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      04-01-2017, 03:50 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadalac View Post
through my searching I came across this website thats seems to have a lot of good info on oil with a ranking list.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I read that site and believed all the info. I was running Rotella conventional 10w30 in the race car so i figured why not switch to dexos approved M1 5w30. Its got like 50000 more psi of protection. Even at 275F it was supppsed to have better protection than Rotella.

3 sessions into a cool Road America track day i'm seeing low oil pressure. I changed back to Rotella but the damage was done. I'm currently in the process of repacing the engine bearings.

Just my personal experience and another reason i'm overly worried about what oil to run in the more expense 135i.
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      04-05-2017, 08:52 AM   #24
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What is the difference from Motul's x-cess and X-Max line of oils ?

I was thinking of trying Motul 8100 X-Max 0W-40 instead of Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40.
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      04-05-2017, 09:23 AM   #25
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I am not a track junky by any means but I do get to the track about once a year. I used motul xcess 5w-40 and have completed two UOA. I don't understand all of the technical discussion going on nor do I have the time to learn about it all, so I keep it simple. Do some research, pick an oil, test it, and make a decision based on my results. Here are my results: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193418
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      04-06-2017, 12:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadalac View Post
through my searching I came across this website thats seems to have a lot of good info on oil with a ranking list.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
I've read that, and there is great info in there which coincides with everything I've said, but, his actual oil rankings are useless.

His test is flawed in so many ways. There are already certified tests in place that tell you everything you would want to know about an oil, stick with the results from standardized tests developed by tribology experts not internet hobbyists.
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      04-06-2017, 12:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faulal View Post
What is the difference from Motul's x-cess and X-Max line of oils ?

I was thinking of trying Motul 8100 X-Max 0W-40 instead of Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40.
x-cess is "better" with HTHS of 3.73 vs x-Max 3.58. X-Max is a slightly thinner oil. I'd speculate, X-max greater viscosity index means it's probably just x-cess with a little more VI modifiers added to it to achieve the greater viscosity spread. It's probably less durable and more volatile as well because of the added modifiers. It's also not LL-01 approved so it's obviously lacking in some way vs the X-Cess. The technical data sheets don't tell us much beyond that above speculation.

0-40 X-Max
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...pdf?1449520180

5-40 X-Cess
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m...pdf?1375200241

Last edited by bNks334; 04-06-2017 at 01:24 PM..
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      04-06-2017, 01:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houtan View Post
I am not a track junky by any means but I do get to the track about once a year. I used motul xcess 5w-40 and have completed two UOA. I don't understand all of the technical discussion going on nor do I have the time to learn about it all, so I keep it simple. Do some research, pick an oil, test it, and make a decision based on my results. Here are my results: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193418
Here is my first oil analysis running Castrol Edge 0-40 LL-01, 2500miles change, 3 track days (2 @ Plamer with 26xf oil temps and 1 @ Lime Rock 27xf oil temps), 85k miles on the motor.

This was the first time I had done an oil analysis. I did it because I was afraid of wear on the engine from the 3 track days within a month span on top of 2k+ commuting miles... Metal counts and oil specs barely show any usage (200 load/20psi 93 octane COBB protune by COBB). I stick to 5k mile oil changes now and the cheap Castrol 0-40 or 0-30 if I can find it. Seems to work just fine for a handful of HPDE's and 3 months of daily driving...

No way anyone in here is spinning bearings because their oil (I'm referring to LL-01 spec oils) isn't good enough. People spin bearings on track because of high g-forces and oil pickup issues, something BMW themselves recognized as an issue on the N54 and revised for the N55. Either that, or these people only did BMW recommended service intervals (12k mile oil changes) despite putting much greater wear on the oil.


Last edited by bNks334; 04-06-2017 at 02:13 PM..
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      04-06-2017, 02:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z16A View Post
I read that site and believed all the info. I was running Rotella conventional 10w30 in the race car so i figured why not switch to dexos approved M1 5w30. Its got like 50000 more psi of protection. Even at 275F it was supppsed to have better protection than Rotella.

