Strange Winter Tire Tread Deformation

Fleethammer · 01-09-2012, 11:32 AM

I bought a set of four 205/50/17, XL load rating Conti Extreme Winter Contacts from Tire Rack about a month and half ago. Checking my tire pressures the other day, I noticed that the rear tread blocks appear to be permanently deformed. They are bent backwards and the sipes are open. See pics below of front and rear to get an idea of how noticeable it is. I've never seen this before on any winter tire I've even owned. Not sure what could be causing this since other than the occasional spirited acceleration into traffic, I have taken it pretty easy on these things. The last picture is of the front, which shows that they are still like new. I have about 1500 miles on them and there is no noticeable wear other than this.

aerobod · 01-09-2012, 11:16 PM

Sprited driving on a winter tyre in warm temperatures will cause that amount of wear, as the tread blocks soften and massively distort. It really is about overheating the rubber when the tyre is not in it's optimum temperature range. My son and I managed to overheat a set of Dunlop Star Spec summer tyres on my Z4M at autocross this summer when the temperature was 35°C (95°F). We wore away 40% of the tyre tread in about 24km (15 miles) of runs with beads of the tread rolled from the edges of the tread blocks into the grooves between the blocks.

Fleethammer · 01-10-2012, 09:37 AM

Thanks, but I definitely don't drive these in a spirited fashion. About the most abuse these see is when I get on it to merge onto the highway. I understand that warmer, dry weather is not good for the life of winter tires, and as such I have driven so slowly since putting these on that it has actually started to annoy me. I really wanted my winter setup to last three years, that's why I've babied them.

I'm curious if this will cause issues with traction when we finally get snow?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerobod

Sprited driving on a winter tyre in warm temperatures will cause that amount of wear, as the tread blocks soften and massively distort. It really is about overheating the rubber when the tyre is not in it's optimum temperature range. My son and I managed to overheat a set of Dunlop Star Spec summer tyres on my Z4M at autocross this summer when the temperature was 35°C (95°F). We wore away 40% of the tyre tread in about 24km (15 miles) of runs with beads of the tread rolled from the edges of the tread blocks into the grooves between the blocks.

Järppä · 01-10-2012, 09:45 AM

Which direction they are sipes open, to forward where tyre rotates when you drive forward or backwards. They should be backward "open" because it rotates forward so sipes elapse more of the front of sipes.

But you can check is every tyre right way on the wheel, friction tyres have allmost allways rotate direction so when you assembly tyre's on wheel you have to take a look that every tyre is right way. 2 right, 2 left. There is arrow in sidewall or color dot's inner and outer sidewall or text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleethammer

I'm curious if this will cause issues with traction when we finally get snow?

No, if your location weather has been under 10 degrees celsius. Those tyre's will work right after there is 7 degrees.

When you have new friction tyre's or studded tires they should get about 500 km peaceful driving first so tyres settle and they give best traction.

Fleethammer · 01-10-2012, 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=Järppä;11121539]Which direction they are sipes open, to forward where tyre rotates when you drive forward or backwards. They should be backward "open" because it rotates forward so sipes elapse more of the front of sipes.

They "point" backwards. In other words, the tread is deformed in the direction of travel, which makes sense since I drive forward most of the time

But you can check is every tyre right way on the wheel, friction tyres have allmost allways rotate direction so when you assembly tyre's on wheel you have to take a look that every tyre is right way. 2 right, 2 left. There is arrow in sidewall or color dot's inner and outer sidewall or text.

Tires are definitely mounted correctly. There is an outside to the tire, but they are not directional, which is nice!

I'm thinking it's the torque that simply crushed these things. The tread on these tires was probably the softest I've ever seen on a winter tire. Reviews of this tire, particularly from 1er owners, were not favorable as far as driving dynamics. Reviewers said the tires did their job well as far as winter tires go, but outside of deep snow or ice, made the car feel very unstable, to the point of being dangerous. Of all the winter tires I've owned, I would have to say these have been the worst as far as the squirmy feeling, but I kept them as the price was good and by most accounts, they deliver when the white stuff falls. I felt that driving slow for three or four months was a fair tradeoff for keeping my car in one piece. Since we have not had an inch of snow all winter here, I have to say I so regret buying these instead of more performance-oriented runflat snows.

Dackelone · 01-10-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleethammer

I bought a set of four 205/50/17, XL load rating Conti Extreme Winter Contacts...

