Is there a car company that you can honestly say has NOT lost its way?

[BlkGS]

I was thinking about this the other day. I can't think of a legacy carmaker that hasn't just... Lost the plot with its cars. They're all either pushing down roads that most buyers don't want, either stylistically or dynamically, or they've basically bowed out of what we used to love about them.

BMW has embraced cheapness and cost cutting, and terrible designs with the NK cars set to take it to the next level.

MB already cheaper out their cars and we're/are pushing powertrains people don't want.

Audi basically only has the RS6, a $150k wagon, and the RS3, a $75k compact with no manual transmission.

Dodge... Well they may as well shut down.

Chevy has the Corvette and that's it, so you better want a mid engine automatic.

Caddy is probably the best offering left, offering manuals and good powertrains in their 2 cars, and the the Escalade V, a $150knsuper SUV that gets smoked by anything else similar.

Acura is basically dead. Lexus basically dead. Infiniti dead. Honda has the CTR and Si but nobody talks about the SI so maybe that's cancelled? Arguably Toyota is in the best spot of the JDM brands, with having a cheap sports car (GR86) and a hot hatch (that catches on fire).

For has the Mustang and that's about it.

Mazda has the Miata and that's about it. They have "good driving FWD crossovers without much power" I guess, but nothing that's interesting like all their cars used to be 15-20 years ago.

Maybe it's just me, but it genuinely feels like all the automakers lost their secret sauce in the chase for... Whatever. Better financials per Wall St I guess?

And I don't think it's just nostalgia either, because I can look back at the 90s and 80s and the point still stands. I think it's just... Enshittification of the car industry.

[RM7]

Dodge? They are still making crap.

[Burrcold]

I think BMW, Toyota, and GM are best suited for ongoing/future growth (despite shortcomings from each). Everyone else is on thin ice.

[JeffinOregon]

Lost its way ≠ only builds cars that are interesting to me.

The percentage of buyers for performance oriented coupes and sedans continues to decrease, and their prices to increase. I think we should be amazed and grateful that companies like BMW still exist at all.

[ash_schwin]

I think Porsche / Lamborghini / Bugatti have kept their ways for the most part. I do understand that Porsche has been pushing out more electric cars but they also make some interesting 911 models so maybe it is wash

[vt100]

Mazda! I’m really surprised how good their cars drive.
And of course because they still build Miata!

To some degree Honda and Toyota are still ok’ish, but they’re kinda in and out making some really good cars and also ruining other previously good cars

Porsche is still good only in the GT department. Their regular cars are becoming increasingly boring

[vt100]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Maybe it's just me, but it genuinely feels like all the automakers lost their secret sauce in the chase for... Whatever. Better financials per Wall St I guess?

Maybe most of them never had a secret sauce at first place? They were just making some good sport cars out of sudden and that’s it (like Honda or Toyota did a few times).

Not all cars from 90s were good cars

PS: I’d say it’s like with music - most groups make just a couple of really good hits and the rest is just impossible to listen. Only very few exceptions exist.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

I think BMW, Toyota, and GM are best suited for ongoing/future growth (despite shortcomings from each). Everyone else is on thin ice.

BMW I think is set for a period of massive flops. Everything they introduced lately has been worse than the previous model. GM is iffy, they still have the platforms and powertrains, and styling wise they're ok, but they don't have any real products on the way that sound good aside from crazy high end Corvettes.

Toyota I think is probably in the best position. They're well positioned to put out some enticing options that might hit the market right as affordable yet fun.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ash_schwin

I think Porsche / Lamborghini / Bugatti have kept their ways for the most part. I do understand that Porsche has been pushing out more electric cars but they also make some interesting 911 models so maybe it is wash

I mean, Bugatti doesn't count because they build cars for billionaires.

Lambo, eh, I could see. They lost some of their mojo with big rev happy V12s and V10s, but frankly I think the average Lambo buyer just wants a bull badge, a loud ass exhaust, and an obnoxious paint color. It's a "look at me!" thing, not really about the car itself.