3 sessions into a cool Road America track day i'm seeing low oil pressure. I changed back to Rotella but the damage was done. I'm currently in the process of repacing the engine bearings.

Just my personal experience and another reason i'm overly worried about what oil to run in the more expense 135i.
Mobil 1 5-30 is a pretty thin oil. It is not LL-01 approved. It has a HTHS of 3.1.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1

You should've ran the 0-40 with a HTHS of 3.6. The 0-40 is no longer LL-01 approved either though and has been showing poor results through UOA's. It does not appear to be the same durable formula as was highly regarded in the past (the old formula was LL-01 approved).
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      04-06-2017, 02:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334
Quote:
Originally Posted by houtan View Post
I am not a track junky by any means but I do get to the track about once a year. I used motul xcess 5w-40 and have completed two UOA. I don't understand all of the technical discussion going on nor do I have the time to learn about it all, so I keep it simple. Do some research, pick an oil, test it, and make a decision based on my results. Here are my results: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193418
Here is my first oil analysis running Castrol Edge 0-40 LL-01, 2500miles change, 3 track days (2 @ Plamer with 26xf oil temps and 1 @ Lime Rock 27xf oil temps), 85k miles on the motor.

This was the first time I had done an oil analysis. I did it because I was afraid of wear on the engine from the 3 track days within a month span on top of 2k+ commuting miles... Metal counts and oil specs barely show any usage (200 load/20psi 93 octane COBB protune by COBB). I stick to 5k mile oil changes now and the cheap Castrol 0-40. Seems to work just fine for track use.

No way anyone in here is spinning bearings because their oil (I'm referring to LL-01 spec oils) isn't good enough. People spin bearings on track because of high g-forces and oil pickup issues, something BMW themselves recognized as an issue on the N54 and revised for the N55. Either that, or these people only did BMW recommended service intervals (12k mile oil changes) despite putting much greater wear on the oil.

Don't forget the oil filter will capture alot of the wear metals meaning they won't show on the Blackstone report unless you've got a serious problem.
sludge is the biggest killer of engine bearings imo.

26x/27x is relatively low oil temps it's not uncommon to see temps in the mid 280's which lowers the viscosity of the oil even more. I think that's what people need to realise is that it's not so much what the oil looks like after the track day it's what it looks like during, at high temp, which is why I believe you want a quality oil if tracking the car. (not saying at all that the castrol is bad)

I think make sure your oil level is topped up and maybe even slighly overfill and this should alleviate any oil starvation issues unless MAYBE if you're on r comp tyres maxing them out.
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      04-06-2017, 05:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
Don't forget the oil filter will capture alot of the wear metals meaning they won't show on the Blackstone report unless you've got a serious problem.
sludge is the biggest killer of engine bearings imo.

26x/27x is relatively low oil temps it's not uncommon to see temps in the mid 280's which lowers the viscosity of the oil even more. I think that's what people need to realise is that it's not so much what the oil looks like after the track day it's what it looks like during, at high temp, which is why I believe you want a quality oil if tracking the car. (not saying at all that the castrol is bad)

I think make sure your oil level is topped up and maybe even slighly overfill and this should alleviate any oil starvation issues unless MAYBE if you're on r comp tyres maxing them out.
Uhhh what do you think your hths rating tells you?

It tells you the viscosity of the oil in a dynamic situation (high temp and high shear). The oil is tested for shear at 300f... if the oil has a hths rating of 3.7 then at 280f it's viscosity is above 3.7 but below cSt rating (usually around 12.0 @ 210f for an ll-01 oil).

A uoa tells you how much the oil has permanently sheared. If the oils parameters, like cst, tbn, and flash point, have fallen way short of the oils spec than you know the oil has reached its useful live. If the oil came out of the bottle at a cSt of 12.0, but the uoa shows its down to 11.0, then the hths rating at 300f has fallen off from say 3.7 to 3.5. That permanent shear over time could cause the oil to fail to protect the bearings. That just isn't going to happen to an ll-01 high quality oil in a handful of track days and a few thousands miles.... as proven by the above uoas. If your changing your oil every 5k miles you can get a handful of track days out of it too and it will still be in spec.

