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      08-04-2017, 08:05 AM   #1
AndyW
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Wheels and tires for the track?

So, first, I have to say, thx to those who have me advice on the sequence of what to do to get my 135i to be a great streetable track car. I will now apologize because I am disregarding some of that advice...

Guess I am just one who wants to learn the hard way. Anyhow....got a few track days under my belt, and, to me, it is clearly the RFT stock tires that are my current limitation. I realize the conventional wisdom is to upgrade suspension next (and I actually agree with the logic) but I think I am going to do tires first. For the following reasons:

1. I don't have the 3-4K right now to drop on the setup I really want (and don't want to do the suspension incrementally) and

2. I don't want to trash my RFT's (which are basically brand new)

3. Even if they weren't RFT's, I can now feel the 215 width of the stock front tires is too narrow.

So a second set of wheels with decent streetable track tires seems logical.

Car is a 2012 M-sport. Only mods are brake shims, RBF600 brake fluid, a K&N Filter and an upgrade FMIC. No tune yet(see, I didn't disregard all the good advice! ).

I have read way too many threads on staggered vs square and 17" vs 18" and there are clearly lots of opinions. This is what I believe to be the case:

1. 135 has crappy offsets and a tight front wheel well to properly do a square setup without some mods (up to and including the ECS wider front bumper and fender kit). Or I have to accept a smaller tire width all around. One option has a lot of dollar signs to do correctly (and I like to do things correctly) and the other one seems like a step backwards.

2. Square gives more "neutral" control, staggered has more understeer but better staightline grip during acceleration.

I am leaning toward staying staggered... (This article is pretty convincing), especially since I am still a newer driver and understeer is "safer".

3. 17" and 18" wheels can both come with the same width (and therefore contact patch) but 17" wheels and tires are lower unsprung weigh and typically cost less, which both seem like pretty good positives. Also seems like lots of dedicated track cars go 17".

4. 17" wheel and tire options seem more limited than 18".

I think the minimum I should put on front right now is a 235 (from what I've read 245+ requires camber plates and fender rolling to prevent rubbing and I'm not there yet.)

So, two decisions I need some help with...staggered vs square and 17" vs 18". I've pretty much settled on RE71's as the tire since this will still be a streetable car and I intend to drive to events on the tires I will track with (swap out the night before). I suppose i am willing to do a slight roll of the fenders (the tool is only $50 or so) but really don't want to do major surgery on my car at this time.

Any recommendations welcome! Next year is the suspension mod...I promise...
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      08-04-2017, 08:27 AM   #2
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FYI: You can fit 255/40/17 all around with stock suspension and no camber plates.
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      08-04-2017, 10:04 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
So, first, I have to say, thx to those who have me advice on the sequence of what to do to get my 135i to be a great streetable track car. I will now apologize because I am disregarding some of that advice...

Guess I am just one who wants to learn the hard way. Anyhow....got a few track days under my belt, and, to me, it is clearly the RFT stock tires that are my current limitation. I realize the conventional wisdom is to upgrade suspension next (and I actually agree with the logic) but I think I am going to do tires first. For the following reasons:

1. I don't have the 3-4K right now to drop on the setup I really want (and don't want to do the suspension incrementally) and

2. I don't want to trash my RFT's (which are basically brand new)

3. Even if they weren't RFT's, I can now feel the 215 width of the stock front tires is too narrow.

So a second set of wheels with decent streetable track tires seems logical.

Car is a 2012 M-sport. Only mods are brake shims, RBF600 brake fluid, a K&N Filter and an upgrade FMIC. No tune yet(see, I didn't disregard all the good advice! ).

I have read way too many threads on staggered vs square and 17" vs 18" and there are clearly lots of opinions. This is what I believe to be the case:

1. 135 has crappy offsets and a tight front wheel well to properly do a square setup without some mods (up to and including the ECS wider front bumper and fender kit). Or I have to accept a smaller tire width all around. One option has a lot of dollar signs to do correctly (and I like to do things correctly) and the other one seems like a step backwards.

2. Square gives more "neutral" control, staggered has more understeer but better staightline grip during acceleration.

I am leaning toward staying staggered... (This article is pretty convincing), especially since I am still a newer driver and understeer is "safer".