Fleethammer - a strange question but are these tires unidirectional? Maybe they were mounted backwards - on your alloys? Check the tire sidewalls.

Also... our cars put out so much power. Its not that hard to see some wear from soft snow tires. Espcially if the weather is warm and your giving the car some "gas/power". I am amazed on how fast my car goes thru (rear)tires.

chachacha28 · 01-10-2012, 02:01 PM

they look feathered, which is usually a problem with the vehicles toe? is there any reason the alignment would be out of whack? recent modifications? I'd get the alignment rechecked just to be safe.

Dackelone · 01-10-2012, 02:14 PM

^^^Good point. On my car, I had the aligment checked and the LR toe was way off. The alignment made a big difference in the way the car tracked at very high speeds (over 130 mph). Post alignment the car was less twitchy. Alignments are needed from time to time. At least to double check there is no problem with the suspension.

Fleethammer · 01-10-2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Fleethammer - a strange question but are these tires unidirectional? Maybe they were mounted backwards - on your alloys? Check the tire sidewalls.

No, they aren't directional tires, which is another reason I bought them- square setup too so I can rotate them without issues. They are definitely mounted correctly as well, no question about that.

Also... our cars put out so much power. Its not that hard to see some wear from soft snow tires. Espcially if the weather is warm and your giving the car some "gas/power". I am amazed on how fast my car goes thru (rear)tires.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezeedee

they look feathered, which is usually a problem with the vehicles toe? is there any reason the alignment would be out of whack? recent modifications? I'd get the alignment rechecked just to be safe.

No mods to the suspension, brakes, etc. It may be hard to tell from the pictures, but there isn't any "wear" per se. The tires only have about 1500 miles on them, if that. The best way to describe what is going on is to say the tread blocks look "bent" or crushed straight backwards, like they were made of clay and the first time I hit the gas, they were "smooshed". The trailing edge of each individual tread on a block fold under the leading edge of the next tread, and so on. They would literally be folded on top of each other, if it weren't for the sipes. The tread is still very pliable though. I can move it around with my fingers with no problem, it's just stuck like this. I don't think it melted from heat since I don't do burnouts and it has not been warmer than 50 degrees since they were put on.

As for any alignment issues, with the few miles I've driven, coupled with the slow speeds, I can't see this really happening, even if the alignment was way off. I bought the car in late July as a CPO, and it tracks perfectly. The brand new OEM run flats the dealer put on it made it through some hard driving in the summer and fall just fine with normal, even wear. There is literally no scrubbing, feathering, or inside or outside edge wear. I'm really starting to think that these tires are not up to the task for this application.

aerobod · 01-10-2012, 11:01 PM

With 205mm wide rear winter tyres (that are not performance orientated, such as Michelin PA3 or Pirelli Sottozero tyre), in above freezing temperatures, using the torque of the 135i will flex the tread blocks until they are pressed firmly into the adjacent block and wear off the edge that is flexed into the road, as you describe.

If you have seen the traction control light flash more than a couple of times or just used full throttle every so often with this size and type of winter tyre, I'd be surprised not to see this amount of uneven wear within 2000km or so on a 135i. Probably 10,000km (6,000 miles) will be the maximum usable tyre life (4mm minimum tread depth).

Lubo · 01-11-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleethammer

No mods to the suspension, brakes, etc. It may be hard to tell from the pictures, but there isn't any "wear" per se. The tires only have about 1500 miles on them, if that. The best way to describe what is going on is to say the tread blocks look "bent" or crushed straight backwards, like they were made of clay and the first time I hit the gas, they were "smooshed". The trailing edge of each individual tread on a block fold under the leading edge of the next tread, and so on. They would literally be folded on top of each other, if it weren't for the sipes. The tread is still very pliable though. I can move it around with my fingers with no problem, it's just stuck like this. I don't think it melted from heat since I don't do burnouts and it has not been warmer than 50 degrees since they were put on.

As for any alignment issues, with the few miles I've driven, coupled with the slow speeds, I can't see this really happening, even if the alignment was way off. I bought the car in late July as a CPO, and it tracks perfectly. The brand new OEM run flats the dealer put on it made it through some hard driving in the summer and fall just fine with normal, even wear. There is literally no scrubbing, feathering, or inside or outside edge wear. I'm really starting to think that these tires are not up to the task for this application.

