Is there a car company that you can honestly say has NOT lost its way?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Even if we assume you're right, there are plenty of people who've walked into and out of a dealership without ever really considering how fast the car was – much less geeky 0-60 times – because they're all pretty much "fast enough" for the vast majority of drivers. The truth of the matter is that how fast a modern car is only matters to a small percentage of the population; it just so happens that forums like this are full of them, so you get confirmation bias that everyone must care about it. They don't.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that 90%+ of the driving population has absolutely no idea how much hp their vehicle has, much less its 0-60 time. So long as it's fast enough to merge into traffic on the highway, they just don't care.

This.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

You know things in the automotive world are going to sh!t when Ferrari reveals this monstrocity

Predator mouth front end.
Audi wheels.
Defender side snorkels.

What's not to like...

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Predator mouth front end.
Audi wheels.
Defender side snorkels.

What's not to like...

I was so distracted by the ugly exterior, I didn't even notice it had blue interior.

[N1rve]

Originally Posted by jaffles

Reckon the Toyota tax is worth paying. I would have bought a 2010ish Lexus 2 door but could not afford it, so bought an E92. This is second hand.

The wife has a 2015 PriusC hybrid for the run around. In 10 years ownership we have spent $3000 in 250,000km. $30 and it goes 700km.

I bought the neighbors 2004 2.4 auto Camry as a first car for my daughter. $800 plus $1200 of fluids, filters, new control arms, and shocks all round.

It has lived outside its whole life but paint is good after a polish. Cars runs faultlessly with no rattles, squeaks, rust, or smoke. 180,000km

Toyota are boring as, but value for money in a league of their own.

You lucked out on that 2004 2.4 Camry because that same engine starting in 2006 was known to burn oil.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...11356-9999.pdf

[jaffles]

Originally Posted by N1rve

You lucked out on that 2004 2.4 Camry because that same engine starting in 2006 was known to burn oil.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...11356-9999.pdf

ahh yeh it does burn a little now you mention it, about 500ml in 10,000km I think. Perhaps if it were not 5-30 full syn it might do better. Not what you'd call a deal breaker for a girls first car in my book. Truth be known its probably on a one way trip to the tip.

[dizz81]

Originally Posted by afadeev

You are joking, right?
I've never met, heard of, or can imagine a car buyer walking out of a dealership without sale because the car on offer was "too fast for me".
No such thing.
Happened.
Ever.

0-60 above 7 seconds?
We would have to go back into 1980s with E30s.
Hack, a Honda Odyssey does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds these days!


a

Not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic or not...

I can tell you, from a person who used to spend 4+ hours a day driving in California, the majority of people are NOT doing 0-60 runs from stop light to stop light. The majority of people who ARE doing 0-60 runs from light to light are the ones in shitbox modified cars trying to prove themselves to nobody.

The same holds true for where I'm at nowadays. Same shitbox modified cars doing hard accelerations from lights. But the average person is barely creeping along.

Like others have said, I'm sure a majority of people barely understand how much power their cars have, let alone give a care about it. They want something to get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by dizz81

Not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic or not...

I can tell you, from a person who used to spend 4+ hours a day driving in California, the majority of people are NOT doing 0-60 runs from stop light to stop light. The majority of people who ARE doing 0-60 runs from light to light are the ones in shitbox modified cars trying to prove themselves to nobody.

The same holds true for where I'm at nowadays. Same shitbox modified cars doing hard accelerations from lights. But the average person is barely creeping along.

Like others have said, I'm sure a majority of people barely understand how much power their cars have, let alone give a care about it. They want something to get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down.

Exactly. There's a reason Toyota sells every Camry (0-60 6.8s, 232hp) and RAV-4 (0-60 8.3s, 203hp) it can make. Fast? No. Reliable? Yep.

I don't want them, but there are tons of people who do.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by dizz81

Not entirely sure if you're being sarcastic or not...
I can tell you, from a person who used to spend 4+ hours a day driving in California, the majority of people are NOT doing 0-60 runs from stop light to stop light.

Not least bit sarcastic, nor am I implying that any measurable part of the population is doing 0-60 runs or more than 10% of any given car's capabilities.

