135 convertible regrets??

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You know what's really cool? Caymans.

When I was in Costa Rica I stayed at a hotel in the middle of the rainforest.

There were two ways to get to the hotel. You could land a floatplane just offshore in the Pacific and taxi in, or you could hop a boat and run the rivers for 3 hours to get there.


I took the river - which was filled with Caymans. So we slow down in a few spots to get good views of some of the wildlife and while looking at birds a Cayman swims up to the stopped boat. You can see his head sticking up - checking everything out.

My guide looked at the Croc and thought "Im gonna catch that" So as the Cayman swims by Manuel throws his hand into the water and grans the base of its tail. He holds it there for about a minute, the Cayman thrashing away and he says. Once hes tired himself out im gonna bring him on the boat.

Fortunately for my briefs the Cayman slipped out of his hands. I dont know what I wouldve done, being trapped on a 25ft boat in the middle of a river in a secluded rainforest with a 10-15 foot Croc.


But yeah, that was Manuel, my Latino Steve Irwin. Loved the two weeks I spent with that guy as my guide.

[Red Bread]

Haha, nice diversion. Haven't you been dragged into enough of these never ending discussions recently?

[Mark16q]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

When I was in Costa Rica I stayed at a hotel in the middle of the rainforest.

There were two ways to get to the hotel. You could land a floatplane just offshore in the Pacific and taxi in, or you could hop a boat and run the rivers for 3 hours to get there.


I took the river - which was filled with Caymans. So we slow down in a few spots to get good views of some of the wildlife and while looking at birds a Cayman swims up to the stopped boat. You can see his head sticking up - checking everything out.

My guide looked at the Croc and thought "Im gonna catch that" So as the Cayman swims by Manuel throws his hand into the water and grans the base of its tail. He holds it there for about a minute, the Cayman thrashing away and he says. Once hes tired himself out im gonna bring him on the boat.

Fortunately for my briefs the Cayman slipped out of his hands. I dont know what I wouldve done, being trapped on a 25ft boat in the middle of a river in a secluded rainforest with a 10-15 foot Croc.


But yeah, that was Manuel, my Latino Steve Irwin. Loved the two weeks I spent with that guy as my guide.

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

That link shows exactly nothing that makes me think the 1 series is any stiffer relative to it's coupe brethren than any other vert relative to it's coupe counterpart.

Not even the part where they actually *state* that it's stiffer relative to its coupe than other verts relative to their coupes? Okay....

Not even sure what you were trying to show with that link?

Well, you said that you've seen nothing to suggest that the vert is any different from other verts, so, well, I thought it might be nice to see something that suggests that it is. But hey, silly me....

First off... that's 3%, not .03%-- you're off by a factor of 100 (helpful tip: percentages are not calculated by subtraction).

Yes, it's a mistake. I admit my error, but you won't admit yours. Of course I'll be happy to restate:

If you can tell a difference of three percent in handling, more power to you. I don't think most of us can. In fact I seriously doubt that most COUPE owners can. But that's cool, coupe owners can have their Dale Earnhardt fantasies, and we can have our Mario Andretti fantasies, and everybody's happy.

Well, except you, apparently.

As soon as people stop claiming there isn't a significant performance difference between the cars, I'll stop annoying you by posting facts that point out that there is.

"Significant" is a subjective term. You say you can tell the difference, great, but I don't think most of your fellow coupe buyers can -- even most of the serious enthusiasts. I'm sorry that opinion offends you, but I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with the fact that Somebody on the Internet is Wrong.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You know what's really cool? Caymans.

Can't argue that!

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Can't argue that!

You would. They're heavier than their very counterparts by about 40 pounds!

Now that's a difference you can feel!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Now go read what I actually wrote.

I specifically stated e60 528i and chevy colorado crew cab. Both of which are/were contemporaries of the one series.

Have fun looking them up

I've actually been following the thread from it's onset.

Regarding the whole weight issue, here's a better way to look at the difference between the E60, Chevy pickup truck, and 135i vert, which would you rather drive on a nice sunny day on twisty country roads?
For me, that's easy, I'll take the 135i vert MT or AT always.
Anyone for the 528i? NO?
Chevy pickup? No, again. Great.
There's the answer on how much the extra weight really means to someone who likes convertibles.

