Warranty is Gone

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Mad Dragon

The MAP manipulation code is specifically designed to be set when aftermarket "tuners" are installed, so the failure was caused by his parts.

He removed federally mandated emissions control equipment and altered the engines operation parameters beyond what the car was designed for,what did you expect to happen?:iono:

There are so many heartless people on this forum, and crap like this pisses me off. You don't even have an N54, so you'd do the whole site a favor if you'd freaking read. HPFP failures are rampant with this engine. If he did something stupid like roast the clutch, overspin and kill a turbo, or detonate and damage the engine, of course the repair should be on him. Being that he did not, its asinine they won't fix the pump IMO.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Initially the service guy tried that, and that's where things got a little nasty. I told him it was my understanding that the service is something that's included in the purchase of the car (which it is), and has nothing to do with the warranty. I was prepared to raise hell if he wanted to stick to that position, but he backed off of it and agreed to do it, and look at the other issue I was having (even though they did a half assed job of it).

The included service is something they advertise as a benefit of buying a BMW, and they really don't have any right to deny it, short of you altering one of the service items with something aftermarket, like changing the air filter for example.

I would pop a gasket if they tried to take away my free service, but then again, I don't trust them to NOT void my warranty, so I've been changing my own oil.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

:w00t:

I considered the trade in aspect of this whole thing when it was happening. It's the most compelling reason for fighting them honestly. The thing is, I usually keep a car about three years, and I put above average miles on them. That means that by the time I sell it or trade the warranty will be up anyway.

If I decided to fight them, it would mean I would have to stay in town any time I had to meet with someone (attorney, arbitrator, manager, ect.) and that's hard for me to do right now. Besided that, I make enough money in a week on the road to cover the expense of the fuel pump repair, and I'll do it myself anyway, so all I'll have to pay for is parts.

As for the dealer, I agree with you completely. The rest of the service was horrible anyway. The car is covered with swirl marks from where they washed it. It looks like it was wiped down with a dirty shop rag. It also smelled like gas inside the car for several days, and they didn't resolve the other issues I took it in for. I would have been pissed even without the claim denial, and the satisfaction survey reflects that.

I'll still use them for the normal service (while it's still free) but that's the end of it. There isn't another dealer close enough to me for that kind of stuff.

FYI, that's D Patrick BMW in Evansville.

I'm from Evansville originally, D Patrick sucks. I think a full dedicated BMW dealership might have been cooler about this. I hate that its already happened, because I would love to help in some way.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Alpinweiß

There are so many heartless people on this forum, and crap like this pisses me off. You don't even have an N54, so you'd do the whole site a favor if you'd freaking read. HPFP failures are rampant with this engine. If he did something stupid like road the clutch, overspin and kill a turbo, or detonate and damage the engine, of course the repair should be on him. Being that he did not, its asinine they won't fix the pump IMO.


I would pop a gasket if they tried to take away my free service, but then again, I don't trust them to NOT void my warranty, so I've been changing my own oil.


I'm from Evansville originally, D Patrick sucks. I think a full dedicated BMW dealership might have been cooler about this. I hate that its already happened, because I would love to help in some say.

Thanks for the support. :w00t:

[ronnyek]

honestly I havent dealt with a dealership that wasnt a total bunch of arselochs in a long time.

The people I BOUGHT my 135i from seemed to be rather nice people etc, even talked of chipping it (not my suggestion, but theirs), but too far away for warranty issues etc.

My local bmw dealer here, East Bay... basically if its not a blown engine, dont bother taking it in, they wont do anything for you. not a single thing.

They will sell you a car but good luck keeping up, after that part is done.


Honestly, I've had worse luck with my g35... it literally burns more than 3qts of oil in 3kmi, and they will straight up lie to my face...

I took pictures of dipstick just before I left home black and under empty, got to dealership they took it back... then told me they wanted to show me something, show oil past the full mark and bright yellow...

So... it is what it is, if you break something not covered under warranty, dont give em any more ammo

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by Alpinweiß

There are so many heartless people on this forum, and crap like this pisses me off. You don't even have an N54, so you'd do the whole site a favor if you'd freaking read. HPFP failures are rampant with this engine. If he did something stupid like road the clutch, overspin and kill a turbo, or detonate and damage the engine, of course the repair should be on him. Being that he did not, its asinine they won't fix the pump IMO.

