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| 04-30-2011, 06:57 PM | #45 |
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Basically, it's a temp management issue. Heavy car, lots of power, insufficient rotor thermal mass. I cracked the piston pucks, melted the dust boots, and turned the calipers browns. :-/
Ducts would be great but trying to engineer a reliable solution for a daily driven car while maintaining the amount of tire and camber I have in this little tiny car is um...challenging. To be honest, I haven't put in the effort because I'm not sure it can be done. I'd gladly piggyback your success if 697 figure it out though Dave.  There's a stick on the cracked piston puck issue in the brake forum that you should read. Lots of misinformation in the initial pages, but the later info is good. |
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| 04-30-2011, 07:16 PM | #47 | |
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Seen the sticky.. am all over it. Personally i think i am at an advantage over the 135 guys because im lighter, and i dont carry as much straightaway speed into the corners with the "same brakes". i am usually 20 mph slower. None the less, i am of the thought that any ducting is better than none.. I did some base line temp readings last night just for the fun of it. 4 runs 0-100-20 and then 1 to 0-100-0. ( i warmed the brakes up first for a few miles . I got rotor temps of 340 to 360... caliper (outside, wheel side) 110 to 130.. it was dark, i wanted to get the lazer on the pad, i just couldnt see it clearly..next time ill take a flashlight.. the biggest thing i saw was after checking the drivers side , then running to the passenger side, then running back to the drivers side, the temp increased on the rotor got to over 400 in just 30 to 40 seconds... goes to show you how important cool down laps really are. I used my inferred thermometer at a distance of 6 inches. Gonna test fit my first prototype tomorrow.. ill take pics..
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| 04-30-2011, 07:43 PM | #48 |
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that's funny, bought a IR thermometer today. was thinking about buying the AP thermal paint and strips for $200 but then I found IR's for $50. granted not as accurate as the paints but still pretty good deal. although you won't be able to measure heat until you get back to the pit but I was wondering what percentage of heat do you lose by the time you get to the pit?
I created a data sheet to collect heat measurements for tire and brakes after each session. my cool carbon pads MOT are good for 1200 deg which is not bad but we really need something over 1400 to be safe from fading. I think with this dust shield modification we should be able to keep everything under 1200.
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| 04-30-2011, 08:24 PM | #49 |
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cool sheet.. I had one last year when i first went TT ing. used it to record tire temps and pic the best pressures for my tires.. I figured the more info the better.
it was a little bit of a pain to pit and then run around the car with my helmet on writting down temps LOL.. i guess i wanted the best info but i am sure i looked like an idiot. i have no idea on the % loss of temp while pitting.. also remember your cool down lap.. my cool down laps never see any braking.. i just coast very quickly thru the corners as not to slow down the session any. most tracks wont allow you to get out of car on pit lane as the lane is "hot" i guess we will just have to estimate??? BTW i did my little test above on a deserted hwy by the beach near my house.. it wasnt at a track..
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| 04-30-2011, 09:10 PM | #50 |
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LOL, no worries about looking like an idiot. I am a data junkie myself. btw, I am planning on switching to Ferodo DS2500 pads next time around. they have slightly less MOT than CC but they are a race compound and from what I have read they get pretty stellar reviews for dual duty pads. if I can't keep the heat under control I would either have to modify my breaking technique or upgrade to dedicated track pads. trying to avoid the hassle of swapping pads/rotors for each event but if push comes to shove then I guess I have to bite the bullet. planning on modding the dust shield tomorrow weather allowing. will be cutting the dust shield along the control arm so I can get a nice bend for air.
wish I had a deserted road for testing/bedding my brakes. always tricky to find a deserted road where I live.
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| 04-30-2011, 09:28 PM | #51 | |
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 . I have it down to 20 min per side front and 15 per side rear. That includes jacking up the car taking off wheel swapping pads and then doing it backwards. I've heard a lot of good stuff about ferrodo pads as well, but I had never tried them myself. I am on the 2nd set of EBC Yellowstuff with good results, and they are rated for up 1,500*. I did boil the ATE fluid though. I've switched to Motul 600 and TI plates and I no longer have that issue. I've done 3 complete flushes and some bleeding in between and I still have some blue residue in the lines left  Anyway let me know what you guys come up with in terms ducting as this was my project to work on this year, but I am having really hard time finding free time as I have a 10 month old that consumes most of it. |
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| 04-30-2011, 09:46 PM | #52 |
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Lubo, thats pretty fast! did you include the bleeding too? would have to get to the track an hour earlier to do all this. btw, are you using the different pads on the same rotor? heard if they are of different compound may be an issue. anyway my next track day is in two weeks. getting prepped up for it. hopefully will get some extra cooling to the brakes
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| 05-01-2011, 08:52 AM | #53 | |
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 . I've also decided to hit up Mt. Tremblant in August for 2 day event, that should be fun as well. I'll do a complete flush a week before my event just like I do every year before 1st event and then some bleeding post events and in between if necessary. |
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| 05-01-2011, 10:48 AM | #54 |
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waiting sucks! I know the feeling. been waiting to use my new track wheels and tires. last time it rained. better not rain next time! lately it feels like I am living in seattle. wtf?