3. 17" and 18" wheels can both come with the same width (and therefore contact patch) but 17" wheels and tires are lower unsprung weigh and typically cost less, which both seem like pretty good positives. Also seems like lots of dedicated track cars go 17".

4. 17" wheel and tire options seem more limited than 18".

I think the minimum I should put on front right now is a 235 (from what I've read 245+ requires camber plates and fender rolling to prevent rubbing and I'm not there yet.)

So, two decisions I need some help with...staggered vs square and 17" vs 18". I've pretty much settled on RE71's as the tire since this will still be a streetable car and I intend to drive to events on the tires I will track with (swap out the night before). I suppose i am willing to do a slight roll of the fenders (the tool is only $50 or so) but really don't want to do major surgery on my car at this time.

Any recommendations welcome! Next year is the suspension mod...I promise...
Hi there, I'll give you my $0.02. Coming from a stock staggered setup last season on a few track days with no camber plates running on RE71's the tire selection is great! They are super grippy, give good feedback and tend to last (with one caveat). If you don't address the understeer you will tear through front tires at the track. I killed a front set of RE71r's in one weekend at Palmer here on the east coast.

Fast forward to this season, and after Vorschlag camber plates and a proper alignment (running -3.2* up front). I hit The Glen for a weekend on fresh RE71's on the front and there was minimal tire wear. A huge improvement in turn in and handling, and tires were wearing normal! Big win.

Then let's hop to just a month ago, I pulled the trigger on a set of Apex ARC8's square 18x8.5 et45s, with new RE71's on them. Fitment is great (minor rub on front under full compression at turn). I got to run these last weekend, and what a different feel on the square setup. There is definitely a marked turn in sensitivity and the balance lines feel quite different running 235's all the way around. After a few laps though, it was out of my mind and I was readjusted to the new feel. I like this setup as now I can rotate tires and get more life out of my RE71's.

My hopes are as I develop as a driver on track will be to move to a 18x9.5" ARC8 next year with a proper track tire on that and keep the 8.5"s for rain duty possibly or as backup. Understanding that I'll need to get a fender roll or WB kit on the front end for the 9.5" to fit properly this may still be a ways off in the future for me. I'll be happy with my square 8.5"s for quite some time I believe.

If I were you, and you think you will be spending any amount of time on track I'd suggest biting the bullet now and moving to square and invest the money in camber plates and a proper alignment.

Hope this helps!

Last edited by R1wheelieforfun; 08-04-2017 at 01:02 PM..
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      08-04-2017, 01:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrahams View Post
FYI: You can fit 255/40/17 all around with stock suspension and no camber plates.
What width/offest wheels? Is a fender roll needed?
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      08-04-2017, 06:34 PM   #5
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You will be very limited with stock camber and track tires.
I suggest to pick up a cheap set of stock rims. Then get a set of R-comps. I suggest to get 225/40/18 Front, 245/40/18 rear. The front tires are going to get worn badly on the outside shoulder, so wider front tires wouldn't help much. After they are half done, you can get the tires flipped left-to-right to extend the life a bit. When you are ready to install camber plates, you will want to buy at least a pair of wider front wheels with different offset.

The other option is to get a set of 17x9 wheels from tire rack.
In that case you will need:
1) camber plates to fit a 245/40/17 front tire.
2) Suitable spacers to clear the front strut.
3) possibly some Fender modifications to fit a 255/40/17 tire on the rear.

The disadvantage of 17" rims is that they will not clear a BBK if you eventually decide to go that way.
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      08-04-2017, 06:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerAg View Post
What width/offest wheels? Is a fender roll needed?
17x8.5 Kosei K1, 40mm offset. No spacers. No fender roll. Falken 615k (not +) tire.
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      08-04-2017, 06:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1wheelieforfun View Post
Hi there, I'll give you my $0.02. Coming from a stock staggered setup last season on a few track days with no camber plates running on RE71's the tire selection is great! They are super grippy, give good feedback and tend to last (with one caveat). If you don't address the understeer you will tear through front tires at the track. I killed a front set of RE71r's in one weekend at Palmer here on the east coast.