So exactly how much "heart" is required to prove to the dealership/BMW that your tunes didn't cause the HPFP failure? This isn't about being heartless, it is about being rational, and BMW has all the ammo they need if this even comes close to the courtroom. I'm not meaning to insult anyone and am saying this as an oft repeated statement - it is mindless to mod your car and not be ready to face any consequences that may result, even those that you may think had nothing to do with it. The fact remains that the fuel delivery system is likely to be directly impacted by any ECU tune, and you're going to have to be very rich with a lot of time on your hands to prove it otherwise.

[ronnyek]

and I totally agree, you cannot possibly claim it didnt have anything to do with it... while I have heard of HPFP's going out on stocker cars, but its MUCH more prevalent on tuned cars... and honestly... what do you expect BMW to do..

they got a lot of money to throw at lawyers. If it were say the paint problem and not fixing it because you have piggyback thats one thing... I wish you the best, but at the same time I think its going to take a fair amount of luck there too.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by ronnyek

... while I have heard of HPFP's going out on stocker cars, but its MUCH more prevalent on tuned cars... .

I'd like to see data to back that statement up, and I don't mean a forum poll either. People on these forums are much more likely to have a tune than the general population, and the screws up the numbers.

There is simply no reason for a mild tune like the SSTT to cause a fuel pump to be more likely to fail.

[ronnyek]

while I would have liked to think the hpfp was not currently running to its absolute capacity, more fuel means fuel pump working harder... thats an asinine statement like saying...

there's no reason why a little honda civic block should blow when your running 1000 hp through it

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by ronnyek

while I would have liked to think the hpfp was not currently running to its absolute capacity, more fuel means fuel pump working harder... thats an asinine statement like saying...

there's no reason why a little honda civic block should blow when your running 1000 hp through it

That's simply not the case. If it were a matter of the pump being worked harder, why would it only have issues when I'm cruising on the highway at a steady speed for two hours or more?

The problem with my car is bad seals around the in tank fuel pump. There's no way a tune caused that. The asinine statement is saying there is.

Even if it were the high pressure pump, the design would allow the pump to run at free flow without overcurrent damage. There's no way adding enough fuel to produce 30-40Hp over stock is going to cause a failure in the pump. Just an FYI, I'm an electrical engineer with years of high pressure pump experience.

The high pressure fuel pump issue is due to manufacturing defects, not abuse.

[ktdw]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'd like to see data to back that statement up, and I don't mean a forum poll either. People on these forums are much more likely to have a tune than the general population, and the screws up the numbers.

There is simply no reason for a mild tune like the SSTT to cause a fuel pump to be more likely to fail.

+1 I don't think we'd ever get a definitive answer, but it appears the HPFP failures are across the board and do not favor an aggressive tune over stock.

[rocketpop]

I had to replace my fuel pump and I do not have any mods.

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

So exactly how much "heart" is required to prove to the dealership/BMW that your tunes didn't cause the HPFP failure? This isn't about being heartless, it is about being rational, and BMW has all the ammo they need if this even comes close to the courtroom. I'm not meaning to insult anyone and am saying this as an oft repeated statement - it is mindless to mod your car and not be ready to face any consequences that may result, even those that you may think had nothing to do with it. The fact remains that the fuel delivery system is likely to be directly impacted by any ECU tune, and you're going to have to be very rich with a lot of time on your hands to prove it otherwise.

Can you show me another mainstream engine that is plagued with fuel pump failures? Heck, other D.I. turbo cars (stock and modded) don't have fuel pump failures. Its an N54 thing, period, and there is a freaking recall on it. There's one local lady to me that uses the same dealership with a totally stock 07 335i that is on its FOURTH fuel pump at 47k. A week ago she started having super slow starts again. She only runs 93 octane from reputable filling stations.

My asking for "heart" is when people shoot off at the mouth when they have no idea what the F they are talking about.

[larryn]

Let's reel this in folks. Tis the Season, and all... Don't mind a discussion, because that's what we're here for, but lets play a bit nicer.

Thanks

Thinking of changing the title from "Warranty Is Gone" to "Warranty Gone Wild". :biggrin:

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Fighting them will cost more than the fuel pump, and at the end of the day that's still not going to restore the warranty. It's not like I can just go in there and demand they replace the pump at no charge. There's going to be a lawyer and arbitrator involved, and a ton of my time.

I don't think a lot of you guys realize that BMW and the service department at the dealership are two seperate things. The service department doesn't make the call on things like this. BMW does, and the service department doesn't get paid if BMW denies the claim, even if they've already done the work. In the other thread the guy's service department went to bat for him and convinced BMW it was their problem. Mine didn't do that.