Porsche... I have complicated feelings on this one. 911 top trims are great, sure, but increasingly out of reach for mere mortals. GT cars are not for people on the Epstein list basically. The more basic cars are now way more expensive compared to rivals and arguably a little too soft and luxury focused. That said, I can see the argument that they still build a car that does what it always has been supposed to do, it's a comfortable car one could daily drove yet still experience a sporty and well engineered vehicle. Cayenne and Macan still exist to tell people you drove a Porsche and leave it at that, Boxster and Cayman offer a way for people to spend a lot of money on an entry level Porsche, and Panamera is maybe still in production for the like 5 people who want a Porsche but must have a sedan?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to see Porsche team up with someone to build a new 944. Maybe Toyota, and have the Toyota version be a Supra or Celica, and the Porsche version be a 944. It would slot below Boxster and start in the like $40k range, with like 300hp. I know it won't happen but it would be awesome if it did.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by vt100

Maybe most of them never had a secret sauce at first place? They were just making some good sport cars out of sudden and that’s it (like Honda or Toyota did a few times).

Not all cars from 90s were good cars

PS: I’d say it’s like with music - most groups make just a couple of really good hits and the rest is just impossible to listen. Only very few exceptions exist.

BMW had a pretty great run with M3s and M5s from the 90s to the early 2010s. You could not pick stuff, especially with the mid 90s cars, but all BMWs in that time period fit their ethos. They were driver's cars, built to drive, built well, and designed to be easy to operate while driving. They were not flashy for the sake of it, they were "effective chic" for lack of a better term. Even something as despised as early iDrive had a point, you could use one hand to open the knob and look at a screen that was still putting the road in your field of view to quickly adjust settings.

Honda pretty much killed it in the late 90s to late 00s too. Literally people were complaining about the shifters being too phallic. That was the biggest complaint in those cars. Nissan made banger after banger after banger in the 2000s, arguably having the biggest explosion of growth and then failure in modern history. When the G35 came out it was EVERYWHERE because it was everything a BMW 3 series was, maybe a little better in some ways, and cheaper. Then they followed it up with the FX35 which was another absolute masterpiece and sales champ, they were EVERYWHERE because they drove great, were nice inside, sounded great, and looked amazing. Then after the G37 they basically screwed it all up.

Mazda had a great run in the 00s too. Mazdaspeed protege, Miata, 3, 6, rx8, cx7 (was great to drive but terrible to own reliability wise), and frankly their more basic versions of those cars were pretty damn good too. Like a Mazda3 with the 2.3L motor was a great sporty little car, buddy from work had a hatchback one and it was great, it literally didn't everything well, wasn't insanely expensive, and was rock solid reliable.

[hufington]

Ferrari?

[MJBO]

Originally Posted by hufington

Ferrari?

I don't think anyone buying Ferrari's said "I want a V6 please".

I think Aston Martin are still doing pretty well. The cars look amazing, sound amazing, drive amazing, and still feature powerful V8s and V12s.

[dgoldenz]

Rolls Royce. Love what Aston is doing but the depreciation is still brutal. I wouldn’t say Porsche has lost its way so much as they realized they could take all that ADM money for themselves. Wish they’d do more NA 911s though.

[MJBO]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Love what Aston is doing but the depreciation is still brutal.

Can't disagree with that, though that did work to my advantage with my recent 2014 Vanquish purchase with only 8000km on it 😆

[Efthreeoh]

I'd say Ford has not lost its way. You mentioned the Mustang but left out the Bronco. I'd say Ford has going retrograde back to some of its staples. The F150 is steadfast in its offerings; it still offers a 2-door cab with a V8. The Explorer has been a staple of its offerings for 35 years now, as a replacement for the Bronco II. Same for the Expedition - 26 years on-going production as a replacement for the 2nd-gen Bronco. Yup, Ford has abandoned all its sedans, but that was a market adjustment because the SUV and especially the Crossover SUV has now become the industry model standard fired in most part because of the successes of Explorer and Escape.

The advent of the EV and institution of unachievable ICEV emissions and fuel consumption regulations have simply effed up the entire industry, where no manufacturer can sustain its legacy offerings. They are forced to go out-of-the-box. Now, BMW, well they just went bat shit crazy.

My opinion of course.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

BMW had a pretty great run with M3s and M5s from the 90s to the early 2010s. You could not pick stuff, especially with the mid 90s cars, but all BMWs in that time period fit their ethos. They were driver's cars, built to drive, built well, and designed to be easy to operate while driving. They were not flashy for the sake of it, they were "effective chic" for lack of a better term. Even something as despised as early iDrive had a point, you could use one hand to open the knob and look at a screen that was still putting the road in your field of view to quickly adjust settings.