You also made this comment:
I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't get a vert, just making sure people actually realize what they're giving up when they do so. As again and again the vert people (like you) like to claim it's insignificant/unnoticeable.

Why do you have such a need to make sure people realize that?
Do you really believe that the people you are conversing with on this site don't already know there is a weight difference?

Do you still think that vert buyers are really that concerned about torsional rigidity? And, of those who do care, they know that BMW also cares and thus BMW addressed that question with added bracing. That's another reason why there is more weight. BMW thus believes that chassis stiffness is important, and perhaps more so than overall weight.

Broken vert is the most outspoken in this thread, and he too knows that the vert weighs more.
He never said there was no difference, he knows there is.
From what I've read, his assertion is that the added weight is less of a hindrance considering the effort BMW took to add bracing and that bracing has a more pronounced positive effect, then the added weight.

Yes, you're going to have extra weight with a vert, but, the rigidity may be even more important. You can better tune the suspension on a rigid pencil compared to a floppy hot dog.
You go with added bracing to stiffen the chassis, knowing you are increasing weight. But in the end, the added stiffness returns a better driving/handling experience at the cost of less power to weight and slower 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

I think that both sides have valid points, but you guys keep talking past each other with the little personal digs like, "well, if you can't feel that difference, then go with the model that I find to be inferior, cause you're inferior." Digs like that don't help, and are not necessary if you're trying for a more technical discussion or debate.

So, it seems that your problem with BK's point of view, is that he doesn't feel the weight difference is as much of a negative as you believe it is or should be.
He acknowledges the weight difference, yet states that he doesn't feel that the added weight has had that much negative effect on his verts performance.
You counter his experience with his vert, by posting numbers and your own assertions on how bad the 135i vert must be compared to a 135i coupe.

Well, BK has a 135i vert, and it's likely he's driven the coupes as well. What do you drive and have extensive experience with?
Right, neither a 135i coupe nor vert.
Ok. We have valid points and argument, and we have valid real life experience. I think we're done.


Thanks to everyone in the arena and to everyone playing along at home.
Have a good night, and we'll see you all back here next week for another session of:
"WTF are we talking about anyway!?"

Bye bye!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

You would. They're heavier than their very counterparts by about 40 pounds!

Now that's a difference you can feel!

hmm... I suppose I meant same gen for same gen. Still waiting on the new cayman!

Even as is, the extra rigidity from the coupe may be worth the 40s lbs over the boxster.

That said, if I were to buy a vert... it would be a new boxster S or recent boxster spyder.

[Obioban]

Okay, so final thoughts.

The reason that it should be pointed out that the stiffness and weight is worse is exactly that lots of people buying new cars don't realize that. Everyone should be able to make a fully educated decision when deciding between a coupe and vert!

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Okay, so final thoughts.

The reason that it should be pointed out that the stiffness and weight is worse is exactly that lots of people buying new cars don't realize that. Everyone should be able to make a fully educated decision when deciding between a coupe and vert!

As soon as people stop claiming there isn't a significant performance difference between the cars, I'll stop annoying you by posting facts that point out that there is.

You drive a car (listed in your sig) with air conditioning, a radio, and a navigation system. All of these things -- inarguably -- reduce the performance of the car by some small amount. You don't think that reduction is "significant", but you do think that the reduction in stiffness caused by a convertible top is "significant". So there's no black and white here. You simply draw a line in a different place.

Yet you feel the need to declare our line "significant" and set people straight on this matter, so that they don't make an "uneducated" decision.

Judging by your statement above, any new vert owner who shows up in this forum and posts "difference didn't seem significant to me, so I bought the vert", you'll be there to set them straight. Gee.

Also, you are at odds with your own statements:

I enjoy how you keep saying I'm the intolerant one when I've said in every post that a vert is fine if it meets your car wants/needs whereas you keep saying my car wants/needs are invalid

No you're not, you're saying that our judgment is impaired by misconception and error over the definition of the word "significant".

Lighter is beneficial at all speeds.

Except, apparently, if it means ditching the radio, A/C and Nav.

What I've been doing in this thread, more than anything else, is giving context to numbers.

You're confusing "context" with "opinion".

