SUV I have to buy for the wife, so there is 40K there. So, now you can understand why price is important for me, and the Mustang GT, well now 302 is a pretty sweet deal. Plus they have a sales program. This thread wasn't meant to get out of hand, and turn into an all out slug fest. Roundel has provided a lot of insight considering he own both. If the 1M is anything like a testament of the 135i it will be super sick.

[auto-rocks]

I am currently cross-shopping the 5.0 and the 1M. I have driven the SS camaro and the 370Z. I definitely liked the 370Z over the SS. However, I need a backseat, hence the 1M. I have driven the 128i and loved it. I have not driven the 5.0, but have seen many white hairs in my area driving them.

I just like good engineering and exclusivity over a dime-a-dozen mustang. I think the 1M will be timeless...

[///Mangler]

No worries guys. The 1M will be better than the MGT, and the new M3 will be phenominal.

They are comparing a new model to a 5yr old model.

T

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

No worries guys. The 1M will be better than the MGT, and the new M3 will be phenominal.

They are comparing a new model to a 5yr old model.

T

So you're saying the 1M will be better than the M3?

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by BForbes

So you're saying the 1M will be better than the M3?

The current M3? Yes. A smaller, lighter, more nimble is always better than larger and heavier. They will have the same power to weight ratio and identical 0-60 times. The 1M will shine in all other areas. Ala, Cayman S.

T

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

The current M3? Yes. A smaller, lighter, more nimble is always better than larger and heavier. They will have the same power to weight ratio and identical 0-60 times. The 1M will shine in all other areas. Ala, Cayman S.

T

I wholeheartedly hope you're right. I feel that it has to be. Thanks for clearing it up. You were claiming BS that a MGT wouldn't be able to come close to an M3 a few months ago. That's been debunked. Even the M3 guys are showing respect and acknowledgment. I'm still waiting on the '11 Shelby VIR times.

This statement concerns me from Dr. K Segler:

How important is the BMW M3 to BMW ?
As far as BMW M GmbH is concerned it is the core model, the backbone. No other BMW M automobile embodies the values of our brand more consistently. This applies not just to BMW M but to BMW as a whole.

This one gives me hope:

What might such a model be like(1M)?
This model will be based on the BMW 1 Series Coupé and also be focused on the essentials - the fascination of driving. And it will reflect a love of detail, too.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BForbes

As per the article the Mustang felt better balanced and understeered less.

Can you imagine the BOSS 302 we kept going back and forth about? Does this mean a GT would eek out a non ZCP M3? You are definitely right in terms of the BMW not being about tangible value. I'm not so worried about the M3 as much as I am about the 1M. I hope they understand that it needs to outperform. A Bimmer will always be a BMW and that counts for a lot but numbers are hard to ignore sometimes.

Not exactly. The Mustang in that article was not the better balanced vehicle, per the article. Yes, the M3 was cited for having more under steer, though that is an oddity for sure, as nearly every other review does not mention this attribute. Could it be the competition pkg. isn't as well tuned as it should be?
Maybe.

But, to the point, the M3 was noted as the better balanced and more refined driver and handler by that article, and by the pro driver.
The GT dove heavily under braking, and as noted by the pro driver, at speeds above 80mph the suspension was not up to the task in terms of driver control and feel.

I've complimented the GT a lot as it's an amazing machine, especially given it's price. I would think that BMW loyalists at least give credit where credit is due, at least as auto enthusiasts.
The GT is a damn nice automobile.

The 302 is still in question though. It needs to be tested as well.
After all, most would have expected a comp pkg M3 to perform even better than the standard M3, but it seems it showed a lot of unexpected under steer. So, the Boss may bring more power, but we'll have to wait an see if the suspension bits improve it over the GT. It should.

Those who think they can outrun and out drive the new GT with their 135i, well, you should think again. This test demonstrates how good the GT is.
If you think our 135i is better, then you must think it's also better than an M3.

I agree with you that the bigger question/issue is, what about the 1M?
If BMW doesn't want this kind of press, then they better do something REALLY special with the 1M. After all, that will be the car more in line with the price point, and it will still be MORE expensive.

One more thing; BMW has a new M3 coming. Of course that still doesn't take away from the great showing of the GT.
I applaud Ford. Job well done, regardless of that live rear axle.
Now, fix the brake dive.

I'll be very interested to see how the Boss or the GT does against the CTS-V, as the V has a very strong engine.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Not exactly. The Mustang in that article was not the better balanced vehicle, per the article. Yes, the M3 was cited for having more under steer, though that is an oddity for sure, as nearly every other review does not mention this attribute. Could it be the competition pkg. isn't as well tuned as it should be?
Maybe.

But, to the point, the M3 was noted as the better balanced and more refined driver and handler by that article, and by the pro driver.
The GT dove heavily under braking, and as noted by the pro driver, at speeds above 80mph the suspension was not up to the task in terms of driver control and feel.

I've complimented the GT a lot as it's an amazing machine, especially given it's price. I would think that BMW loyalists at least give credit where credit is due, at least as auto enthusiasts.
The GT is a damn nice automobile.

The 302 is still in question though. It needs to be tested as well.
After all, most would have expected a comp pkg M3 to perform even better than the standard M3, but it seems it showed a lot of unexpected under steer. So, the Boss may bring more power, but we'll have to wait an see if the suspension bits improve it over the GT. It should.

Those who think they can outrun and out drive the new GT with their 135i, well, you should think again. This test demonstrates how good the GT is.
If you think our 135i is better, then you must think it's also better than an M3.