I've experienced something similar but not really as quickly as you. I've used 225/40/18 tire on OEM wheels. My tires of choice were Blizzaks though. I wore out most of the thread withing first year as I loved how easy it was to spin tires in 2nd gear during acceleration. With careful throttle application I barely got them to last 3 winters and that was only because I was able to rotate them.

And don't be so sure about CPO and alignment. I just turned in my lease. I was running camber plates up front. I've removed them just before turning in the car. The car is still tracking straight and there isn't any scrubbing noticeable even though I know that the front toe is completely out of whack.

Fleethammer · 01-12-2012, 08:57 AM

Well I finally got to try these out in winter weather. We had about 3 inches of wintry mix for the morning commute. Not the deepest stuff, but enough that if the summer tires were on I would be in trouble. I have to say these tires are absolute rockstars in the snow/ice. I drove with DSC completely off and barely had any traction issues. It takes a good amount of effort to unhook the car from the road, and in a straight line they just grip and go. It would be nice if I can get them to last two winters now!

RimasRS · 01-12-2012, 03:02 PM

Well I think those are really soft compound tires and it is normal to see them like that...

Järppä · 01-13-2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleethammer

It takes a good amount of effort to unhook the car from the road, and in a straight line they just grip and go. It would be nice if I can get them to last two winters now!

Don't worry, i say that you can drive two or three winter season whit those tyres. Grip will loss when tyres aging because rubber will dry.

Five years old friction tyres are horrible when weather is lots of snow and freeze.

gunnerxq · 02-02-2017, 09:29 AM

I know this is an old thread but what happed to your snow performance with that kind of wear? My hakkapalitta R2 are doing the same in the rear. It'sprobably due to warmer temperatures and accelerating sometimes.

iminhell1 · 02-02-2017, 04:27 PM

I would imagine it went to shit. It's the square edges that make a snow/ice tire good. Once the edges are rounded the tires grip is greatly reduced.

Also keep in mind that the XL load rating is not universal. It's simply a heavier load vs the Standard Load version of the tire.
The OP's tires really look like the load rating, even though XL, is not correct and on the light side. Finding a tire with more capacity would probably be a good option.