I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't get a vert, just making sure people actually realize what they're giving up when they do so. As again and again the vert people (like you) like to claim it's insignificant/unnoticeable.

So from now on, every time you post something about your car's performance, I guess I should reply pointing out that you sacrifice significant/noticable performance in exchange for music, comfort and directions. And not acknowledge that significant/noticable are just my opinions -- rather I should insist that these things are objective facts.

You know, to give your post some "context".

[coda72]

Lol, I don't have the energy for this argument, but go vert guys! Keep defending our decision, although, I, like many other vert owners don't need the coupe owners input or so called objective data.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Pangloss

You drive a car (listed in your sig) with air conditioning, a radio, and a navigation system. All of these things -- inarguably -- reduce the performance of the car by some small amount. You don't think that reduction is "significant", but you do think that the reduction in stiffness caused by a convertible top is "significant". So there's no black and white here. You simply draw a line in a different place.

Yet you feel the need to declare our line "significant" and set people straight on this matter, so that they don't make an "uneducated" decision.

Judging by your statement above, any new vert owner who shows up in this forum and posts "difference didn't seem significant to me, so I bought the vert", you'll be there to set them straight. Gee.

Also, you are at odds with your own statements:



No you're not, you're saying that our judgment is impaired by misconception and error over the definition of the word "significant".



Except, apparently, if it means ditching the radio, A/C and Nav.



You're confusing "context" with "opinion".



So from now on, every time you post something about your car's performance, I guess I should reply pointing out that you sacrifice significant/noticable performance in exchange for music, comfort and directions. And not acknowledge that significant/noticable are just my opinions -- rather I should insist that these things are objective facts.

You know, to give your post some "context".

Ha. Amusingly, one of my cars doesn't have AC or heat or radio or nav, all in the name of weight. Or windows, for that matter



pretty sure you were joking on the rest, but I can respond seriously if you'd like.

[zhp43867]

Wow! This thread is absolutely absurd! I don't even look at this forum much, but believe it or not this thread has been getting some attention from other car forums.

Outsider opinions (I've driven the E82/E88):

- .86g vs .89g is significant. How many people here have bought a new set of top of the line summer tires and thought, "Wow! Theses are so sticky!" That difference versus your old tires was more than likely around .03g

- The handling difference between any coupe and convertible is going to be significant! It really isn't that close. That excludes cars like the S2000, which were built as roadsters and as such a coupe version wouldn't add much to them.

- BrokenVert, stop telling people to quit driving irresponsibly. By your choice of a 318is, 135i, and S2000, I'd be willing to bet you've made tires howl on the street more than a few times.

- Just because the handling difference is significant at the limit does not mean the convertible isn't worth every lost .01g! Convertibles are great. If I had a 1 series I'd get a 135i convertible to add to a stable that already includes cars that don't even have a sunroof. For my summer cruiser (which I'd still beat on) I could give a flying fvck about the weight penalty in this case. YMMV

- Finally- just because you (whoever) made a decision doesn't make it right for everyone. There's way too much of that going on from both sides here.

BrokenVert & Obioban, and to a lesser extent RPM90: I'd like to thank you for saving me On Demand money, you have successfully provided this evening's entertainment.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You know what's really cool? Caymans.

They also happen to be 100% more torsionally rigid than Boxsters.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by zhp43867

Wow! This thread is absolutely absurd! I don't even look at this forum much, but believe it or not this thread has been getting some attention from other car forums.

Links?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by zhp43867

Wow! This thread is absolutely absurd! I don't even look at this forum much, but believe it or not this thread has been getting some attention from other car forums.

Outsider opinions (I've driven the E82/E88):

- .86g vs .89g is significant. How many people here have bought a new set of top of the line summer tires and thought, "Wow! Theses are so sticky!" That difference versus your old tires was more than likely around .03g

- The handling difference between any coupe and convertible is going to be significant! It really isn't that close. That excludes cars like the S2000, which were built as roadsters and as such a coupe version wouldn't add much to them.

- BrokenVert, stop telling people to quit driving irresponsibly. By your choice of a 318is, 135i, and S2000, I'd be willing to bet you've made tires howl on the street more than a few times.