Fast forward to this season, and after Vorschlag camber plates and a proper alignment (running -3.2* up front). I hit The Glen for a weekend on fresh RE71's on the front and there was minimal tire wear. A huge improvement in turn in and handling, and tires were wearing normal! Big win.

Then let's hop to just a month ago, I pulled the trigger on a set of Apex ARC8's square 18x8.5 et45s, with new RE71's on them. Fitment is great (minor rub on front under full compression at turn). I got to run these last weekend, and what a different feel on the square setup. There is definitely a marked turn in sensitivity and the balance lines feel quite different running 235's all the way around. After a few laps though, it was out of my mind and I was readjusted to the new feel. I like this setup as now I can rotate tires and get more life out of my RE71's.

My hopes are as I develop as a driver on track will be to move to a 18x9.5" ARC8 next year with a proper track tire on that and keep the 8.5"s for rain duty possibly or as backup. Understanding that I'll need to get a fender roll or WB kit on the front end for the 9.5" to fit properly this may still be a ways off in the future for me. I'll be happy with my square 8.5"s for quite some time I believe.

If I were you, and you think you will be spending any amount of time on track I'd suggest biting the bullet now and moving to square and invest the money in camber plates and a proper alignment.

Hope this helps!
THx! Sounds like I am just behind you on the journey.
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      08-04-2017, 06:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrahams View Post
17x8.5 Kosei K1, 40mm offset. No spacers. No fender roll. Falken 615k (not +) tire.
Wow...and no rubbing? No offense, but this doesn't track with a LOT of other posts on the topic I have read. What front camber are you running? I really want this to be true!
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      08-04-2017, 09:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
You will be very limited with stock camber and track tires.
I suggest to pick up a cheap set of stock rims. Then get a set of R-comps. I suggest to get 225/40/18 Front, 245/40/18 rear. The front tires are going to get worn badly on the outside shoulder, so wider front tires wouldn't help much. After they are half done, you can get the tires flipped left-to-right to extend the life a bit. When you are ready to install camber plates, you will want to buy at least a pair of wider front wheels with different offset.

The other option is to get a set of 17x9 wheels from tire rack.
In that case you will need:
1) camber plates to fit a 245/40/17 front tire.
2) Suitable spacers to clear the front strut.
3) possibly some Fender modifications to fit a 255/40/17 tire on the rear.

The disadvantage of 17" rims is that they will not clear a BBK if you eventually decide to go that way.
Thx for the feedback.

I was pushed away from R-comps as I was told that without an upgraded suspension to go along with them, I'll get a lot of body roll. Plus they are less progressive in how they breakaway.

the BBK issue is a good point because i know I will probably end up going there!

Maybe I first drop the coin on the Dinan Camber plates..that will expand my, shall we say "mid range" options...
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      08-04-2017, 11:11 PM   #10
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Dinan camber plates together with M3 front arms may be a small help with more camber (Not great, but usable for a few track days). It will have less understeer and be better to drive. Tire wear on the outside shoulder of the front tire will still continue to be an issue if the front camber is only -1.5 degrees. I'm sure you will be ready for more mods in the near future.

1 other thing I want to mention: If you do decide to get proper camber plates you should really upgrade your rear sub-frame bushings at the same time. That is something that will affect the break away characteristic at the rear of the car.
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      08-04-2017, 11:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
Dinan camber plates together with M3 front arms may be a small help with more camber (Not great, but usable for a few track days). It will have less understeer and be better to drive. Tire wear on the outside shoulder of the front tire will still continue to be an issue if the front camber is only -1.5 degrees. I'm sure you will be ready for more mods in the near future.

1 other thing I want to mention: If you do decide to get proper camber plates you should really upgrade your rear sub-frame bushings at the same time. That is something that will affect the break away characteristic at the rear of the car.
I have the whiteline 2-piece bushings standing by to install...

Will the Dinan camber plate not do greater than -1.5? My main reason for doing that was that there is no rattle or noise with them like other adjustable camber plates.
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      08-04-2017, 11:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
I have the whiteline 2-piece bushings standing by to install...

Will the Dinan camber plate not do greater than -1.5? My main reason for doing that was that there is no rattle or noise with them like other adjustable camber plates.
I haven't used them so I can't say with good authority.