Honda pretty much killed it in the late 90s to late 00s too. Literally people were complaining about the shifters being too phallic. That was the biggest complaint in those cars. Nissan made banger after banger after banger in the 2000s, arguably having the biggest explosion of growth and then failure in modern history. When the G35 came out it was EVERYWHERE because it was everything a BMW 3 series was, maybe a little better in some ways, and cheaper. Then they followed it up with the FX35 which was another absolute masterpiece and sales champ, they were EVERYWHERE because they drove great, were nice inside, sounded great, and looked amazing. Then after the G37 they basically screwed it all up.

Mazda had a great run in the 00s too. Mazdaspeed protege, Miata, 3, 6, rx8, cx7 (was great to drive but terrible to own reliability wise), and frankly their more basic versions of those cars were pretty damn good too. Like a Mazda3 with the 2.3L motor was a great sporty little car, buddy from work had a hatchback one and it was great, it literally didn't everything well, wasn't insanely expensive, and was rock solid reliable.

The CX-5 is still a great offering, and what about the CX7/CX-9 platform, a turbo in-line 6 with a gear-set transmission just recently offered to the market in this day and age of the 2.0L 4-banger turbo and CTV transmission?

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd say Ford has not lost its way. You mentioned the Mustang but left out the Bronco. I'd say Ford has going retrograde back to some of its staples. The F150 is steadfast in its offerings; it still offers a 2-door cab with a V8. The Explorer has been a staple of its offerings for 35 years now, as a replacement for the Bronco II. Same for the Expedition - 26 years on-going production as a replacement for the 2nd-gen Bronco. Yup, Ford has abandoned all its sedans, but that was a market adjustment because the SUV and especially the Crossover SUV has now become the industry model standard fired in most part because of the successes of Explorer and Escape.

The advent of the EV and institution of unachievable ICEV emissions and fuel consumption regulations have simply effed up the entire industry, where no manufacturer can sustain its legacy offerings. They are forced to go out-of-the-box. Now, BMW, well they just went bat shit crazy.

My opinion of course.

Have you looked into ford recalls lately? Worst then any manufacturer right now.

[BroDoze]

Subaru has definitely lost their way.

I’ve always had one of some type in the garage. I don’t anymore.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by JeffinOregon

Lost its way ≠ only builds cars that are interesting to me.

Indeed.
"Lost its way" designation on this forum means little, if overall sales and margins are holding steady or increasing. For many OEMs "lost its way" on auto forums == increased growth and success.

Originally Posted by JeffinOregon

The percentage of buyers for performance oriented coupes and sedans continues to decrease, and their prices to increase.

That's the sad thruth.
The cars I, and many of others on this forum, would like to buy are no longer in vogue with the masses. OEMs build cars to stays in business, thus they have to cater to the masses. And if what they are building is being bought and is increasing the sales, than they are doing the "right thing" for the business.

Who isn't doing the "right thing", you might ask?
See below (rough in order of sales decline in 2024): Dodge, MINI, Alfa, Jeep, Caddy, Acura, Bentley, etc.
Basically, most brands in the houses of FCA and VW.
You can probably add Tesla to the list of loosers.



https://www.carpro.com/blog/full-yea...eport-for-2024

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[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The CX-5 is still a great offering, and what about the CX7/CX-9 platform, a turbo in-line 6 with a gear-set transmission just recently offered to the market in this day and age of the 2.0L 4-banger turbo and CTV transmission?

CX7/9 are slow. I don't care about it being an I6T when it's slower than the competition.

Bronco is lame. I don't need a off-road or fake off-road SUV. Ford does at least have the Explorer ST. It's a great offering. I just wish it was more wild.

[Alfisti]

Toyota have absolutely nailed it. Like myself, they knew BEV was not ready and went hard at hybrids, they make solid, reliable and efficient vehicles for the masses, the RAV4 is a compelling vehicle.

They also cater to the off road/will never go offroad but still like dreaming about it crowd with 4Runner and Landcruiser.

Then they offer a legit sports car in the Supra, an affordable playful one in the FRS and will add a mid tier one soon.

They've predicted the market needs beautifully.

[G MONEY]

After the mid 90’s/early 2000’s everything has gone down hill. Speaking for Nissan/Mazda/Honda/Toyot sports cars