Besides that, in my case it doesn't seem to be the HPFP that's bad. The symptoms point more toward the low pressure fuel pump, which isn't a high failure item. They're refusing to diagnose the problem and further than they already have (and wanted to charge me shop time for that) because of the modifications to the ECU wiring and the code that's been set. The next step is to get a lawyer, and it's just not worth the time and money.

Dude thats why in your lawsuit you have BMW pick up your lawyer fees. Because they knew in the first place the pumps are bad and made you waste your time to do the lawsuit. If you have a half enough wit attorney you should not have to come out of pocket or if you did you will be reimbursed. You might not have to even go as far as that because BMW knows if you sue about a faulty pump they will lose, and they will lose money too. So it would be best for them to just pay out the pump. Don't just bend over and take it. They tried this crap on another guy on e90. Telling him the 93 octane had too much ethanol in it and that its not their problem and he should go after the gas station, a couple of threats later they fixed it. If you want to bend over and take it with no lube go ahead, but like I said before it will be a cold day in hell before I pay for a faulty fuel pump. I have seen so many threads of the hpfp going out on more stock cars than modified, so whoever thinks its because he's modded you are so wrong. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[mojo1]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The code isn't the problem.

You, much like the tech I'm dealing with, aren't listening, or don't want to hear the truth. The problem started BEFORE any mods were installed. The car has been doing this since the break in period was finished and I took it on my first road trip.

Expain to me exactly how the mods I have could cause an issue that can be corrected by filling the fuel tank up?

1) Take car in for service/warranty issues before mods? Yes.

2) Don't take car to service with mods that affect warranty. Yes.

3) Indeed the tripped "code" is now the problem, which resulted in the voiding of your factory warranty. Pretty straight forward.:eyebulge:

[ML]

Just as a reminder, the fuel pump issue in this case is believed to be with the supply pump in the fuel tank. Based on a part search on REALOEM, the in-tank pump is the same part number for both the N52 and N54, which is not a high failure rate part like the N54's high pressure fuel pump. In fact, in the case of the N52, the in-tank pump is the fuel pump that supplies fuel to the injectors.

Jeremy's got to be given some credit here. He wasn't trying to hide anything from the dealer. He was just trying to get a pre-existing condition resolved at a time that was convenient for him. Unfortunately, BMW pulled the rug out from under him.

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by Alpinweiß

Can you show me another mainstream engine that is plagued with fuel pump failures? Heck, other D.I. turbo cars (stock and modded) don't have fuel pump failures. Its an N54 thing, period, and there is a freaking recall on it. There's one local lady to me that uses the same dealership with a totally stock 07 335i that is on its FOURTH fuel pump at 47k. A week ago she started having super slow starts again. She only runs 93 octane from reputable filling stations.

My asking for "heart" is when people shoot off at the mouth when they have no idea what the F they are talking about.

First off, you really need to calm down. I in no way insulted anyone with my comment and you are now dropping the f-bomb. I should have added in my last post that I totally agree that the HPFP failure is probably the same failure plaguing non-tuned cars. But again, BMW has proof that his ECU was modded and there aren't enough f-bombs you can throw out there that will negate this. Try to stay civil please.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by mojo1

1) Take car in for service/warranty issues before mods? Yes.

2) Don't take car to service with mods that affect warranty. Yes.

3) Indeed the tripped "code" is now the problem, which resulted in the voiding of your factory warranty. Pretty straight forward.:eyebulge:

Please


He said the code was the "failure". It isn't. The failure is a mechanical part that causes the car to run rough after driving for a while at highway speeds.

The code isn't an indicator of anything but that the car is seeing more airflow than it normally would in stock configuration. It's there for one reason...to detect a tune.

The other code that is indicative of the problem is the misfire code, and that has been set several times before anything was changed on the car. I couldn't duplicate the problem, so I didn't take it in.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Terrance28

Dude thats why in your lawsuit you have BMW pick up your lawyer fees. Because they knew in the first place the pumps are bad and made you waste your time to do the lawsuit..

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure that if you read the terms of the warranty, it doesn't go to court, it goes to an arbitrator, and I'm also pretty sure that BMW is liable for nothing more than the repairs even if I win.

[JKAWB]

who wants to start a company with me that sells warranty's for modified cars? or a modified car insurance program that covers stuff like this? or is there one already?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by larryn

Thinking of changing the title from "Warranty Is Gone" to "Warranty Gone Wild". :biggrin:

Please, everyone take it easy. It would be a real shame if someone came here looking for information on a situation like this and couldn't find it because the thread got locked up.