I think it depends on the ride height. At stock height I guess you will get about -0.7 from M3 arms, -0.7 from Dinan camber plates, and maybe -0.3 from removal of the alignment pins. If you lower the suspension you will get more -ve camber too (as measured in static conditions). A lot of people have lowering springs in combination with the Dinan plates and M3 front arms.
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      08-05-2017, 12:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
I haven't used them so I can't say with good authority.

I think it depends on the ride height. At stock height I guess you will get about -0.7 from M3 arms, -0.7 from Dinan camber plates, and maybe -0.3 from removal of the alignment pins. If you lower the suspension you will get more -ve camber too (as measured in static conditions). A lot of people have lowering springs in combination with the Dinan plates and M3 front arms.
Thx. Well, I know I don't have the budget to do a whole suspension mod this year. Was considering a GC setup. Maybe I just get the GC camber plates now and the rest later. My biggest concern for the camber plates really is noise...I have read a lot of them are noisy. The Dinan's are known to not have additional noise. This is still going to be a street car also...sigh. Compromises, compromises...
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      08-06-2017, 03:38 AM   #14
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Camber plates will make your wheel and tire selection a bit easier as you can fit a bigger front wheel. At least aim to fit either 245/40/17 or 235/40/18 front tire. Probably on a wheel that is 8.5" wide with ET40 offset.

Wheel selection is difficult for the rear because not many wheels are available with the ideal ET50 to ET52 rear offset. With ET45 rear wheel you will need some fender rolling for a 255 tire such as Advan AD08. Stock 18x8.5" ET52 rear wheels are an option if you don't mind running a mismatched set of front and rears.
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      08-06-2017, 08:50 PM   #15
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These look like they would fit...any thoughts on e46 wheels on 1er? Biggest worry would be clearing the brakes...

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/w...250550019.html
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      08-06-2017, 09:12 PM   #16
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Or these! https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/w...251219888.html
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      08-07-2017, 03:39 AM   #17
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The Style 68 look interesting. I have seen them on 128i, but not totally sure about the 135i brakes. However the 7.5" wide front wheel is a bit too small IMO. As long as the rear will fit it seems worth looking at. My suggestion is to replace the front wheels with 17x8.5" ET40 wheel such as TR Motorsport C2 from Tirerack. The wheels appear to be hubcentric without any centering rings according to the 'included hardware' section of the tirerack page. I would put 245/40/17 front, 255/40/17 rear. Ideally chose a tire like Yokohama AD08R that has stiff sidewalls. I'm not entirely confident the front 245 would fit with only Dinan camber plates, but may be ok with a roll of the front fenders.

If you go for the 18" wheels I have some doubt about the ET47 offset of the front wheels. You will be able to fit 225/40/18 front tire and 245/40/18 rear with no trouble at all. With enough camber and a 10mm front spacer you could go for 235/40/18 front and 255/35/18 rear tires on those wheels. I like the first option of the mixed set Style 68 rear and C2 front wheels better as it doesn't need to use spacers and probably a bit easier to fit.

Last edited by John_01; 08-07-2017 at 03:47 AM..
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      08-07-2017, 07:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
The Style 68 look interesting. I have seen them on 128i, but not totally sure about the 135i brakes. However the 7.5" wide front wheel is a bit too small IMO. As long as the rear will fit it seems worth looking at. My suggestion is to replace the front wheels with 17x8.5" ET40 wheel such as TR Motorsport C2 from Tirerack. The wheels appear to be hubcentric without any centering rings according to the 'included hardware' section of the tirerack page. I would put 245/40/17 front, 255/40/17 rear. Ideally chose a tire like Yokohama AD08R that has stiff sidewalls. I'm not entirely confident the front 245 would fit with only Dinan camber plates, but may be ok with a roll of the front fenders.

If you go for the 18" wheels I have some doubt about the ET47 offset of the front wheels. You will be able to fit 225/40/18 front tire and 245/40/18 rear with no trouble at all. With enough camber and a 10mm front spacer you could go for 235/40/18 front and 255/35/18 rear tires on those wheels. I like the first option of the mixed set Style 68 rear and C2 front wheels better as it doesn't need to use spacers and probably a bit easier to fit.
Thx, John. So, are the older BMW wheels not hubcentric? I kindof assumed they were, but maybe not?

