[cobradac]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

The more power (low end torque to be precise) an engine has, the less of a difference the manual trans makes. The main reason is that it's much easier to launch an automatic than it is a manual - something that's really important when a car has enough power to really roast the tires if handled carelessly.

Note that the manual trans will still be slightly faster and more efficient at highway speeds - but I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find any difference whatsoever below 80 mph. Modern automatics are truly a thing of wonder - my SL500, for example, with the 7G-Tronic gearbox, will run with a manual 5.7 GTO (350 hp) into the triple digits despite a significant power and weight disadvantage.

That said - I'll still take the three pedal. Though I'll have to work a lot harder to pull everything out of it, and I won't have much to show for it, there's something satisfying about rowing your own gears, or nailing the perfect downshift. And it gives you a lot more to do, whether you're on the track or cruising through the city. Plus it's cheaper and I won't have to worry about it failing on me after five years of regular use.

Speaking of the power band; it probably is widely known, but in the 3, 5 and 6er series where both manual and autos are offered, the auto has a lower (higher numerically) rear end ratio. As noted, this helps get power to the ground better, sooner at low end. At the other end the STEP has two OD ratios which help in the fuel mileage area

[victri]

One day soon, we'll be sitting talking to our kids and they'll be going, "clutch?? you mean you actually had a pedal to step on those things?"

[visor]

Originally Posted by victri

One day soon, we'll be sitting talking to our kids and they'll be going, "clutch?? you mean you actually had a pedal to step on those things?"

Yep, ain't that the truth...

Don't forget there is also another hidden advantage to driving a manual (not that I want to start another manual vs. auto debate again ):
There is a lesser chance that someone else will be able to drive it!
eg. spouse sharing car, or friend wanting to test-drive.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by visor

Yep, ain't that the truth...

Don't forget there is also another hidden advantage to driving a manual (not that I want to start another manual vs. auto debate again ):
There is a lesser chance that someone else will be able to drive it!
eg. spouse sharing car, or friend wanting to test-drive.

More likely the spouse and friend grind those gears since they arent used to the precise BMW transmission.

[climkt]

Manuals are more reliable, less problematic, more fuel efficient and much move involving to drive than auto/steptronic. it is true that performance gap between the two transmissions is much narrower now but i prefer a more sporty drive. 3 pedals for me anyday!

[espo]

Originally Posted by unxdawg

I have no doubt that I will miss the manual at times, but I think the fact that the gross majority of BMWs in the US are purchased with steptronic lends some credibility to BMW being able to maintain the high performance character of the car without a manual transmission.

Ah... You make two assumptions here that don't necessarily hold. 1. Most people buy BMWs for the performance of the car (they really don't). 2. Most people know how to drive a manual and actually have a choice (once again not true). Most people in the US buy a BMW for the image of the car and don't understand why the seats have these sides on them or the difference between A/S tires and performance tires..

I've owned (leased) a 2003 325xi with a auto, then a 2006 330xi with a manual. In fact the 330xi is my first manual car (I'm still learning). The only think I really didn't like about the step was the time it took to decide to change gears when I hit the lever. I understand the internals can change gears in 100ms, but how long will it take for the computer to tell the transmission to change gears when you "request" it...

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by espo89

I've owned (leased) a 2003 325xi with a auto, then a 2006 330xi with a manual. In fact the 330xi is my first manual car (I'm still learning). The only think I really didn't like about the step was the time it took to decide to change gears when I hit the lever. I understand the internals can change gears in 100ms, but how long will it take for the computer to tell the transmission to change gears when you "request" it...

You asked, “how long will it take for the computer to tell the transmission to change gears when you request it?” In the new e92 auto, 100ms.

This thread is discussing the upcoming e92 auto to manual. You have not experienced the 100ms shifting as it is on the new auto gearbox set to debut in the e92. So your experiences with the old auto/step is with slower than 100ms shifting and in an xi (which is a little slower than a 330i step). I don’t know exactly what shift times you were experiencing but it was the slowest time of a different (soon to be old) auto trans. Check this out to read about the new 100ms auto gearbox that can (in many cases) outperform most manual drivers and accurately predicts shifts. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18357

Also, if you read the first post in this thread you will see the latest shift times are within 0.1 seconds of each other. My guess is these numbers were obtained by professional drivers. Most manual drivers wont be able to duplicate those manual numbers but an auto should always perform the same.
Shift times from 0 - 1000 meters:
2007 E92 BMW 335i manual: 24.5 seconds
2007 E92 BMW 335i auto: 24.6 seconds

[Hammerfang]

personally i would only get it in a manual

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Hammerfang

personally i would only get it in a manual

I too am a manual guy (prefer SMG, DSG or whatever BMW can give us). But I want to test drive this new auto for fun. BMW has done a great job producing an auto that can be shifted (step or paddles) and is almost as efficient as a manual in performance and fuel economy. If this auto lives up to its marketing there is little denying this new transmission is extraordinary.

