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      04-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #45
mlhj83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azmurciev12
please make sure to run with M mode on and MDM. i noticed when not in MDM, i'm much slower as the electronics is killing power or braking the car once it senses even a little slip. take off the 1M around 3Krpm and shift at 6.5Krpm on second gear and around 6K on third onwards. no need to redline the 1M -at least that's what i do and i've been successful =) 40-80mph is very short. if your max speed is 80mph, then start from at least 20mph and see what happens =)
Thanks. That's what we did. Video will follow in due course. All in the name of objectivity. As I said, all M cars are great.
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      04-01-2012, 02:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
We started from 30mph and 40mph, till no more than 80mph. At those speeds, I'll be going through gears 1 2 and 3. The 1M can only start from gear 2 at 30mph due to insufficient traction when we tested in winter. But we'll try again from gear 1 this time round. I'll do a video to get better clarity. Cheers.
From 30 your results make some sense, as you can see. You won't get power down in 1st with PS2s in the 1M, PSS maybe. From 40 to 70 the smart money is on the 1M, especially if you brake boost to eliminate turbo spool.
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      04-01-2012, 03:46 PM   #47
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Suffice it to say that when you have 2 closely matched cars, and a non timed event meaning no countdown, then either car can win given who takes the jump.

That's why if you're going to test for acceleration, then a drag track with timers is a much better way to get accurate results.

From a roll, someone has to count down, that person has the advantage, because he knows when he's going to say "GO!" That could be half a second to even a whole second of being WFO before the other cars driver responds.
So, even if the other car is 1 second faster according to timed test, from a roll, the "slower" car can still beat it.

That's between 2 closely matched cars. Now, if you've got one car that is tested at 2-3 seconds faster, then even a slow response by that car can make the "slower" car competitive, meaning it could be right on it's heels where on tested paper it should be more.

It shouldn't be that surprising that a car that may test slower according to tested data can still beat a car that tests higher, when in a roll drag.

How do the 1M and M3 compare on the 1/4 mile timed track?
This is assuming multiple averaged runs with equally competent driver or drivers.
This will show the actual real potential of each car.
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      04-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
If we're going to bench race let's do it properly... The proper way is to create thrust curves for both cars. You take the torque from the car's dyno and calculate how much thrust results at the wheels by taking the gearing and tire diameter into account. You then divide that by the car's weight (with driver) and you have a thrust to weight ratio, from which you can derive acceleration. Higher thrust to weight is of course better. Do this for both cars you want to compare, for every gear.

Attached is this graph for a 1M with a typical dyno vs a typical manual M3. Compare the two lines- at any given speed when the blue line is on top the 1M is pulling harder, when the red line is on top the M3 is pulling harder...

Now, the OP said 40 mph roll-on. And we see at 40 mph the 1M is pulling 24% harder in 2nd gear, and will pull away quickly. At 60 mph the M3 starts to pull harder; it's slower at this point so it needs to build up speed before it can match the 1M and begin catching it, but at 70 the M3 shifts and the 1M is pulling harder until a bit over 90 mph. From there us the M3 and 1M go back and forth, but at these speeds you really need to factor aero in which will begin to favor the M3.

So not only plausible that the 1M will pull the M3 from 40 mph, but obvious, regardless of what gear the M3 is in. If the drag had started at ~52 it could have been a very close race. As you say it's pure physics, but it's more complex than BHP per ton...
This is such a keeper post, thanks. I actually remember from early days of 1M, some dyno graphs showing stock 1M and stock M3 together (maybe was Insideline), and it was very interesting to see that the 1M actually produces not only more torque but also more power from idle to around 6350 rpm! After that M3 starts to make both more power and more torque than the 1M, but then the 1M shifts upwards around that point and falls back to its fat torque and power band yet again. It really seems to be hard for M3 especially so for a manual, to catch the 1M till around 160-180 km/h (100-110 mph) or till the end of 1Ms first 3 gears, the trick here is that the 1M needs a good launch which is more difficult to manage than in M3. When the 1M starts in the 4th, the (much) worse aerodynamics also starts to help the M3 catch up and get ahead from then on.