What we care about is using an oil with a high quality base stock that will maintain that 3.7 hths rating long term. Only a uoa can tell you how well an oil is holding up over time and use and ll-01 clearly set the bar pretty high in this regard and always shows strong in uoas.

Last edited by bNks334; 04-06-2017 at 05:54 PM..
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      04-06-2017, 06:20 PM   #32
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agreed with the above what you also need to be aware of is where the oil temp is measured

I'm willing to bet that in some parts of the engine oil temps are 20F or more above what's indicated.

I imagine that 3.7cst falls off pretty quickly above 300F.
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      04-06-2017, 09:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Here is my first oil analysis running Castrol Edge 0-40 LL-01, 2500miles change, 3 track days (2 @ Plamer with 26xf oil temps and 1 @ Lime Rock 27xf oil temps), 85k miles on the motor.

This was the first time I had done an oil analysis. I did it because I was afraid of wear on the engine from the 3 track days within a month span on top of 2k+ commuting miles... Metal counts and oil specs barely show any usage (200 load/20psi 93 octane COBB protune by COBB). I stick to 5k mile oil changes now and the cheap Castrol 0-40 or 0-30 if I can find it. Seems to work just fine for a handful of HPDE's and 3 months of daily driving...

No way anyone in here is spinning bearings because their oil (I'm referring to LL-01 spec oils) isn't good enough. People spin bearings on track because of high g-forces and oil pickup issues, something BMW themselves recognized as an issue on the N54 and revised for the N55. Either that, or these people only did BMW recommended service intervals (12k mile oil changes) despite putting much greater wear on the oil.

Nice result. Looks like Castrol is another great option.
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      04-07-2017, 02:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Mobil 1 5-30 is a pretty thin oil. It is not LL-01 approved. It has a HTHS of 3.1.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1

You should've ran the 0-40 with a HTHS of 3.6. The 0-40 is no longer LL-01 approved either though and has been showing poor results through UOA's. It does not appear to be the same durable formula as was highly regarded in the past (the old formula was LL-01 approved).
I was only able to find a VOA on BITOG for M1 0W-40 FS suggesting it was similar if not the same as the LL-01 stuff. Can you share some links about the inferiority of the new M1 0w-40? My (likely uninformed) assumption was that there some politics or semantics behind the scenes rather than an actual formulation change.
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      04-07-2017, 09:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
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I was only able to find a VOA on BITOG for M1 0W-40 FS suggesting it was similar if not the same as the LL-01 stuff. Can you share some links about the inferiority of the new M1 0w-40? My (likely uninformed) assumption was that there some politics or semantics behind the scenes rather than an actual formulation change.
It's 100% a different formula. I already posted the data sheets in this thread. The fs is thinner and less shear stable.
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      04-07-2017, 09:46 PM   #36
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Just as a data point, here is a Blackstone report from a 2009 BMW 135i with 14 track days on it. It was seeing 290 degree oil temperature, which was higher than normally seen (usually in the 270-280 range). According to Blackstone it was fine - Mobil 1 0W-40.

No - I usually don't go 14 track days before an oil change!

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      04-08-2017, 08:33 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeo View Post
Just as a data point, here is a Blackstone report from a 2009 BMW 135i with 14 track days on it. It was seeing 290 degree oil temperature, which was higher than normally seen (usually in the 270-280 range). According to Blackstone it was fine - Mobil 1 0W-40.

No - I usually don't go 14 track days before an oil change!

You had to of added oil across 14 track days in 2500miles. Your cSt shows 12.76 when the new mobil 1 fs has a cSt of 12.9 out of the bottle. Your uoa basically shows your oil is brand new lol.