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| 05-01-2011, 07:33 PM | #55 |
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GOOD NEWS!!!
i spent friday night playing and this afternoon actually installing one of my prototype. as of right now the products name is "COOL BRAKE PLATE" a product of PiTBULL Racing LLC... patent pending. no phots or data may be used and or copied or repoduced without the expressed written consent of myself. the scope of the product is to aid in the cooling of the front brakes of BMW 1 series vehicles under normal driving and HPDE / TIME TRIAL / Similar Limited Race conditions. Full race / Enduro applications would require dedicate brake ducting and PiTBULL Racing does not intend this product for that application. This includes US spec 128 and 135 ,and other world variants. other applications may follow. all photographs are of a 2011 128 up fitted with the BMW Performance brake kit. In so much as the upgrade is identical to a 135, and the backing plate used is from a 135, fittment should not be an issue. wheel used in this fitment are OEM style 206 wheels in a 17 x 7 size with OEM offset. as most 135 have 18" wheels , the fittment should not be an issue. ************************************************** **** After installing my first prototype (ive made 3 to this point) just too see clearence issues, i discoverd the root cause of all of our excessive heating concerns.. Basically, the OEM backing plate is positioned almost 1" INSIDE the wheel. as can be seen in the attached photo. the "groove in the wheel is basically equal to the edge of the backing plate in its standard location . the only cool air getting to the rotor is though a small 1/2 inch slot no longer than 2 inches near the hub. This positioning of the plate allows amost no ram air to the rotor face or center hub. In actuallaty, cooling the rotor face does not do alot, but cooling the center hub and letting air traveling through the vented rotor from center to outside edge is how affective cooling is accomplished. in the photo, the OEM backing plate is still intact. the sheet metal piece you see sticking out from the center is my first prototype used for clearence concerns under full lock. As stated earlier, look at the groove in the rim, and the edge of the OEM plate. The COOL BRAKE DUCT is designed to work with the original backing plate, modified to a degree to allow for additional ram air to be directed directly at the rotors hub, hence cooling the rotor and surronding area, including the caliper and pads. more data to follow..
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| 05-01-2011, 08:34 PM | #56 |
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LOL, dude you lawyered up on us! now I understand why you didn't respond to my request for the blueprint. ok so it is really hard to see from this picture. try taking off the wheel for the next pic. looks good though but hard to see what you have done. unless the pic is not by accident
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| 05-01-2011, 08:39 PM | #57 |
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btw, I suggest when you are ready to take heat measurements, try installing your cool brake ducts on one side only and then try taking measurements for heat difference between the two sides. this would be the only way to really see if this is having any impact at all. I am sure you probably thought of this already
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| 05-01-2011, 08:59 PM | #58 |
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i can't really see anything in the pic except looks like the dust sheild os bent away from wheel.
i have a couple of ideas but haven't done anything yet.
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| 05-02-2011, 08:16 AM | #59 | |
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My almost final version is a true "scoop" sticking out proud of the inner wheel edge and into the flow of air..
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| 05-02-2011, 08:21 AM | #60 | |
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 I need to get the car with a final version on my alignment machine. That way i can see full travel with the wheel on, while on the ground.. I can even bounce car around to try to simulate compression. I dont want the duct hitting anything obviously.
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| 05-02-2011, 09:20 AM | #61 |
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I wouldn't recommend experimenting with this on the track under prolonged periods. if there are actual heat differences between the two sides it may alter your pad friction characteristics from one side to the next and inadvertently cause some sort of pulling. I would just try what you had done before. you should be able to see temp differences if it's actually working
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| 05-02-2011, 10:36 AM | #62 | |
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off to the deserted hwy i guess... statistics would allow the differential to be relative.. 30 deg lower temps during my tests ( not actual number just talking out loud) would be a relative precentage less on the track.. we do have heat mass / soak, and absorption to deal with, but like i said before before , anything would be an improvement. BTW what do you think would be a good number to get ?? lets say the cool brake plates obtain a cooling effect of ???? what would be "worth it" 50deg less... 100 degrees less... ??? also considering that most of us run brake fluid good to 600 ish.... and i already saw rotor temp at the 360 deg mark on the street what would be good ??? just throwing out thoughts.. Thanks
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| 05-02-2011, 11:15 AM | #63 |
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where your numbers fahrenheit or celsius? I hope fahrenheit! I think if you can achieve at least a 50-100 degree fahrenheit reduction would be great and anything more would be awesome.
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| 05-02-2011, 11:22 AM | #64 |
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I would say that any decrease in temps would be a good thing, regardless of how much or little. I would venture to say that ambient air temps and conditions would have an effect on actual cooling. Where one day and set of conditions you see 100 degrees cooler, on another day you may only see 25.
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| 05-02-2011, 11:59 AM | #65 | |
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cool thanks for the info...
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| 05-02-2011, 12:06 PM | #66 | |
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Ambient temp, temp of rotor / caliper / pad etc etc ... unlike engine temp due to high ambient temp,( because the radiator is dependent upon the cooler air to cool the coolant as it flows thru the radiatorin heat exchange mode ) do you really think that a rotor or caliper or pad temp will be higher after a track session when its 80 deg with 90% humidity, as opposed to 68deg with 50% humidity.... I cant see it ????? being that we are expecting temps in the 400's( at least rotor temps) ... that little difference to begin with doesnt seem to me as though it will make much of a difference??? just my thoughts.. please add on and clarify ...
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