I am commenting on increased performance ceiling of new cars compared to what they used to be 10-20-30-40 years ago. An average person can now buy <4-second 0-60 capable cars now for <$65K - a performance that was unimaginable for super-cars of yesteryear. And folks are buying them by the bushel-load, including from BMW.

Not because higher performance cars are necessary for redlight runs, but because even a fraction of that performance is FUN. And a meaningful portion of the US car buying public appreciates fun behind the wheel!

Originally Posted by dizz81

The majority of people who ARE doing 0-60 runs from light to light are the ones in shitbox modified cars trying to prove themselves to nobody.

Isn't that the definition of a car enthusiast?
As well as a car forum enthusiast?

Originally Posted by dizz81

Like others have said, I'm sure a majority of people barely understand how much power their cars have, let alone give a care about it. They want something to get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down.

We are speculating here a bit (or a lot?).
If anyone has links to research data on modern car buying public's preferences and phycology, please do share.

TIA,
a

P.S.: I have nothing against cars that "get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down." I just to do all of the above with a smile on my face!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

I can definitively say if I can't have a manual I'd rather have a ZF6/8. I don't understand the appeal of the DCT/PDK.

I did not drive my brother's GTI on Sunday, so I've not yet driven a DCT. I have driven several iterations of the ZF6/8 auto both in the F30 BMW and Caddy ATS and was not that impressed. But I think all automatic transmissions suck, so I'm highly biased.

Riding in the GTI though, I did pay attention to the shifts, and when my brother got into the throttle the DCT shifted quite precisely and was crisp, like a good manual transmission operator can shift. He has not yet used/learned the paddles but is slowly introducing himself to that mode of operation. I think for him, the DCT shift quality is close enough to a 3-pedal manual that he recovers some of the shift precision he has been used to all his life.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

We are speculating here a bit (or a lot?).
If anyone has links to research data on modern car buying public's preferences and phycology, please do share.

TIA,
a

P.S.: I have nothing against cars that "get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down." I just to do all of the above with a smile on my face!

Most psychology nerds who could perform such a study are not car people, so they wouldn't give a shit to do such a study in the first place nor even know what to ask or set up to collect the correct data. LOL

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

You know things in the automotive world are going to sh!t when Ferrari reveals this monstrosity

I actually like the design. Blends some Ferrari Daytona with some OG Testarossa, a touch of C2 Corvette, and a tad of Ford GT40.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Not least bit sarcastic, nor am I implying that any measurable part of the population is doing 0-60 runs or more than 10% of any given car's capabilities.

I am commenting on increased performance ceiling of new cars compared to what they used to be 10-20-30-40 years ago. An average person can now buy <4-second 0-60 capable cars now for <$65K - a performance that was unimaginable for super-cars of yesteryear. And folks are buying them by the bushel-load, including from BMW.

Not because higher performance cars are necessary for redlight runs, but because even a fraction of that performance is FUN. And a meaningful portion of the US car buying public appreciates fun behind the wheel!



Isn't that the definition of a car enthusiast?
As well as a car forum enthusiast?




We are speculating here a bit (or a lot?).
If anyone has links to research data on modern car buying public's preferences and phycology, please do share.

TIA,
a

P.S.: I have nothing against cars that "get them from point A to B, get good gas mileage, and not break down." I just to do all of the above with a smile on my face!

I don't think you'll find anyone here that disagrees with the "more hp = more fun" argument. God knows I don't. However, what I will contend is that the ever-growing hp doesn't equate to average consumers actually caring. I'm just not sure it follows that people are buying cars due to high-hp when there's not all that many low-hp options if one wants something high-end.

Like I pointed to above, both the Toyota Camry and RAV-4 are perennial best-sellers, yet they don't have much power by modern-day standards. If so many buyers are super-concerned with hp, why does Toyota sell so many of them? I'm not saying no one is buying on power and 0-60 times – this forum and others like it is proof of that – but I don't think that's the primary concern for most. Unfortunately, I doubt that we're going to see a peer-reviewed study any time soon.