[cobradac]

Definately hope this migrates quickly to the larger STEP in the V8 e60, e63 and e65s

[espo]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

You asked, “how long will it take for the computer to tell the transmission to change gears when you request it?” In the new e92 auto, 100ms.

Yes I realize I had an "inferior" version of the step that I'm comparing to, and I'll agree that the transmission will shift faster, but that is not what I am really talking about. Lets say there are 3 steps to a gear change in manual mode on a step:

1. Push shift lever forward/backward
2. Transmission starts to shift
3. transmission in selected gear.

Is the 100ms from 1 to 3 or is it from 2 to 3? If it's the latter what is the time from step 1 to 2? Between step 1 and 2 is some computer code that checks a number of things to "allow" the shift. That was my compaint in my older 325xi. The time between when I asked it to shift and the time it actually started to shift. Sometimes this could be near 500 RPM under hard acceleration...

Also, the time numbers you stated are probally ran under Sport mode on the transmission that essentially shifts the car right at redline under really hard acceleration. You are not really asking for a gear change at a certain point and especially not asking for a downshift. I wonder what the time would be through a given road course in which there are a number of up and downshifts necessary...

That all being said, the BMW step is one hell of a transmission and great for people who don't want a manual, but still want to be able to change gears themselves... However, after driving a BMW manual for 6 months now, that's really not me anymore..

[YYdoodle]

Originally Posted by espo89

Is the 100ms from 1 to 3 or is it from 2 to 3? If it's the latter what is the time from step 1 to 2? Between step 1 and 2 is some computer code that checks a number of things to "allow" the shift. That was my compaint in my older 325xi. The time between when I asked it to shift and the time it actually started to shift. Sometimes this could be near 500 RPM under hard acceleration...

I think I read E90Fleet say that it's 100ms for any 4 gear changes. So I guess it's the same 100ms from for all those different gear changes.

[RPM90]

That torque converter trans may have a limited life given the new REAL auto-manuals such as DSG and BMW's new dual clutch "auto" trans.
The emerging technology such DSG from Audi is vastly superior to torque-verter auto's even the BMW Step.
BMW is working on their own dual clutch auto-manual similar to Audi's DSG. Mitsubishit is also working on a dual clutch manual and so is Subaru.

The nice thing about the DSG is that it is proper manual trans that is not hydraulicaclly driven. There are 2 clutches, there is an input shaft and on that shaft there are 2 clutches, 1 larger on the outside and 1 smaller inside of that one. Gears 1,3,5 are on one clutch and gear 2,4,6 are on the other one. The clutch engagement is operated automatically as you do not need to push a clutch pedal. You are always in a gear.
So, when you are in 1st, 2nd is ready to go on the second shaft. When the shift is called for the second clutch engages just as the first clutch disengages and moves to 3rd gear. When 3rd is requested the clutches change place. Having the dual clutch with gears ready to go reduces the shift time that a single clutch auto-manual would have.
It is incredibly fast and the most wonderful aspect about DSG type trans is how smoothly it performs PERFECT rev-matched downshifts. All that helps with MPG as power is constant with much less throttle over rev.

Also, the DSG style trans does not feel like the fast torqe-verter auto's like the Step or the Lexus unit. The Lexus unit feels nice and it's extremely fast, but you do feel the torque converter and when it locks up just like the Step.
The DSG feels like the smoothest fastest shifts you've every performed and all you do is use the paddles or shift lever.

The other big consideration with turbo engines is that with a proper manual you lift the throttle to shift, the turbo momentarily spools down until you reengage the clutch and apply throttle. The DSG does it so fast the turbo stays spooled and thus power dips are lessened, which gives better performance. Automatics and turbo's have always had that advantage as they keep boost up. So, with the 335i a fast automatic and turbo is good combo. But, I woudn't want the Step. I'd want the new dual clutch manual that BMW is getting ready to unleash.

So, I think conventional auto's are nice, but may eventually be replaced with either CVT or DSG like automatics. These trannys are lighter and have many advantages to fluid filled hydraulic complex current automatics.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

But I want to test drive this new auto for fun. BMW has done a great job producing an auto that can be shifted (step or paddles) and is almost as efficient as a manual in performance and fuel economy. If this auto lives up to its marketing there is little denying this new transmission is extraordinary.

That's the problem, though - I don't think the fun is in telling the transmission when to shift, but actually controlling the shift itself - manipulating the clutch and throttle, mainly. I don't think of the automanual shifter as being anything more than a marketing gimmick. It nowhere near emulates the control and precision of a true manual, given that most automanuals are slow to respond even when told to shift (whereas the SMG style at least has the precision and speed).