- Just because the handling difference is significant at the limit does not mean the convertible isn't worth every lost .01g! Convertibles are great. If I had a 1 series I'd get a 135i convertible to add to a stable that already includes cars that don't even have a sunroof. For my summer cruiser (which I'd still beat on) I could give a flying fvck about the weight penalty in this case. YMMV

- Finally- just because you (whoever) made a decision doesn't make it right for everyone. There's way too much of that going on from both sides here.

BrokenVert & Obioban, and to a lesser extent RPM90: I'd like to thank you for saving me On Demand money, you have successfully provided this evening's entertainment.

Man, just as it starts to settle down, you gotta come on here and stir the same pot with all the same ingredients all over again!?

BTW, you are welcome.
My Xfinity/On Demand doesn't work so well at times.
I have to constantly reboot the freaking cable box!

[ChristianReyess]

I feel like some people just post things to get more post under their belts sometimes. -___-

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

They also happen to be 100% more torsionally rigid than Boxsters.

I'd like to see proof of that claim.




And I'm too lazy to quote it on my phone. But there's a difference between driving with some enthusiasm and kicking the tail out sideways on the street.

I get most of my chops out at the track. This guy should do the same with E36. You have to know when to turn off the boy racer

[zhp43867]

Originally Posted by ChristianReyess

I feel like some people just post things to get more post under their belts sometimes. -___-

Yup I really give a shiiit about your cars enough that I'd post just to get one under my belt.

A buddy on another forum sent me a PM about this ridiculous thread. He does not even have a s 1 series (anymore).

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by RPM90

My Xfinity/On Demand doesn't work so well at times.
I have to constantly reboot the freaking cable box!

(sorry to be off topic, but given the thread...)

My Xfinity had the same problem and the remote would often lose communication with the box. So after rewiring my house and replacing the box 3 times, the technician only had a DVDR box left on his truck. It was installed and I'm enjoying the added features without additional charge and no rebooting.

Apparently, a lot of the "remanufactured" boxes are of questionable quality, so keep after the cable company to make it right

Tom.

[Pangloss]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Ha. Amusingly, one of my cars doesn't have AC or heat or radio or nav, all in the name of weight. Or windows, for that matter

pretty sure you were joking on the rest, but I can respond seriously if you'd like.

As I said before, one of the cars in your signature has radio, A/C, Navigation, etc. You list it in your signature. You made that decision, yet chastise others to made a slightly different one.

[Pangloss]

So, no dodging.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Okay, so final thoughts.

The reason that it should be pointed out that the stiffness and weight is worse is exactly that lots of people buying new cars don't realize that. Everyone should be able to make a fully educated decision when deciding between a coupe and vert!

As soon as people stop claiming there isn't a significant performance difference between the cars, I'll stop annoying you by posting facts that point out that there is.

You drive a car (listed in your sig) with air conditioning, a radio, and a navigation system. All of these things -- inarguably -- reduce the performance of the car by some small amount. You don't think that reduction is "significant", but you do think that the reduction in stiffness caused by a convertible top is "significant". So there's no black and white here. You simply draw a line in a different place.

Yet you feel the need to declare our line "significant" and set people straight on this matter, so that they don't make an "uneducated" decision.

Judging by your statement above, any new vert owner who shows up in this forum and posts "difference didn't seem significant to me, so I bought the vert", you'll be there to set them straight. Gee.

Also, you are at odds with your own statements:

I enjoy how you keep saying I'm the intolerant one when I've said in every post that a vert is fine if it meets your car wants/needs whereas you keep saying my car wants/needs are invalid

No you're not, you're saying that our judgment is impaired by misconception and error over the definition of the word "significant".

Lighter is beneficial at all speeds.

Except, apparently, if it means ditching the radio, A/C and Nav.

What I've been doing in this thread, more than anything else, is giving context to numbers.

You're confusing "context" with "opinion".

I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't get a vert, just making sure people actually realize what they're giving up when they do so. As again and again the vert people (like you) like to claim it's insignificant/unnoticeable.

So from now on, every time you post something about your car's performance, I guess I should reply pointing out that you sacrifice significant/noticable performance in exchange for music, comfort and directions. And not acknowledge that significant/noticable are just my opinions -- rather I should insist that these things are objective facts.

You know, to give your post some "context".