I agree with you that the bigger question/issue is, what about the 1M?
If BMW doesn't want this kind of press, then they better do something REALLY special with the 1M. After all, that will be the car more in line with the price point, and it will still be MORE expensive.

One more thing; BMW has a new M3 coming. Of course that still doesn't take away from the great showing of the GT.
I applaud Ford. Job well done, regardless of that live rear axle.
Now, fix the brake dive.

I'll be very interested to see how the Boss or the GT does against the CTS-V, as the V has a very strong engine.

I was only quoting this:

"Another surprise was the BMW understeers more. A lot more," he continues. "And that for me, took some of the fun out of it. It made it an easier car to drive fast, but it was not as much fun. The balance wasn't as good."

Everything else you said was right. It sounds a bit contradictory what they said. The problem is that there isn't a clear defined definition of "balance." God knows Porsche's by the weight specs aren't balanced but on the track proves different. Perhaps they were specifically talking about it in regards to certain maneuver but didn't specify. I really dont know. The BMW rightfully won for the reasons you stated and more.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BForbes

I was only quoting this:

"Another surprise was the BMW understeers more. A lot more," he continues. "And that for me, took some of the fun out of it. It made it an easier car to drive fast, but it was not as much fun. The balance wasn't as good."

Everything else you said was right. It sounds a bit contradictory what they said. The problem is that there isn't a clear defined definition of "balance." God knows Porsche's by the weight specs aren't balanced but on the track proves different. Perhaps they were specifically talking about it in regards to certain maneuver but didn't specify. I really dont know. The BMW rightfully won for the reasons you stated and more.

Yeah, the article had some inconsistent comments.

Here's your quote and more:
"Another surprise was the BMW understeers more. A lot more," he continues. "And that for me, took some of the fun out of it. It made it an easier car to drive fast, but it was not as much fun. The balance wasn't as good."

BMW's smooth 4.0-liter V-8 trades mid-range punch for dizzying revs. It's a modern marvel, especially when paired with the M3's springy six-speed. Murdered-out cabin is blah to some, but all business where it counts.

But the BMW shines where it matters most: "The BMW has far better shock control when being driven hard, which gave tremendous advantage on the hairiest part of this track," says Pobst. "I don't know for sure how fast my speed was, but it sure felt a lot quicker in the BMW."
Which is why when pressed, Randy admits that he believes he set the fastest lap in the M3. So do I. "I think the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed," he says. "It has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."


Other than the under steer, the steering had more feedback, the suspension is better balanced, and vehicle control under braking was better. All that resulted in a slightly faster M3 lap time, even though it didn't have the mid range punch of the 5.0.

As I read it, they were quite enamored with how well the GT performed, so most of the comments were geared towards that enthusiasm or amazement. But, as it reads, the M3 still seems better balanced overall.
It that odd under steer could be corrected, unless it's part of the tuning, it sounds as if the M would have notched up a bit better commentary.

Yeah, it's odd to say "better balanced", then say "It's more refined.....and FAR better controlled."

[/COLOR][/LEFT]

[bradleyland]

What I took away from it was that the MGT was more balanced in terms of oversteer/understeer, but the suspension wasn't as "composed". A well composed suspension gives the driver confidence. You feel as if the car is reacting quickly to your inputs and "settles" quickly when changing direction. This is the illusive "feel" that we all talk about BMW having and Fords lacking.

Notice how surprised the driver is that the MGT was so close to the M3. You can bet this wasn't because he's a roundel worshiper. The M3 felt more composed to him, so despite the understeer and less torque, he was convinced that his laps in the M3 were faster. This is the feedback that pro drivers are tuned to. All things being equal, the car that delivers them better composure should be faster around the track. In this case, all things weren't equal.

Two things got the MGT around that track fast:

* More mid-range torque from the fantastic 5.0 V8
* Better over/understeer balance allowing for earlier throttle application

When you understeer, you're going to suffer lower cornering speeds, exit slower, and get on the gas later. The car may feel great as you enter the turn and in high-speed transitions, but you'll be slower around the track as a result.

[trahsub]

It's funny how this thread has evolved into Mustang vs M3. If BMW holds true to the M1 being purposely below the capability of the M3, it's over, M1 doesn't stand a chance to the GT, and the Boss, forget it.

I find it surprising that so many could never believe someone cross shopping an M1/M3 with a Mustang. There are still drivers out there that want a potent car and can look beyond the badge.

BMW needs to stop coming out with disasters like the X6 and 5GT, and start focusing on their core again.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by trahsub

It's funny how this thread has evolved into Mustang vs M3. If BMW holds true to the M1 being purposely below the capability of the M3, it's over, M1 doesn't stand a chance to the GT, and the Boss, forget it.

I find it surprising that so many could never believe someone cross shopping an M1/M3 with a Mustang. There are still drivers out there that want a potent car and can look beyond the badge.

BMW needs to stop coming out with disasters like the X6 and 5GT, and start focusing on their core again.

I like the X6 =)

[N54 powered]

Originally Posted by BForbes

[COLOR=Navy]I wholeheartedly hope you're right. I feel that it has to be. Thanks for clearing it up. You were claiming BS that a MGT wouldn't be able to come close to an M3 a few months ago. That's been debunked. Even the M3 guys are showing respect and acknowledgment. I'm still waiting on the '11 Shelby VIR times.

Wait no more, It has been out for a while now.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/18/v...nds/#continued

.3 back on a C6 Z06

Faster than a V10 R8, GT3, C6 grand sport, amongst others