So to me, from the standpoint of fun, a DSG/SMG type box is no better than a torque converter based automatic. However, the performance advantages of the former are obvious, so that's still the obvious choice.

Most people tell me that they can understand the attraction of a manual if the car is to be driven "on the track." I don't understand that at all - in fact, on the track, where you're constantly fine-tuning your lines and have a lot more to worry about than shifting, a hands/foot free transmission makes MORE sense than a three pedal manual. Three pedals are better for the street and country back roads!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

So to me, from the standpoint of fun, a DSG/SMG type box is no better than a torque converter based automatic. However, the performance advantages of the former are obvious, so that's still the obvious choice.

I felt the same way UNTIL I drove the DSG. I was quite impressed and very very surprised. It does not feel nor work like any t-verter automatic you've every driven even the smooth MB auto.
This thing is lighting quick, very precise and you hear the gear changes and the engine and it all sounds very cool.
There is no "mush" in it's shifts or engagements since it is a true mechanical manual trans. No, you don't control the clutch and that viseral appeal is gone. However, for me, it was replaced by the awesome feeling on constant pull, no "lunge" during shifts, and the best smoothest downshifts you'll NEVER pull off that consistently.
And, you gain a better feel of the steering as you don't have to move your hand while entering, going through, or powering out of the turn. So, you lose the clutch control but you gain steering control and feel.

I too set out thinking there is no way I would like it as I like to operate the clutch and move the lever, and I still do.
But, the DSG is so smooth and sporty in it's operation that I honestly believe it is a very viable sport option. You can shift via the gear lever or use the paddles in the DSG. I'm sure BMW's new dual clutch will be similar. The SMG was not so good in daily driving as it was too abrupt and not smooth in slower driving.
The DSG is a different beast altogether. It's smooth in slow traffic take offs and lightening quick when sport driving.

The only thing I didn't like in some of the DSG's I drove, and only 1 or 2 did this, there is a "lag" right off from stop. Oddly, that wasn't the case in most of them. In the VW GTI, with DSG, there will be a "launch control" feature coming with the 2007 model, which Euro cars have had since day 1. LC allows the driver to hold the brake, mash the throttle, the engine revs to a preset rpm (3500prm?), and then you let the brake go and the system controls the wheelspin
for perfect hard takeoffs. In a standard manual one of it's glorious attributes is that you can control the engine rpm and release the clutch when you want for quicker takeoffs.
I hope BMW has this LC feature when their dual clutch manual comes.

I believe the M3 SMG had LC as well, but I think it was limited to how many times it could be used? I haven't heard that the LC is limited in the DSG.

[akhbhaat]

Interesting. Even the engineers' portion of my brain has been telling me I'd like the DSG, even though I've never driven with it.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by espo89

Yes I realize I had an "inferior" version of the step that I'm comparing to, and I'll agree that the transmission will shift faster, but that is not what I am really talking about. Lets say there are 3 steps to a gear change in manual mode on a step:

1. Push shift lever forward/backward
2. Transmission starts to shift
3. transmission in selected gear.

Is the 100ms from 1 to 3 or is it from 2 to 3? If it's the latter what is the time from step 1 to 2? Between step 1 and 2 is some computer code that checks a number of things to "allow" the shift. That was my compaint in my older 325xi. The time between when I asked it to shift and the time it actually started to shift. Sometimes this could be near 500 RPM under hard acceleration...

Also, the time numbers you stated are probally ran under Sport mode on the transmission that essentially shifts the car right at redline under really hard acceleration. You are not really asking for a gear change at a certain point and especially not asking for a downshift. I wonder what the time would be through a given road course in which there are a number of up and downshifts necessary...

That all being said, the BMW step is one hell of a transmission and great for people who don't want a manual, but still want to be able to change gears themselves... However, after driving a BMW manual for 6 months now, that's really not me anymore..

The 100ms is supposed to be at all stages - if you don’t like that answer then we will have to wait until its out to look at it more closely. To answer your questions about shifting maybe you can understand what leftlane wrote better than the info in the pr or what I have tried to explain.
“The system is designed to give the automatic transmission increased precision, without any time-consuming search for the right gear, which the driver would experience as an unwanted delay.

According to BMW, the new six-speed automatic transmission sets new standards for shift times. The new six-speed automatic transmission completes every gearshift process faster than the vast majority of sporting drivers experienced in shifting gears manually.

In a kick-down situation at a speed of 50 mph in sixth gear, the transmission can shift in just 100 milliseconds to second gear. While this is happening, the control unit sends a positive force pulse to the engine, which immediately increases its speed from approximately 1,400 to more than 5,000 rpm.”