One more time, just another way of seeing the particular strengths and weaknesses of each car. I prefer the 1M but this doesn't make me think that the M3 is not a as good sports car. In fact, they are so different in making power and handling wise, it is surprising that these races against each other and comparos keep going on. Not that they are not fun, mostly they are but still few seem to understand that they really are very different cars despite some shared components.
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      04-01-2012, 05:27 PM   #49
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Well if your going to look at quarter mile runs you really need to look at manual vs manual.

DCT is a video game and launch control gives it a huge advantage.

Eliminating the car driving for you is what M/// did with the 1M.

If you look at results also look at the same exact magazine or time trials from the same company.
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      04-01-2012, 06:40 PM   #50
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IMO, M3 is a superior track car, while the 1M is a better street car for every-day real world driving.
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      04-01-2012, 07:20 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianf View Post
IMO, M3 is a superior track car, while the 1M is a better street car for every-day real world driving.
Depends on the track. M3 needs real-estate to achieve it's full potential. 1M on the other hand always has massive torque available.
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      04-03-2012, 11:52 AM   #52
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One other thing worth mentioning here when doing these comparisons are the actual vs rated power numbers. The 1Ms we've seen have been dynoing between 315 and 330+ rwhp on dynojets. M3s are generally making between 340 and 360 whp on the same dynos stock. So rather than the 80 hp difference BMW claims, the it looks like the actual difference is more like 25 to 30 hp stock. Given the weight difference between the cars this virtually cancels out the paper power to weight advantage the M3 has up top. You can certainly see how a strong 1M would equal or even run away from a weaker M3s even at higher speeds, as some of the videos indicate.

1Ms:


Lower run is stock below:

Lower run is stock below:


M3s:

Lower run is stock below:


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      04-03-2012, 12:34 PM   #53
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I will follow up with real world comparisons in a couple of weeks between my M3 and my chum's 1M, both of which have lived similar lives since delivery and I'll be getting a performance box for accurate measurement as well. He is also an active poster here and will verify the results.
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      04-03-2012, 12:50 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
I will follow up with real world comparisons in a couple of weeks between my M3 and my chum's 1M, both of which have lived similar lives since delivery and I'll be getting a performance box for accurate measurement as well. He is also an active poster here and will verify the results.
That'd be a useful data point. Do you guys have dyno runs? As you have a DCT make sure you also get some starting in 2nd gear runs to take shifting out of the equation.
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      04-03-2012, 01:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
That'd be a useful data point. Do you guys have dyno runs? As you have a DCT make sure you also get some starting in 2nd gear runs to take shifting out of the equation.
I had a dyno run at Evolve Automotive using Dyno Dynamics and will post once I have all the data. My friend does not have one, but has broken the engine in by the book, and both of us have tracked our cars a number of times and maintenance is tip top.

I plan to run our cars independently within the same period of time and location for safety. Running independently with Performance Box will also remove the difference of reaction times and shifting mistakes that occur when side by side drag races are videoed.

Obviously, the M3 DCT would be in a lower gear for certain speeds compared to the 1M, but that is only fair given that we are testing the maximum potential for both cars - that is not to say that the 1M will be in a higher gear than necessary ie both cars will be in their lowest possible gear for a particular speed.
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      04-04-2012, 11:16 AM   #56
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Guys... please remember the "No Kill" policy. No posting or condoling street racing. Thanks.
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      04-04-2012, 02:16 PM   #57
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^^^Yeah guys, what do you think this is, the M3 forum...I kid, I kid.

Last edited by MrRoboto; 04-04-2012 at 02:36 PM..
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      04-17-2012, 04:52 PM   #58
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Great info! It just confirms my thoughts. The 1M is crazy fast! I did own a understated Alpina B3 3.3 and it did outperform all E46 M3 all the time. The 1M feels so much faster. Can confirm that M and MDM mode is the thing. Its just crazy! I pull away from anything so far. The 1M is understated. People to 0-100 km/h in 4.4s. The car pulls away from M3, M5, M6 and with a cheap tuning chip 997 GT and tuned AMG black edition! Crazy! I just say one thing "Mmmmmmm!" ;-) Love it! The best M car so far and happy owner of it! So fun and so good car! Oh and cheap!
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      04-17-2012, 05:05 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Depends on the track. M3 needs real-estate to achieve it's full potential. 1M on the other hand always has massive torque available.
You got it!
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      04-17-2012, 05:10 PM   #60
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For the M3 e9x owners:
http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...er-System.html

You should be able to kill almost anything with that one... ;-)
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