Dinan stage 2 tune and PPK

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

My indie that did the Dinan S2 tune said they don't charge for any reflashes. I just pay once.

That's a good deal. Wish they were all like that.

[Toome]

Why is no one considering MHD? You can change the tune and burbles anytime you want.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Toome

Why is no one considering MHD? You can change the tune and burbles anytime you want.

For me, I'm one of the lucky ones which need to have a bench flash. Between having my car down waiting for the DME to be sent to a tuner who can do it, for them to do the bench flash, and then shipped back to me is a no go as this car presently is my daily driver. Also, the amount of work required to pull the DME is enough for me to say no thanks given I had an easier option with the Dinan S2.

If any of the tuners offered a core exchange where they shipped a DME which has already been flashed to me, I swap DMEs, and send my old one back to them, then I would consider it. That's if it's even possible to do something like this. But as yet no tuner offers a service like this.

[Toome]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

For me, I'm one of the lucky ones which need to have a bench flash. Between having my car down waiting for the DME to be sent to a tuner who can do it, for them to do the bench flash, and then shipped back to me is a no go as this car presently is my daily driver. Also, the amount of work required to pull the DME is enough for me to say no thanks given I had an easier option with the Dinan S2.

If any of the tuners offered a core exchange where they shipped a DME which has already been flashed to me, I swap DMEs, and send my old one back to them, then I would consider it. That's if it's even possible to do something like this. But as yet no tuner offers a service like this.

That make sense. I was in the situation and just bit the bullet and did the unlock myself. Definitely hope there is a better solution in the future.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Toome

Why is no one considering MHD? You can change the tune and burbles anytime you want.

A couple of reasons, and don't take any of this as knocking MHD - I love what they've done for our platform and may go that route one day. But...

1. Do you see how many people on the N55 MHD thread are writing in with "I have this issue or that issue" and asking for help? Do you know how many times I've contacted Dinan asking for help because of issues with my tune in the three years I've had it?
Exactly Zero. It just works. Every time. All day, every day.

2. Again, not knocking them, and I've been told the "soft" burble setting is more like the PPK, but the videos of the burbles in action on the MHD sound like shit. Gunshot-like backfires instead of the sweet gurgling rumble the PPK makes.

3. I too have a later model locked DME, and I don't feel like taking it out right now.

4. My 135 is my long-term daily driver. I am not out drag racing and looking for every HP I can squeak out of it at the possible risk of reducing longevity and reliability. I want more power, yes, but I am willing to give up a few HP for a tried and true, long-term reliable tune.

To each his own, my friend, and like I said, I may do MHD some day when they've got the kinks all worked out, but there is a reason it's called Beta testing.

Does that answer your question?

[Toome]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

A couple of reasons, and don't take any of this as knocking MHD - I love what they've done for our platform and may go that route one day. But...

1. Do you see how many people on the N55 MHD thread are writing in with "I have this issue or that issue" and asking for help? Do you know how many times I've contacted Dinan asking for help because of issues with my tune in the three years I've had it?
Exactly Zero. It just works. Every time. All day, every day.

2. Again, not knocking them, and I've been told the "soft" burble setting is more like the PPK, but the videos of the burbles in action on the MHD sound like shit. Gunshot-like backfires instead of the sweet gurgling rumble the PPK makes.

3. I too have a later model locked DME, and I don't feel like taking it out right now.

4. My 135 is my long-term daily driver. I am not out drag racing and looking for every HP I can squeak out of it at the possible risk of reducing longevity and reliability. I want more power, yes, but I am willing to give up a few HP for a tried and true, long-term reliable tune.

To each his own, my friend, and like I said, I may do MHD some day when they've got the kinks all worked out, but there is a reason it's called Beta testing.

Does that answer your question?

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing your situation and thought process. Can't argue with the need for reliability.

Regarding the burbles, the only videos out there are seem to be in the aggressive setting. Some people (including myself) enjoy the shits and giggles every now and then, however I'll be keeping them in soft for a more refined PPK like sound.

Would definitely encourage you and others with Late E to look into MHD after a few more months of development and bug squashing.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Toome

Would definitely encourage you and others with Late E to look into MHD after a few more months of development and bug squashing.

Oh I intend to.

[Cavpilot2k]

So, having gone stock to Dinan S2, and then Dinan to PPK, I can now say definitively without reservation that:

1: The PPK creates better pops and burbles. The overrun rumbles are louder and longer- lasting. It's funny though, there are sweet spots for the Dinan that produces sound, especially Engine braking downhill in 1st and 2nd gear that make it easier to get overruns (though when the Dinan does overruns, they are not as loud or distinctive as the PPK). The PPK does a lot more at higher RPMs than the Dinan, which only does its overrun burbles at low rpm. The Dinan also makes no burbles and pops to speak of after 2nd gear.
Verdict: the PPK sounds better by a country mile.