[spazzyfry123]

What is the car company way? I'm confused on the thread as we're saying that car companies have lost their way (in a wholistic way I assume), but then ramble on that it really just isn't something that we are interested in. Yet, we see car companies selling more than they ever have with impressive year-over-year growth.

I suppose that if the car companies have lost their way, that was mainly to build it the consumer's way. They must be doing something right? Just because someone doesn't like trucks, doesn't mean that Ford isn't selling a new F-150 every 49 seconds.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I did not drive my brother's GTI on Sunday, so I've not yet driven a DCT. I have driven several iterations of the ZF6/8 auto both in the F30 BMW and Caddy ATS and was not that impressed. But I think all automatic transmissions suck, so I'm highly biased.

Riding in the GTI though, I did pay attention to the shifts, and when my brother got into the throttle the DCT shifted quite precisely and was crisp, like a good manual transmission operator can shift. He has not yet used/learned the paddles but is slowly introducing himself to that mode of operation. I think for him, the DCT shift quality is close enough to a 3-pedal manual that he recovers some of the shift precision he has been used to all his life.

It's all a lie. Had a PDK 911 and it was just a fancy auto that kicked harder. Thought I would like it since they're so fast but novelty wore off after a couple weeks.

It seems more marques are offering manuals again so I can only hope there will be an interesting car again eventually.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

It's all a lie. Had a PDK 911 and it was just a fancy auto that kicked harder. Thought I would like it since they're so fast but novelty wore off after a couple weeks.

It seems more marques are offering manuals again so I can only hope there will be an interesting car again eventually.

I'll take another view. There's this assumption people with autos just drive in D, I have a 1st gen PDK and I am always in M. yes it is still changing the gears for me but it is way, way, way faster and better change than regular autos of that generation. When i flick the paddle the car does as i ask damn near instantly whereas regular autos of the same vintage take an age to shift up or down even if manually selected.

I was really hustling my car the other day, constantly shifting between 2nd and 3rd and back and the changes were so fast and clean. Maybe things have changed in 2025, I dunno but the PDK is a joy to use as M mode auto. No it's not as engaging as 3 pedals but that's not what we are discussing.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

What is the car company way? I'm confused on the thread as we're saying that car companies have lost their way (in a wholistic way I assume), but then ramble on that it really just isn't something that we are interested in. Yet, we see car companies selling more than they ever have with impressive year-over-year growth.

I suppose that if the car companies have lost their way, that was mainly to build it the consumer's way. They must be doing something right? Just because someone doesn't like trucks, doesn't mean that Ford isn't selling a new F-150 every 49 seconds.

Yep. Car companies sell what consumers want. I don't like the SUV / land-yacht trend in the least, but people undeniably love them. For better or (IMO) worse.

As the kids (used to) say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

You know things in the automotive world are going to sh!t when Ferrari reveals this monstrocity

The worst part is they're calling it a Testarossa. That's sacrilege.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I'll take another view. There's this assumption people with autos just drive in D, I have a 1st gen PDK and I am always in M. yes it is still changing the gears for me but it is way, way, way faster and better change than regular autos of that generation. When i flick the paddle the car does as i ask damn near instantly whereas regular autos of the same vintage take an age to shift up or down even if manually selected.

I was really hustling my car the other day, constantly shifting between 2nd and 3rd and back and the changes were so fast and clean. Maybe things have changed in 2025, I dunno but the PDK is a joy to use as M mode auto. No it's not as engaging as 3 pedals but that's not what we are discussing.

My dad had one of these i drove a lot (a 997.2 S - great car but scary costs). It was kind of a worst of all worlds transmission. It sucked as an automatic, jerky shifts at low speed, hung onto revs weirdly long, wasn't very pleasant day today vs say, a GM 6L80. As a manual it was unsatisfying, but fast shifting. It gave video game feels to me. Where it shined was on a track, I'm SIGNIFICANTLY faster around a track with paddles of any sort than a stick shift, not because I suck with a stick or the shifts are faster, but because it's flat out easier to do.