Regardless, I think the take away is still that people aren't spinning bearings on track because their oil isn't good enough lol. Yet, every damn time it happens the first thing everyone says is "must have been the oil" and "my grandpa only run straight 60 weight on track you should too next time." That heavier weight oil isn't going to do squat vs ll-01 in an n54/n55 expect increase oil temps and shear faster lol.
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      04-08-2017, 10:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
It's 100% a different formula. I already posted the data sheets in this thread. The fs is thinner and less shear stable.
I looked back over the thread and did not see the M1 0W-40 FS vs LL-01 data sheets?
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      04-09-2017, 10:35 AM   #39
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That's true. I used to be able to get European Mobil One 0W-40 from the local parts store and it had the LL01 label. It no longer does (as about 1 year ago), and so I've switched to Castrol Edge 0W-40 which is. I don't know what changed, but you're absolutely right, Mobil doesn't have the LL01 specification any longer.
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      04-10-2017, 08:39 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayao View Post
I looked back over the thread and did not see the M1 0W-40 FS vs LL-01 data sheets?
Looks like this is another one of those instances where you have to be very careful of which bottle you grab off the shelf.

Australian data sheet: Mobile 1 0-40 European Car formula (LL-01 approved):
http://www.mobil.com/english-AU/Pass...XXMobil-1-0W40

I cannot find the "European car formula" on the Mobil 1 page for the United states. It only show sup on the Australian page. However, "European car formula" is definitely on the shelf at my local auto part store. I'd check the bottle to make sure it ACTUALLY has the ll-01 stamp on it. If not, there is a chance the "European Car Formula" we get here in the states is NOT the same one as the data sheet linked to above (found on the AU site).

The new Mobil 1 FS formula 0-40. This is the standard bottle you see on the shelf. It is no longer LL-01, and has different specs than the old formula:
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1

Can't find the old data sheet, but the regular Mobil 1 0-40 used to have similar specs to the 0-40 European car formula I linked to above. It is now thinner (HTHS 3.8 vs 3.6). The problem with this is that the European car formula doesn't go on sale like the regular full synthetic does, so people just grab the regular 0-40 off the shelf at their local auto part not realizing it's no longer the same formula and no longer approved for many higher end cars (as of 2016?). I couldn't find the old data sheet, but here is the specs I saw noted elsewhere for the "old" full synthetic:

Approvals:
- API SN, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
- MB 229.3, 229.5, LL-01, VW 502 00/505 00, Porsche A40, Nissan GT-R

Specs:
@ 40ºC .................................................. .....................75
@ 100ºC............................................. .........................13.5
Viscosity Index............................................. .................185
MRV at -40ºC, cP (ASTM D4684) .........................................31000
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC, (ASTM D4683).......................3.8
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896).......................................11.8
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874)..........................................1.3
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4981).........................................0.1
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92).............................................. .230
Density @15ºC, g/ml (ASTM D4052).....................................0.85

Last edited by bbnks2; 04-10-2017 at 09:06 AM..
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      04-30-2017, 12:12 AM   #41
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I use PurOl 10w40. Ive been using this for almost 2 years in both my 135 weekend car and just even just started using this oil in my DD A3. the oil is great, noticed lower oil temps and with the stock cooling ive yet to see the oil go past 270 on the track. I've also never had limp mode or anything while running this oil. It cools down fairly quickly between sessions and I've noticed the car runs much better and smoother, although my motor did blow (over 30 track days, 300-400 1st - 5th gear pulls, and 125k. i literally drove my car like i stole it but i own it). I will be using PurOl in the next motor and doing some other things to keep the car running consistently and safely. many of my friends with E30s started using it with nothing but great things to say.

http://www.bisimoto.com i normally order 2 cases at a time and its good for 3 oil changes. i change it every 4-5k or depending on how many track days ive done
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      05-01-2017, 08:20 AM   #42
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Anecdotal story to supply to this thread:

Ran M1 5W40 for 2 track days and about 2000 street miles, then sent it in to Blackstone for analysis. Oil temps were 270 all day on track and I'm pushing hard. Heard through the grapevine that the M1's "diesel and truck" oil has a higher zinc count, which is helpful with anti-wear properties. My car is catless, so no harm, no foul in trying.

Drum roll please...Blackstone says shows that the viscosity was still fine (no massive permanent shear issues), and the additive counts in the oil were all still good to go. They recommended bumping my OCI up to 3, maybe 4 track days, depending on the street miles in-between.

Blackstone report is attached:
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File Type: pdf 10 135I-170408.pdf (17.4 KB, 280 views)
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