2: the PPK has decent throttle response - probably in par with the Dinan. Both are better than stock. Power delivery is similarly linear, but the Dinan has a HUGE torque spike early on that pushes you back in the seat and the PPK just doesn't.
Verdict: for pure power and pushing you back in the seat, PPK is better than stock, but Dinan wins hands down on raw power delivery.

Looking forward to going back to Dinan and seeing if I am able to retain the PPK sound while gaining the Dinan power push.

Unfortunately I am leaving for a few weeks in Europe in less than a week, so we may have to wait until mid May to find out the results.

You are welcome.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Looking forward to going back to Dinan and seeing if I am able to retain the PPK sound while gaining the Dinan power push.

This will be the big test. Hopefully it'll work for you like it did for me. I don't see why it wouldn't.

[BattleRaT]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

"The PPK creates better pops and burbles. The overrun rumbles are louder and longer- lasting. "

"The PPK does a lot more at higher RPMs than the Dinan, which only does its overrun burbles at low rpm."

"The Dinan also makes no burbles and pops to speak of after 2nd gear.
Verdict: the PPK sounds better by a country mile."

Thanks for posting your initial results man! This is what i'm suspecting. Dinan should have their own coding for the extra gas to generate the overrun burbles and they should be diferent from the "original" ones on the PPK.

Still really want to hear the burbles of a Dinan S2 in a BMW Performance exhaust but i'm confident somebody will publish a video soon jeje.

Really waiting for your final feedback once you install Dinan S2 over PPK.

Thanks!
-Raul

[BattleRaT]

Originally Posted by Toome

Why is no one considering MHD? You can change the tune and burbles anytime you want.

In addition to all what was already mentioned... MHD is not compatible with the lastest 135i ECUs (Mid 2012 to end 2013) and 135is.

[Toome]

Originally Posted by BattleRaT

In addition to all what was already mentioned... MHD is not compatible with the lastest 135i ECUs (Mid 2012 to end 2013) and 135is.

It's not compatible with 335i mid 2012-2013 ECU's either without a benchflash. I did the unlock myself, but for many that isn't possible.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by BattleRaT

In addition to all what was already mentioned... MHD is not compatible with the lastest 135i ECUs (Mid 2012 to end 2013) and 135is.

Caveat: it is not compatible until you unlock via bench flash (in my humble understanding).

[Cavpilot2k]

OKay all, here is the update we've been waiting for, and it flies in the face of conventional "wisdom" that many have stated previously:

The question: Does the Dinan flash tune completely overwrite a previous tune like PPK?
"Conventional Wisdom" says that a flash completely overwrites the previous flash and that there can be no "stacking" effect.

Th Answer: There CAN BE a "stacking" effect for some tunes, and the Dinan Stage 2 flash tune DOES NOT completely overwrite the PPK tune.

The data: I performed a rather expensive and wasteful experiment, but it proved a theory. Many people have gone from PPK to Dinan and found they did NOT lose the pops and burbles, leading them to think that the Dinan flash does not 100% overwrite the PPK.
Proponents of the complete overwrite theory say that's just due to the Dinan tune having its own pops and burbles and that it's not possible for the PPK to have any residual features or effects.

I have long theorized that some tunes, in this case the Dinan Stage 2 flash, only overwrite the files and parameters it needs to in order to gain its desired effects. Imagine it like a map overlay if you're military, or a stencil cut-out. It lays on what it wants to, overwriting SOME parts, but keeps the existing files that it doesn't need to overwrite.

I am the only person here that I know of to have had all permutations of the tune: stock, stock to Dinan, Dinan to PPK, and PPK to Dinan.
When I went stock to Dinan, there were some overrun pops and burbles, so the Dinan clearly offered some degree of it. I often wondered if the PPK was more pronounced though, as many had suggested.
So I went from Dinan to PPK.

Going from Dinan to PPK, I definitely lost some power, so there is very clearly a substantial power difference between the two, but I picked up a SIGNIFICANTLY more pronounced overrun burble. So yes, the PPK's overrun sounds are much greater than Dinan (which is a little more than stock).

Then I just overwrote my PPK flash with the Dinan Stage 2 flash, and WOW!
I have all of the PPK pops and burbles, and maybe even a little more than with just PPK. And I have the Dinan power back.

The most significant finding here is that the PPK to Dinan flash leaves me with far more pops and burbles than I had going stock to Dinan. This definitively proves the theory that the Dinan tune DOES NOT 100% overwrite the PPK as "conventional wisdom" suggests, and leaves some parts of the previous tune (stock or PPK) intact by only overwriting certain files and parameters.

So, if you have PPK, get the Dinan and you'll have the best of both worlds - better sound AND more power.

Done.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Esteban

This will be the big test. Hopefully it'll work for you like it did for me. I don't see why it wouldn't.

Experiment complete - we were right. Check post above.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Dinan flash will overwrite the PPK flash. There is no such thing as stacking flashes.

Incorrect, sir. See 2 posts up.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by Chunner

That is the logical thought but if the PPK combined with the PE originally gave the snaps, crackles and pops and the Dinan software over wrote the PPK. Then why would I still have those snaps, crackles and pops. Pre or post Dinan, I have always had them.