I am leaning toward the 18" simply due to brakes, as you mentioned. Also...aren't the stock wheels ET49 in the front? I figured ET47 would be close enough.

I may go see both sets this week.
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      08-07-2017, 08:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Thx, John. So, are the older BMW wheels not hubcentric? I kindof assumed they were, but maybe not?

I am leaning toward the 18" simply due to brakes, as you mentioned. Also...aren't the stock wheels ET49 in the front? I figured ET47 would be close enough.

I may go see both sets this week.
Stock wheels are hubcentric. I think the TR Motorsport C2 wheels are hub centric too.
A lot of the aftermarket wheels from Tirerack are sold with plastic hub-rings. Not really suitable for track use IMO.
Sometimes aluminum hub-rings are available as an option. Better to contact them and ask if you have concerns about that.

ET47 or ET49 will be ok with 225/40/18. 235 track tire it will be close to rubbing on the strut and some other places depending how much camber you dial in and how much steering lock you use.
ET40 to ET37 is more ideal when you get to full track-mode camber setting with larger tire sizes.
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      08-07-2017, 08:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Wow...and no rubbing? No offense, but this doesn't track with a LOT of other posts on the topic I have read. What front camber are you running? I really want this to be true!
None taken. Camber was stock; even had pins in still. Good luck!

When you lower the car; yes the 255 have a bit more trouble fitting. If you are at (or a bit lower) than stock height, you'll be fine. Just depends on a lot of factors.
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      08-07-2017, 11:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
Stock wheels are hubcentric. I think the TR Motorsport C2 wheels are hub centric too.
A lot of the aftermarket wheels from Tirerack are sold with plastic hub-rings. Not really suitable for track use IMO.
Sometimes aluminum hub-rings are available as an option. Better to contact them and ask if you have concerns about that.

ET47 or ET49 will be ok with 225/40/18. 235 track tire it will be close to rubbing on the strut and some other places depending how much camber you dial in and how much steering lock you use.
ET40 to ET37 is more ideal when you get to full track-mode camber setting with larger tire sizes.

So I now have style 135 wheels on my 135...I kinda like the symmetry. And they fit, but you were absolutely right about the front...about half a pinky-width of clearance with the 18x8 ET47 with 225 width. Rear has plenty of room with 255 width on 18x8.5 ET50. The best part? The tires should last though my remaining track days for the year! They are only ContiDWS but, from my perspective they are a step up from the Dunlop runflats and are both 10cm wider. And they apparently have working TPMS, because my car didn't alarm when I switched the wheels. (UPDATE: this isn't correct...alarm finally came in). Amazing deal for $550 IMO. Was a retired gentleman who simply got new wheels for his 330i and didn't need these anymore. Pics are below. Next season I'll get the RE71's.

Do you think I should just go ahead and get 10mm spacers for the front now? I did a test drive and heard no rubbing but things move when they compress...




Rear clearance



Front clearance straight on



Front clearance turned out



Front tread



Rear tread

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Andy

'12 E82-PS2,Stoptechs,Clubsports+M3 bits,Accusump,Wagner DP+EVO III FMIC,ERCP,BMS Intake,Mason Strut Bar,Wedge Tune

Last edited by AndyW; 08-14-2017 at 11:29 PM..
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      08-08-2017, 12:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Do you think I should just go ahead and get 10mm spacers for the front now? I did a test drive and heard no rubbing but things move when they compress...
That's pretty cool! Good buying as the wheels fit well and look great on your car. The all season tires may be quite slippery on the track, but I never tried it.

If you add spacers now, it might contact your fenders at full steering lock. Personally I'd wait until the camber plates are in.
With 10mm spacer you need to be sure your wheel hub flange doesn't protrude too far. If the hub flange sticks out by more than that, it probably needs to be filed or ground slightly so the spacer will fit completely flush with the hub surface. Its a matter of test fitting the spacers and measuring if possible.

See Turner Motorsport have a warning about this issue:
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...tions/?pdk=BAE
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