:drinking:

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

First off, you really need to calm down. I in no way insulted anyone with my comment and you are now dropping the f-bomb. I should have added in my last post that I totally agree that the HPFP failure is probably the same failure plaguing non-tuned cars. But again, BMW has proof that his ECU was modded and there aren't enough f-bombs you can throw out there that will negate this. Try to stay civil please.

I wouldn't consider typing "F", the F bomb, I type and say it as the letter F, but it gets the point across. If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but it was directed at the people being harsh toward him when I feel he wasn't trying to hide anything at all, just trying to cure a pre-existing condition. It sucks they hammered him. If my HPFP fails, I guess I'd put my car back to stock and try, but I'm hoping that I never ever have to take my car into the service department.

[Pirate]

Originally Posted by Mad Dragon

SI B 12 20 08
Engine Electrical Systems June 2008
Technical Service

SUBJECT
N54 - Various Complaints Caused by Aftermarket "Tuning Kits"

MODEL
E90, E92, E93 with N54 engine E60, E61 with N54 engine E82, E88 with N54 engine E71 with N54 engine

SITUATION I
The customer may complain about an excessive muffler noise; "backfiring" into the intake manifold; high (increased) engine oil/fuel consumption; illumination of the "Service Engine Soon Light"; or an excessive battery draw. Fault code "2D18-Manipulation protection, air mass" may be stored in the DME, indicating an implausible airflow. To prevent possible engine mechanical damage due to increased turbocharging pressure, the DME will limit the maximum available torque to the nominal torque value of 400Nm.

SITUATION II
The customer may complain that the vehicle couldn't pass the state emissions inspection, where scanning of the OBD readiness codes is part of the inspection procedure. The GT1/DIS or aftermarket testing equipment indicates that the EVAP system is a "not supported" function of the vehicle's OBD control system. Also, various complaints regarding the cruise control being inactive; the battery draw message displayed in the Control Display; or incorrect muffler flap operation may be encountered.

CAUSE I
An aftermarket engine performance tuning kit, "turbo-tuner control module" (piggyback box), is (or was) installed in the vehicle. Depending on the manufacturer, these modules are plugged directly into the TMAP (Temperature / Manifold Ambient Pressure) sensor or into the DME harness in the E-box. The modified (erroneous) air intake pressure signal supplied to the DME causes an increased turbo boost. In some cases, these modifications also include alteration to the waste-gate vacuum plumbing, which may cause various vacuum supply problems.

CAUSE II
The vehicle's DME was reprogrammed with an aftermarket "N54 performance software calibration". As a result, various DME OBD II-relevant diagnostic functions are inoperative, or their functionalities are limited. Examples include diagnostic of the purge system; map-cooling thermostat; engine temperature sensor; oxygen sensors; and the functionality of the evaporation system and exhaust flaps.

INFORMATION
With the integration level of E89X-08-03-530 or higher (introduced with Progman V29.02.00), any alteration to the TMAP sensor signal ("piggyback box") is detected by setting the DME fault code 2D18 ("Manipulation protection, air mass signal plausibility"). In such a case, the maximum engine torque cannot exceed 400Nm. Aftermarket N54 DME software modifications usually do not change either programmed or basic DME part numbers, so it is not possible to identify this alteration via DIS/GT1 DME identification pages. In certain cases, the MSD80 DME software modifications can be detected by executing DIS/GT1 test module "S1214 NG6OBDII/Read codes" (reading of the OBD readiness codes). If the readiness code for the "Fuel Tank Ventilation" shows "XXX" (instead of "yes" or "no"), this is an indication that evaporation system function is not supported by the DME and the original BMW software was altered. (In this situation, when using the aftermarket scanning tool for checking readiness monitors, the Evaporation System status would be displayed as "Not Supported".) In such a case, the vehicle is not compliant with the federal (EPA) and state (CARB) emissions anti-tampering laws.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Any repair or diagnostic cost incurred by a component and/or system failure as a result of an "N54 aftermarket engine tuning kit" installation is not covered by the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Moreover, modification of the vehicle or installation of any non-approved performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle, which alters the original engineering and/or operating specifications, or which results in damage to the other original components, voids the warranty coverage on the affected original Drivetrain and Emission Control components. In general terms, the BMW warranty on Drivetrain and Emission Control components is void due to a modification where the modification, alteration or installation of a non-approved aftermarket part was responsible for the failure. Please make sure to inform BMW customers considering the purchase of an aftermarket "N54 Engine Tuning" kit of the above legal, technical and warranty implications.

Thanks again Mad Dragon for accurate info, it's clear to me that BMW is going to detect aftermarket computer tuning.