Steve, no worries. Like your BMW dealership stated, you got 3 days to play with it. If you do not like it, or lose your exhaust notes then you can go back.

Have fun and stop fretting!

See my post above. We were right - there IS a stacking effect, at least with these two tunes.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

So, if you have PPK, get the Dinan and you'll have the best of both worlds - better sound AND more power.

This is what I did back in 2016 but wasn't positive the sounds were from Dinan or if I was still getting my wonderful PPK sounds that I've been loving since 2011. Now there can be no doubt. Thanks for your efforts!

[KRAMCLASSIC]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

See my post above. We were right - there IS a stacking effect, at least with these two tunes.

Now I wonder when I install JB4, will I have the same stacking effect with my currently installed Dinan S3? Based on your findings, I'd assume I would have a similar stacking effect but I guess only one way to truly find out...

[SamelCamel]

I'm not sure the logic is correct with flashing back and forth between PPK, Dinan (Stage1), and Dinan Stage2. I think what you may be experiencing are settings for learning and air/fuel mixtures being reset as a part of the flashing.

I have Dinan Stage 2 and I've had it pop, gurgle, and almost backfire so much that it scared me. I've also had it quiet where it is barely noticeable. I believe the loudest I've heard it was after I replaced my charge pipe with an aftermarket pipe. I think what did the "reset" was unplugging multiple sensors and letting it sit overnight.

I can try to duplicate this to see if I can get it to respond the same, but I think your mileage may vary when it comes to the pops and gurgles and the Dinan tunes.

-Sam

[Cavpilot2k]

I respectfully disagree, Sam. I never had the Dinan Stage 1.

I compared Dinan Stage 2 flashed from stock (yes, some pops and burbles, especially when engine braking at low RPM in 1st and 2nd gear) to Dinan Stage 2 flashed from PPK (all the pops and burbles of the PPK and actually maybe a little more - actually not more in volume, but longer-lasting).

Everybody agrees that the PPK makes more of this sound effect (burbles and pops) than Dinan Stage 2 when compared side-by-side, assuming both flashed from stock, which is how basically everyone does it.

What I did was run all the different permutations and confirm that flashing Dinan Stage 2 after having PPK produces far more pops and burbles that when flashing Dinan Stage 2 from stock, which is how I drove my car for almost 3 years, so I am very attuned to what sounds it was capable of. There is a prolonged rumble that the PPK gives on overrun that the Dinan S2 never did. Even my fiancee noticed a huge difference when I went from my long-standing Dinan S2 to the PPK (an admitted step back in power) - she said it sounded like my car was "broken".

I am aware of the "learning" of the throttle, but I reset mine periodically anyway, as it only serves to bog things down over time due to realistically spending the majority of our driving in traffic or at steady highway cruising (not very dynamic driving modes).

Anyway, I'm not sure why ot is so hard for people to believe that some tunes only overwrite the pertinent files rather than overwriting the whole map. It's like updating your computer OS. You just install patches that update the pertinent files - you don't re-image the whole OS.

[SamelCamel]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I respectfully disagree, Sam. I never had the Dinan Stage 1.

I compared Dinan Stage 2 flashed from stock (yes, some pops and burbles, especially when engine braking at low RPM in 1st and 2nd gear) to Dinan Stage 2 flashed from PPK (all the pops and burbles of the PPK and actually maybe a little more - actually not more in volume, but longer-lasting).

Everybody agrees that the PPK makes more of this sound effect (burbles and pops) than Dinan Stage 2 when compared side-by-side, assuming both flashed from stock, which is how basically everyone does it.

What I did was run all the different permutations and confirm that flashing Dinan Stage 2 after having PPK produces far more pops and burbles that when flashing Dinan Stage 2 from stock, which is how I drove my car for almost 3 years, so I am very attuned to what sounds it was capable of. There is a prolonged rumble that the PPK gives on overrun that the Dinan S2 never did. Even my fiancee noticed a huge difference when I went from my long-standing Dinan S2 to the PPK (an admitted step back in power) - she said it sounded like my car was "broken".

I am aware of the "learning" of the throttle, but I reset mine periodically anyway, as it only serves to bog things down over time due to realistically spending the majority of our driving in traffic or at steady highway cruising (not very dynamic driving modes).

Anyway, I'm not sure why ot is so hard for people to believe that some tunes only overwrite the pertinent files rather than overwriting the whole map. It's like updating your computer OS. You just install patches that update the pertinent files - you don't re-image the whole OS.

You may be right. I'm just taking a guess. Dinan is usually a pretty easy to get along with bunch. You can probably call them and they will probably tell you exactly what their tune is touching. I feel like the pops and gurgles were longer and louder with stock (2013 BMW 135is) also, but I've also had some decent ones with the Dinan Stage 2. I will still try to duplicate my test when I get some time and see if I can get it to pop like it did after the charge pipe install.

-Sam