01-09-2012, 11:32 AM	#1
Fleethammer Enlisted Member 3 Rep 49 Posts Drives: 2008 AW/CR 135i Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Here iTrader: (3)	Strange Winter Tire Tread Deformation I bought a set of four 205/50/17, XL load rating Conti Extreme Winter Contacts from Tire Rack about a month and half ago. Checking my tire pressures the other day, I noticed that the rear tread blocks appear to be permanently deformed. They are bent backwards and the sipes are open. See pics below of front and rear to get an idea of how noticeable it is. I've never seen this before on any winter tire I've even owned. Not sure what could be causing this since other than the occasional spirited acceleration into traffic, I have taken it pretty easy on these things. The last picture is of the front, which shows that they are still like new. I have about 1500 miles on them and there is no noticeable wear other than this. Attached Images
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01-09-2012, 11:16 PM	#2
aerobod Car Geek 3621 Rep 3,591 Posts Drives: Caterham R500, M2-G87, Macan S Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Calgary iTrader: (0)	Sprited driving on a winter tyre in warm temperatures will cause that amount of wear, as the tread blocks soften and massively distort. It really is about overheating the rubber when the tyre is not in it's optimum temperature range. My son and I managed to overheat a set of Dunlop Star Spec summer tyres on my Z4M at autocross this summer when the temperature was 35°C (95°F). We wore away 40% of the tyre tread in about 24km (15 miles) of runs with beads of the tread rolled from the edges of the tread blocks into the grooves between the blocks.
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01-10-2012, 10:40 AM	#5
Fleethammer Enlisted Member 3 Rep 49 Posts Drives: 2008 AW/CR 135i Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Here iTrader: (3)	[QUOTE=Järppä;11121539]Which direction they are sipes open, to forward where tyre rotates when you drive forward or backwards. They should be backward "open" because it rotates forward so sipes elapse more of the front of sipes. They "point" backwards. In other words, the tread is deformed in the direction of travel, which makes sense since I drive forward most of the time But you can check is every tyre right way on the wheel, friction tyres have allmost allways rotate direction so when you assembly tyre's on wheel you have to take a look that every tyre is right way. 2 right, 2 left. There is arrow in sidewall or color dot's inner and outer sidewall or text. Tires are definitely mounted correctly. There is an outside to the tire, but they are not directional, which is nice! I'm thinking it's the torque that simply crushed these things. The tread on these tires was probably the softest I've ever seen on a winter tire. Reviews of this tire, particularly from 1er owners, were not favorable as far as driving dynamics. Reviewers said the tires did their job well as far as winter tires go, but outside of deep snow or ice, made the car feel very unstable, to the point of being dangerous. Of all the winter tires I've owned, I would have to say these have been the worst as far as the squirmy feeling, but I kept them as the price was good and by most accounts, they deliver when the white stuff falls. I felt that driving slow for three or four months was a fair tradeoff for keeping my car in one piece. Since we have not had an inch of snow all winter here, I have to say I so regret buying these instead of more performance-oriented runflat snows.
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01-10-2012, 02:01 PM	#7
chachacha28 NCOIC of Kickin It 78 Rep 946 Posts Drives: 08 135i "Simona" Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Great Falls MT iTrader: (1)	they look feathered, which is usually a problem with the vehicles toe? is there any reason the alignment would be out of whack? recent modifications? I'd get the alignment rechecked just to be safe.
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01-10-2012, 02:14 PM	#8
Dackelone European Editor 10539 Rep 22,992 Posts Drives: N54 e82 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bayern, Germany iTrader: (1)	^^^Good point. On my car, I had the aligment checked and the LR toe was way off. The alignment made a big difference in the way the car tracked at very high speeds (over 130 mph). Post alignment the car was less twitchy. Alignments are needed from time to time. At least to double check there is no problem with the suspension.
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01-10-2012, 11:01 PM	#10
aerobod Car Geek 3621 Rep 3,591 Posts Drives: Caterham R500, M2-G87, Macan S Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Calgary iTrader: (0)	With 205mm wide rear winter tyres (that are not performance orientated, such as Michelin PA3 or Pirelli Sottozero tyre), in above freezing temperatures, using the torque of the 135i will flex the tread blocks until they are pressed firmly into the adjacent block and wear off the edge that is flexed into the road, as you describe. If you have seen the traction control light flash more than a couple of times or just used full throttle every so often with this size and type of winter tyre, I'd be surprised not to see this amount of uneven wear within 2000km or so on a 135i. Probably 10,000km (6,000 miles) will be the maximum usable tyre life (4mm minimum tread depth).
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01-12-2012, 08:57 AM	#12
Fleethammer Enlisted Member 3 Rep 49 Posts Drives: 2008 AW/CR 135i Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Here iTrader: (3)	Well I finally got to try these out in winter weather. We had about 3 inches of wintry mix for the morning commute. Not the deepest stuff, but enough that if the summer tires were on I would be in trouble. I have to say these tires are absolute rockstars in the snow/ice. I drove with DSC completely off and barely had any traction issues. It takes a good amount of effort to unhook the car from the road, and in a straight line they just grip and go. It would be nice if I can get them to last two winters now!
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01-12-2012, 03:02 PM	#13
RimasRS Colonel 85 Rep 2,438 Posts Drives: BMW X3 SD Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Europe iTrader: (0)	Well I think those are really soft compound tires and it is normal to see them like that...
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02-02-2017, 09:29 AM	#15
gunnerxq Lieutenant Colonel 213 Rep 1,780 Posts Drives: e90 "325i" Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New York iTrader: (1)	I know this is an old thread but what happed to your snow performance with that kind of wear? My hakkapalitta R2 are doing the same in the rear. It'sprobably due to warmer temperatures and accelerating sometimes. __________________ Koni special active red, eibach pro-kit springs, Remus exhaust, stage 3 intake manifold,Stage 2 AA tune, BMW Short shift kit. Silicon intake pipe. M3 control arms front, M3 rear. ECS trailing arm with whiteline bushings. Purple powerflex subframe bushings. Yellow power flex upper shock mounts. Single mass flywheel OE weight.
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02-02-2017, 04:27 PM	#16
iminhell1 C2H5OH 3915 Rep 2,144 Posts Drives: 2010 SG 135i auto Join Date: May 2015 Location: Darwin, MN iTrader: (1)	I would imagine it went to shit. It's the square edges that make a snow/ice tire good. Once the edges are rounded the tires grip is greatly reduced. Also keep in mind that the XL load rating is not universal. It's simply a heavier load vs the Standard Load version of the tire. The OP's tires really look like the load rating, even though XL, is not correct and on the light side. Finding a tire with more capacity would probably be a good option.
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