I still wouldn't buy a car with a DSG over one with a stick, unless it was exclusively a track car.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

My dad had one of these i drove a lot (a 997.2 S - great car but scary costs). It was kind of a worst of all worlds transmission. It sucked as an automatic, jerky shifts at low speed, hung onto revs weirdly long, wasn't very pleasant day today vs say, a GM 6L80. As a manual it was unsatisfying, but fast shifting. It gave video game feels to me. Where it shined was on a track, I'm SIGNIFICANTLY faster around a track with paddles of any sort than a stick shift, not because I suck with a stick or the shifts are faster, but because it's flat out easier to do.

I still wouldn't buy a car with a DSG over one with a stick, unless it was exclusively a track car.

Jerky? In Sport mode maybe but puttering around in regular D is pretty seamless. Sport is kind of compulsory though as it REALLY livens up the gas pedal. My routine is flip the controller to M, press SPORT (not Sport+, that is not needed) then turn OFF the firmer ride that is default in SPORT. The 997 is a great car but TBH it is not really for tootling around town as the ride is too firm, after market solutions have solved the issue to some degree but a 991 is far more civilised. The 997 is far happier on smooth roads and being driven hard but ride quality is a sore point, especially alone, loaded up with 2 adults and two kids the extra weight calms things down a bit.

The stick vs DSG/PDK thing was not really the discussion, it was DSG/PDK vs traditional AUTO. I'd have preferred a stick but in 3 years could not find an aqua blue cab in stick and STILL have not seen one 3 years later with less than 100K miles.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

It's all a lie. Had a PDK 911 and it was just a fancy auto that kicked harder. Thought I would like it since they're so fast but novelty wore off after a couple weeks.

It seems more marques are offering manuals again so I can only hope there will be an interesting car again eventually.

My brother recently retired and had the cash to buy a new "last" car. It is replacing his 190,000-mile Crossfire MT. He decided at his age and dealing with DC suburban traffic for his entire driving life, the GTI DSG he considered is "good enough" and he still has two other vehicles that have manual transmissions. He likes a sub-170 inch length car under 3,300 pounds. The GTI fits the bill. He didn’t want any of the hot hatches from Asia. The GTI definitely feels German from my butt-O-meter.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

My dad had one of these i drove a lot (a 997.2 S - great car but scary costs). It was kind of a worst of all worlds transmission. It sucked as an automatic, jerky shifts at low speed, hung onto revs weirdly long, wasn't very pleasant day today vs say, a GM 6L80. As a manual it was unsatisfying, but fast shifting. It gave video game feels to me. Where it shined was on a track, I'm SIGNIFICANTLY faster around a track with paddles of any sort than a stick shift, not because I suck with a stick or the shifts are faster, but because it's flat out easier to do.

I still wouldn't buy a car with a DSG over one with a stick, unless it was exclusively a track car.

If I ever go auto, it will be an EV (hate to say it). I really had my doubts about the EcoBoost Bronco manual, but now into year 3 with it, its very satisfying to drive. The 2.3L EcoBoost is a fun motor with the manual even in the Bronco. Once you learn the boost curve, it gets fun, and the best is setting up for a pass. All in a 4x4 brick.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If I ever go auto, it will be an EV (hate to say it). I really had my doubts about the EcoBoost Bronco manual, but now into year 3 with it, its very satisfying to drive. The 2.3L EcoBoost is a fun motor with the manual even in the Bronco. Once you learn the boost curve, it gets fun, and the best is setting up for a pass. All in a 4x4 brick.

Ford has some sweet offerings.

Regular cab 5.0 V8 F-150 that you can slap a Whipple on for 700+ HP with a factory warranty? Check
Ranger Raptor with all kinds of goodies and ridiculous power and an aftermarket base that's difficult to counter? Check
Folks in the 10s in the 1/4 in their Soccer Mom Explorer? Check
We haven't even gotten to their "actual" performance lineup. Move over Dodge with just slapping a Hellcat into everything (as cool as it is), there's some serious variety coming out of Ford and it's yours for the taking.

I was skeptical of a 4 cylinder in the Bronco, but color me impressed. Pretty rad powertrain for what it is. Great that you can get it with a third pedal no less. It just screams fun.